Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:19:52
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/03/05 10:36:29
On a more general topic...let's zoom out for a bit.
I've been in this industry for a long time, before home recording was even possible for anyone other than Les Paul and ultra-rich stars. A traditional recording studio was hellishly complicated, so much so that no artist stood a chance without a professional producer, engineer, and often a tape op to make things work.
To me, technology is a necessary evil (albeit an often enjoyable one) that allows translating abstract artistic concepts into something tangible. Although I am facile with technology, I want any tool to be as simple as possible to use. Complication gets in the way of the creative process, and those who have seen my "Recording on the Fast Track" seminar know the physiological basis of why this is so.
Being "professional" is no excuse for a tool to be convoluted. There's an old saying that "a professional makes it look easy." I couldn't agree more.
Long before Style Dials existed, I created about 30 single-knob effects using FX Chains that I could drop into a track during the creative process. I didn't want to have to tweak effects (or even call up presets until I found the right one), I wanted to make music. Those one-knob effects have been tremendously helpful for having a more "finished" sound even when songwriting. (Often during the more analytical mixing phase I'll replace them, but not always.)
As to people who look disparagingly on a new generation of musicians as button-pushers, boot up Traktor with NI's S4 and see how far you get...music is evolving, and I think for the better because new directions in music become additive. Yes, I played Carnegie Hall and produced/engineered many classical albums, and yes, I started doing "button pushing" DJing in 2000. But both of those have helped tremendously in giving me perspective in rock music production and songwriting.
I'm still either stupid enough or smart enough to believe music can change the world, and artistic expression is something that everyone should have the option to enjoy. In my ideal world, we would have world-class professional tools that would be so intuitive you wouldn't need a manual. We're far from that goal, and maybe it's unattainable. But, I certainly won't fault Cakewalk - or the majority of other software manufacturers who strive for the same goal - for trying.
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jpetersen
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:20:18
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@sharke: And yet I get young bands playing self-written material on analog guitars, drums and - OK, digital keys. That's why I have been getting away with using Sonar as just a digital tape recorder for far too long.
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jpetersen
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:21:47
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gbowling
This is awesome! I'm already working on some scripts to do the things I want improved over and over when I'm not working on a project.
Oh. I thought I was the only one thinking in that direction :)
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FanCake 
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:22:31
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Serious post now.
First. If Cakewalk want to do this then I am not arguing with them, there are no doubt benefits and they know what they are doing with it.
I question though the priority and resources put into this. The idea that Cakewalk doesn't know what to do with it's product is perplexing when you read the forums, there are clearly large gaping holes that need to be plugged within it's existing day to day use, the shortcomings are more than clear and have been stated in these forums again and again.
The profile of the user, amateur/professional/whatever, is irrelevant. Most people need to record/edit/mix, some will use midi and some will use just audio and most will use both.That's what a DAW does. It really can't be any more obvious. So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do. When I read the forums it seems pretty clear to me, maybe they should spend more time reading the forums? But I suspect they already do.
Before people think I am jumping on board some sort of anti-cakewalk bandwagon, please read again what I wrote right at the beginning of this post. I am NOT questioning why they did this and I am NOT against this functionality, so this does not need to be explained to me, Cakewalk has explained this more than adequately. My real point is written bold.
It's done now, I'm just pointing out how I feel about it.
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:22:57
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sharke
I think there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions being bandied about with regards to "amateurs versus pros" on this thread and on others in this forum. A lot of the older members like to make references to the "push button crowd" and I think there is this perception of young kids making EDM by dragging a couple of loops around and calling it a day. Really, this could not be further from the truth. You are so very correct.
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irvin
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:36:39
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sharke
I think there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions being bandied about with regards to "amateurs versus pros" on this thread and on others in this forum. A lot of the older members like to make references to the "push button crowd" and I think there is this perception of young kids making EDM by dragging a couple of loops around and calling it a day. Really, this could not be further from the truth. There are young bedroom producers out there who would run rings around many of the old timers among us in terms of audio production, sound design, MIDI programming, use of controllers and automation etc. If you actually follow the scene there are some incredibly intricate productions out there which have utilized very advanced techniques and sound absolutely stunning, even if you don't like the genre. It must be hard, if you're a pro who's spent 30 years tuning his ears in the fields of EQ and compression, to hear 20 year old kids come along and create smooth sounding productions with perfect instrument separation after just 2 or 3 years at it. Part of the reason for this is that with the advent of plugins and DAW's, you have kids who have been able to put in 1000's of hours practice in their bedroom with unlimited "gear" at their disposal as opposed to the older engineers who were limited to whatever time they could get in their studio and whatever limited range of gear they could practice on.
