spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 18:47:53
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I'm glad I took a break from X3 to check in...
Mike, I should have put a smiley face with that statement. My sense of humor has not gone well in this thread.
I think Craig has me figured out possibly better than most.
Mike I share those builds expecting nothing in return. I do it because there are so many here that love guitars
and it gives me a chance to learn.....
I'm interested very much in what people do or don't like in a guitar and I'm sure that statements like Rain has made
about Tele's such as not liking the metal plate is made with one intention and I'm all ears. Some may remember I made
a few and that plate was either not there or made of wood. The last one I built the player wanted the metal.
I understand players having a preference and I understand sometimes players have a selective, possibly limited preference...I don't. If I could afford one of every kind
there is I would probably own them...even though I think some of them are butt-ugly.
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spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 18:56:45
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Rain
spacey
(bold) That says it all. A lot of people relate tones to what was used in the past. A lot aren't and any tones that a guitarist are after can be achieved on many, many different guitars.
Times have changed. Choices have grown big time and has opened the door for a player to get whatever it is...based on his abilities and knowledge of creating/hearing tones. Hell it can be done now in the box with a Kay guitar. I know...the tone kings will not agree but I still haven't met one that can tell you what they're hearing unless they've been told.
If the only way to get the sound of a Strat or LP was by using either one.........think about that. Where would PRS, Ibanez etc...be? Not to mention custom made guitars.....man what a list this would be if I continued.
There is much more to it than just tone. Much more. If one wants to know what it's like to play a Strat and what they will sound like playing one there is only one way. If one wants the sound of a Strat there are almost endless ways. Now all the players that have stated that pickups and players are the main factors of tones better be careful if they don't agree.
As for sound... Right off the bat, a classic Les Paul in a Marshall will provide you with a much different starting point then a Telecaster in a Twin Reverb.
And then obviously, there are all the alternatives, which are all as equally valid, depending on your priorities.
LP and Marshall.....Tele and Twin. Different starting points that goes without saying. And now we're not limited in creating those sounds. For those that don't want to play a LP or a Tele but want the sounds there are many alternatives. It's great to have choices for those that want them.
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Rain
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 19:21:51
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spacey
I'm interested very much in what people do or don't like in a guitar and I'm sure that statements like Rain has made about Tele's such as not liking the metal plate is made with one intention and I'm all ears.
As far as the plate is concerned, there is actually absolutely nothing to it other than aesthetics. I can't image how it could be otherwise. It doesn't interfere with the ergonomics. And it's not like I could be morally offended by it or hold a personal grudge against it or believe that it's wrong. Neither am I on a crusade to prove that that metal plate should be removed from every guitar. I simply don't like it. There are obviously many variations of the Telecaster. Some I like better, some not quite as much, some not at all. But for the sake of this discussion, I suggest that we establish that we're talking about the classic type of Telecaster, with the classic attributes and not one of those custom-made variations. Something most people would associate with the name "Telecaster", not a personal take on it. Something like:  Obviously, if you remove that plate that I don't like, that's one less thing not to like for me. If you change that bridge - which I find both uncomfortable and butt-ugly - that's one less thing for me not to like. If you change the headstock, same thing. Pickguard off? All the better. In other word, the further away you move from the traditional Telecaster, the better it is. Like the one I posted earlier. But at the end of the day, I still find the design rudimentary and inelegant. And no amount of tweaking could change that. Because that is simply MY opinion and my tastes, not a universal truth.
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Rain
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 19:23:46
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spacey
Rain
spacey
(bold) That says it all. A lot of people relate tones to what was used in the past. A lot aren't and any tones that a guitarist are after can be achieved on many, many different guitars.
Times have changed. Choices have grown big time and has opened the door for a player to get whatever it is...based on his abilities and knowledge of creating/hearing tones. Hell it can be done now in the box with a Kay guitar. I know...the tone kings will not agree but I still haven't met one that can tell you what they're hearing unless they've been told.
If the only way to get the sound of a Strat or LP was by using either one.........think about that. Where would PRS, Ibanez etc...be? Not to mention custom made guitars.....man what a list this would be if I continued.
There is much more to it than just tone. Much more. If one wants to know what it's like to play a Strat and what they will sound like playing one there is only one way. If one wants the sound of a Strat there are almost endless ways. Now all the players that have stated that pickups and players are the main factors of tones better be careful if they don't agree.
As for sound... Right off the bat, a classic Les Paul in a Marshall will provide you with a much different starting point then a Telecaster in a Twin Reverb.
And then obviously, there are all the alternatives, which are all as equally valid, depending on your priorities.
LP and Marshall.....Tele and Twin. Different starting points that goes without saying. And now we're not limited in creating those sounds.
For those that don't want to play a LP or a Tele but want the sounds there are many alternatives. It's great to have choices for those that want them.
Agreed 100%
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michaelhanson
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 21:10:36
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Spacey, I am actually glad that I missinterpretted you. Yes, maybe more smileys would help. So, Rain...if I was to buy a Tele, it would probably be more along the lines of Leo's later creations. These get me closer to what I like in guitars. I liked this "Black Ice" version the minute I spotted it.  This ones a little to bright for my taste, but I like the maple cap. Incidently, I have always favored maple necks on Fenders or in this case...Fender 2.0 
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craigb
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 21:33:26
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Why are bumpers less popular than fenders these days?
Why are Gibsons less popular than Martinezes these days?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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yorolpal
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 21:53:59
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Let alone One-Hour-Martinizing.
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craigb
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 21:58:23
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yorolpal
Let alone One-Hour-Martinizing.
Wasn't that a Dean Martin special? (Oh wait, that was One Hour Martini-izing. Nevermind.)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Rain
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/01 22:14:39
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MakeShift
Spacey,
I am actually glad that I missinterpretted you. Yes, maybe more smileys would help.
So, Rain...if I was to buy a Tele, it would probably be more along the lines of Leo's later creations. These get me closer to what I like in guitars. I liked this "Black Ice" version the minute I spotted it.
This ones a little to bright for my taste, but I like the maple cap. Incidently, I have always favored maple necks on Fenders or in this case...Fender 2.0
There is something very nice about that black one - and I love this kind of transparent black finish. On top of it, it has the tune-o-matic type of bridge AND the knobs aren't as much in the way. That being said, and that is just my opinion, there's something "unfinished" about the Tele design itself. It's like there is a guitar screaming to get out in that piece of wood but it's been abandoned after a first approximative rough cut. Not much different than something like this:  Again, just my opinion and it's strictly in regards to aesthetics. Maybe it's because the guitar is close to traditional designs, which makes it hard for it not to look like a cheaper/unfinished/mass-produced 2D version of a hollowbody, and not daring enough to stand out on its own as something radically new, like the Strat or the Flying V.
post edited by Rain - 2013/12/01 22:19:56
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rontarrant
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 11:25:37
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I owned a Strat for a couple of years and ended up selling it because I'm not crazy about those single-coil pickups. Sure, I could have got a model with a humbucker, but that's only one. I cut my teeth on a 1970s SG (the three-pickup model; don't remember if it was a 'special' in those days or not) and that's the sound I got used to and came to expect from any electric guitar I played. And why did I go for the SG? Because I never liked the weight of an LP around my neck.
After selling my Strat, since I didn't have the coin for a Gibson and didn't want to settle for a plank-on-a-stick Epiphone (please forgive me, Epiphone fans; I've just never played any Epiphone I've liked, acoustic or electric), I grabbed the cheapest thing I could find that was light weight with humbuckers and reasonable intonation/action: an Ibanez GAX07LTD, the one with the lizard thing on the front. Yeah, it looks weird and most players will likely think it's junk. But it does the job and I like the weight and the sound.
That was two years ago. Last week, I picked up an almost-matching Ibanez short-scale bass, the Mikro (something-something). I hadn't intended the color to be the same and didn't even realize it until I got it home, but again, I like the weight and the sound. The only drawback is the bridge; adjusted right to their limits, two of the strings are still out by about 4 cents; drives me a bit whacko, but to be honest, I can't really hear it and I can live with it for now.
-Ron T. ---------------------------------------------------------- MSI GE72 2QF-247US, 12 gb, Focusrite 6i6, AT-2020 ---------------------------------------------------------- Windows 10 x64, Sonar Platinum
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spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 11:58:26
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If I were to buy a Gibson it would most likely be this one. ES-175 But I'd rather wait and build one. Should be ready to attempt this style within the next two years. I know I can handle the neck and pickups... 