Now granted some of these kids are clamoring for production tools which old farts scoff at. But isn't that just how it's always been? New technology, new production techniques, new genres, the older generation making fun of it. These kids are taking on board all of the audio engineering techniques that you've spent 30 years learning, plus innovating some of their own. Believe me, they want the "pro" features just as much as you....but they want new features as well.
Those kids you reference, would never embrace the one-button approach you describe. The 1000's of hours practice you mention, along with the enormous skill and knowledge acquired as a result, is the very thing the "one-button" approach is trying to portray as useless. Those young people you mention are into "advanced techniques" as you rightfully note. They are the exact type of user the "one-button" approach will alienate.
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:40:25
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irvin
sharke
I think there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions being bandied about with regards to "amateurs versus pros" on this thread and on others in this forum. A lot of the older members like to make references to the "push button crowd" and I think there is this perception of young kids making EDM by dragging a couple of loops around and calling it a day. Really, this could not be further from the truth. There are young bedroom producers out there who would run rings around many of the old timers among us in terms of audio production, sound design, MIDI programming, use of controllers and automation etc. If you actually follow the scene there are some incredibly intricate productions out there which have utilized very advanced techniques and sound absolutely stunning, even if you don't like the genre. It must be hard, if you're a pro who's spent 30 years tuning his ears in the fields of EQ and compression, to hear 20 year old kids come along and create smooth sounding productions with perfect instrument separation after just 2 or 3 years at it. Part of the reason for this is that with the advent of plugins and DAW's, you have kids who have been able to put in 1000's of hours practice in their bedroom with unlimited "gear" at their disposal as opposed to the older engineers who were limited to whatever time they could get in their studio and whatever limited range of gear they could practice on.
Now granted some of these kids are clamoring for production tools which old farts scoff at. But isn't that just how it's always been? New technology, new production techniques, new genres, the older generation making fun of it. These kids are taking on board all of the audio engineering techniques that you've spent 30 years learning, plus innovating some of their own. Believe me, they want the "pro" features just as much as you....but they want new features as well.
Those kids you reference, would never embrace the one-button approach you describe. The 1000's of hours practice you mention, along with the enormous skill and knowledge acquired as a result, is the very thing the "one-button" approach is trying to portray as useless. Those young people you mention are into "advanced techniques" as you rightfully note. They are the exact type of user the "one-button" approach will alienate.
You have completely missed his point. You have sprinted past his point with a blindfold on in fact.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:42:25
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FanCake
So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do.
Someone from Cakewalk, I think it might have been Noel has already explained this. They want to get data from the huge number of users who don't post in the forums too.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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dwardzala
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:46:41
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☄ Helpfulby Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] 2016/03/05 13:19:55
FanCake
Serious post now.
First. If Cakewalk want to do this then I am not arguing with them, there are no doubt benefits and they know what they are doing with it.
I question though the priority and resources put into this. The idea that Cakewalk doesn't know what to do with it's product is perplexing when you read the forums, there are clearly large gaping holes that need to be plugged within it's existing day to day use, the shortcomings are more than clear and have been stated in these forums again and again.
The profile of the user, amateur/professional/whatever, is irrelevant. Most people need to record/edit/mix, some will use midi and some will use just audio and most will use both.That's what a DAW does. It really can't be any more obvious. So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do. When I read the forums it seems pretty clear to me, maybe they should spend more time reading the forums? But I suspect they already do.
Before people think I am jumping on board some sort of anti-cakewalk bandwagon, please read again what I wrote right at the beginning of this post. I am NOT questioning why they did this and I am NOT against this functionality, so this does not need to be explained to me, Cakewalk has explained this more than adequately. My real point is written bold.
It's done now, I'm just pointing out how I feel about it.