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spacealf
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 15:04:42
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oh, you make guitars? (spacey) Well, to tell you the truth, I am not into guitars that much, just looking around I just find Fenders not as likeable to me as a Gibson guitar is. That is about it. I play synths more. I pour through 248 page manuals with a synth. I find Epiphone guitars cheap enough in price to buy and the quality of the one I did is very good, neck being different though. I will use what I have and it will have to suffice.  And a cheaper priced guitar is a more comfortable guitar in the area of if it takes damage, it is not a heart attack.
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yorolpal
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 15:07:30
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Hopefully I'll have more geetus in my pocket when you're ready for an archtop Michael, ol pal. I'm afraid you've given me an idea;-)
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spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 15:17:33
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spacealf
oh, you make guitars? (spacey)
Well, to tell you the truth, I am not into guitars that much, just looking around I just find Fenders not as likeable to me as a Gibson guitar is. That is about it. I play synths more. I pour through 248 page manuals with a synth. I find Epiphone guitars cheap enough in price to buy and the quality of the one I did is very good, neck being different though.
I will use what I have and it will have to suffice.
And a cheaper priced guitar is a more comfortable guitar in the area of if it takes damage, it is not a heart attack.
LOL...not really...I'm not a luthier but I'm learning as a hobby. I thought after trying to learn how to play them for so many years maybe a could learn how to build them. I played Gibsons for 30 yrs (I guess) and switched to Fenders...but I'd play whatever guitar is close by..they're all guitars. I've played models by each manufacturer that didn't do anything for me. I think as long as you have a guitar in your hands...everything is just fine....and don't have a heart attack!!
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spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 15:19:49
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yorolpal
Hopefully I'll have more geetus in my pocket when you're ready for an archtop Michael, ol pal. I'm afraid you've given me an idea;-)
Well at least you live close enough if it ever happens it'll be a fun trip. and you got me curious...you ain't gonna trade that new Strat for Gibson before ya even get it are you ? LOL
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batsbrew
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 17:46:52
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i've always gone for guitars that were OTHER than gibbys or fenders.
always looking to be different.
could care less about the status quo.
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ampfixer
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 17:58:44
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This has been a really whacky thread. I'm surprised at how strong feelings run over something like guitars. I have owned many in my life, and only in the last couple of years have I assembled my own small collection of instruments. My collection has very expensive guitars and very cheap guitars, the main criteria is usefulness. For example, I had a nice 1970 P bass, and people used to drool over it. The fact is it didn't sound good, so I sold it and kept a Peavey bass that kicked its butt.
Guitars have always been tough to stick with, acoustics in particular. I could never find one that talked to me until I found my old '32 Gibson L00. It looks like crap but just sings. I've got a Gibson R7 goldtop that makes me smile every time I pull it out. My previous Gibson experience in the 70's was so bad that I swore that I'd never again play a Les Paul; until I found the goldtop.
The stratocaster has to be one of the most versatile guitars ever designed. I've owned about 12 in my life and right now I have a custom shop 1960 with a light relic job. The thing is magic. I also have a 1965 Jazzmaster that's 100% original. It's the most valuable guitar I have but I don't use it much since I got the strat.
There's others laying about but that's my list of good guitars. Still on the list is a Gibson SG or Tokai SG. The SG has always called to me but I've never found one that had everything going on. Usually the necks are really mushy because of the neck joint design. I'll keep looking and likely use the Jazzmaster to fund my purchase.
So you can see that I don't have a real brand loyalty, it's more of a loyalty to tone and quality. What all my best guitars have in common are the following:
- Great wood
- Great tone
- Thin laquer finish, I hate poly finishes
- Made using a lot of hand labor
Because of these factors I find that there's a lot of variation between instruments and each one gets evaluated on its own merrits.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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michaelhanson
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 18:19:17
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You can't believe that guitar players are passionate about guitars? :-)
Don't start a thread on "Why Marshall amps are less popular than Fender amps these days"? :-)
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yorolpal
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 19:08:11
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Nope...the Strat came in today and I've been playing for several hours now. While the neck could be a hair smaller...it's just like I remember from my teens. It is dead solid perfect as to build and playability and the pickups are the best I've ever had on a strat...no foolin. Those Japanese fellers really do know how to build em right. I think my solid body quest might be at an end. I'm finally back home. PS: my idea was to have you build me a semi-hollow body...when you're ready...and I have the required semolians:-)
post edited by yorolpal - 2013/12/02 19:10:20
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ampfixer
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 19:34:32
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Great news Ol Pal. Those MIJ strats are some of the best. The Japanese made guitars are far better than some other offshore offerings. The 1980's models are getting to be collectable and they deserve respect. The early Squire models that say Fender Stratocaster by Squire can go for upward of $1k.
Enjoy.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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yorolpal
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 19:50:06
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Whelp...only 250 or so we're made of this ltd edition so I've got my fingers crossed about residual value as well.
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Ham N Egz
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 20:19:54
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disclaimer: I didn't read all 7 pages
but I didn't think guitars were made from poplar wood.. ash maple plywood yes but not popular
I gargoyled poplar wood for guitars and came up with a dizzying amount of conflicting opinios
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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ampfixer
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/02 22:30:37
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Poplar and Basswood are used in addition to the classic tone woods. Guitar building forums have major discussions about woods and their effect on sound. It's a much bigger deal than Fender vs. Gibson. 
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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spacealf
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 00:46:45
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I've seen some Fender guitars (or basses) that seem to have to be beat up first. Finish missing, wood showing, a real kind of wreck. Always reminded me of - the guitar has to be beat up first to sound any good. ??
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yorolpal
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 01:02:34
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I am of two minds on the "relic" phenomenon...first, I can understand a player wanting a true...or as close as possible...vintage axe ( hence my own new MIJ 58 Strat reissue) and second, I can even appreciate the road and time worn look of working players instruments (Tommy Emmanuel's Matons, for instance, when they are like he really likes them, are scratched up and dinged). But I cannot understand having someone else (I.e. The custom shop) "pre-dinging and pre-scarring" your guitar for you. I just don't get it. If it is to fool the audience into thinking you're playing an older and thereby more valuable (or cooler) instrument than you actually are then that says more about you than it does the instrument. Trash your own guitar if you must. But don't force some luthier to do it for you.
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Rain
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 01:06:12
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yorolpal
I am of two minds on the "relic" phenomenon...first, I can understand a player wanting a true...or as close as possible...vintage axe ( hence my own new MIJ 58 Strat reissue) and second, I can even appreciate the road and time worn look of working players instruments (Tommy Emmanuel's Matons, for instance, when they are like he really likes them, are scratched up and dinged). But I cannot understand having someone else (I.e. The custom shop) "pre-dinging and pre-scarring" your guitar for you. I just don't get it. If it is to fool the audience into thinking you're playing an older and thereby more valuable (or cooler) instrument than you actually are then that says more about you than it does the instrument. Trash your own guitar if you must. But don't force some luthier to do it for you.
It's the golden age of fake.
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craigb
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 02:49:49
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spacealf
I've seen some Fender guitars (or basses) that seem to have to be beat up first. Finish missing, wood showing, a real kind of wreck. Always reminded me of - the guitar has to be beat up first to sound any good.
??
Below is Walter Trouts favorite guitar, a '73 Strat. It was originally Artic White(!) but years of playing in smokey bars and you can see what happens. Heck, if I saw this laying by a trashcan, I'd probably leave it there! But, DAMN, does it sound good! (Yes, I'm changing his D string for him - who the heck breaks their D strings??? Well, besides Walter I mean...) 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Rain
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 03:57:04
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Ewww... But I bet it's a gem. How bout Rory's? 
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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spacey
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 06:07:11
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musicman100
disclaimer: I didn't read all 7 pages
but I didn't think guitars were made from poplar wood.. ash maple plywood yes but not popular
I gargoyled poplar wood for guitars and came up with a dizzying amount of conflicting opinios
That Gibson I posted on this page has been one of the hottest jazz guitars for about 60 years - the top and back are laminated Maple/Poplar/Maple.....gargoyle sucks I guess. :)
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spacealf
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Re:why gibson is less popular then fender these days?
2013/12/03 15:19:57
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