This post is more of a statement for others reading the forums, not an explanation directed at FanCake. I don't think its an accurate statement to say the Bakers don't know what they want to do with the product. This is another method of obtaining customer feedback and usage information and probably in ways that customers can't easily explain through forum posts, survey responses or tech support calls. Also, even though this forum is active, it is a very small representation of the population of Sonar users. Limiting feedback collection to just the feature request and problem reports portion of the forums excludes a significant portion of the Sonar population and does the entire Sonar user base a disservice.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:47:18
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FanCake
Serious post now. So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do. When I read the forums it seems pretty clear to me, maybe they should spend more time reading the forums? But I suspect they already do. You raise a valid point, and a serious post deserves a serious answer (although I hope you won't abandon doing the non-serious ones...). First, analytics are not infallible, which your post proves: Akismet again flagged your post as spam, and auto-deleted it (maybe because of your ISP having an entry in a blocklist? I don't know). So again, I had to restore it manually. However, this also shows an advantage of analytics because after I've restored a certain number of posts from the same user that have been auto-deleted, Akismet figures it's legit and leaves you alone - while still deleting the "Babaji Magic Woman Attraction Potion" spam posts. Now, to your point. Noel can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you look at the feature requests, it is an overwhelming amount with varying degrees of importance and feasibility (although some are clear favorites, and hopefully CW is working on those), from a small minority of the user base (i.e., those who frequent the forums). Add that to the multiple random posts in the forum making suggestions, which someone from Cakewalk may or may not see, and you end up with an uncurated mess. Although I don't know what shape the "feedback portal" will take, I assume it's intended to work in conjunction with the analytics to provide the kind of info that analytics can't. I think the main problem for Cakewalk isn't gathering ideas on what to do with the program, but prioritizing what will benefit the greatest number of users, and they believe analytics will help with that prioritization - although it's not a complete solution, which is presumably why Cakewalk will continue to use other methods to gauge user sentiment.
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AllanH
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:47:27
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I hope you'll think through the analytics data you get. Other vendors have done the same thing, and the general conclusion (from my experience), that Analytics is excellent to understand usage, but is useless to determine features.
I few specifics: I wish notation worked well. I gave up on Sonar's notation a while ago and have switched to the PRV. Analytics would indicate that I don't use Notation and that it should not be enhanced. This is exactly the wrong conclusion.
I've seen other vendors switch to a voting system where user-proposals for enhancements are documented and voted on. I think I saw a note about something like that in an eZine a few months back.
I would suggest you focus on what your customers would like instead of what they do currently.
Sonar Platinum, EWHO/D, Spitfire, Miroslav, Pianoteq, ...., Kurzweil.
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 10:56:46
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AllanH
I would suggest you focus on what your customers would like instead of what they do currently. CW has started that analytics are there to supplement the existing methods of gathering information. There is also mention of a feedback portal being introduced. I've gone over the sales stats in this forum for programs with and without staff views, and usage of same. I'm quite sure CW also takes that kind of information into account.
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 11:00:02
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And finally...re the EDM controversy...some might enjoy this article. Meanwhile, I'm off to work on presets for a new expansion pack. I think it's going to be called "Syntronic." I wonder what analytics would make of my use of SONAR in that context...
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komposer
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 11:21:05
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/03/05 11:56:41
Hello Folks,
I don't feel the need to post very often, but I visit nearly everyday and I appriciate the tips, the personalities and the social drama this little corner on the web provides. I don't expect that will change with my decision to NOT install any update which includes this new analytics component. That's just my choice. Think of me however you may.
My user profile includes many of the traits that Noel has outlined earlier in this thread. I'm a gigging musician who has logged many hours as a recording engineer in a major music school while pursuing my music degree, recorded and produced three full length "albums" in the 90's in "pro" studios, and now spend most of my free time learning how to produce music ITB, which includes recording my own and my current band's music.
My other "pays the mortgage" job as a web developer and designer requires a familiarity and comfort with using and understanding analytics. It's part of my world and has been for many years, but this announcement has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. It's so stupid I can only chuckle and shrug my shoulders... "Oh well! Fool me once (Rapture Pro) but not again with this latest joke of an idea. I get it now."
Why does this bother me so much that I'm willing to say this on a public forum? Because I've been a customer since HS 6 and followed the upgrade path up to SPlat 2016 and I feel compelled to speak up as a person and and artist.
For example, imagine you are a person who paints and the person who provides you with art supplies, let's say your canvas', just informed you that these canvas' you enjoy so much now come with a camera that sits on your shoulder and watches you while you paint. Oh sure you can turn it off, but it's on when you sit down to paint, or it isn't if you turned it off. Wait, is it on or off? Did this latest update turn it back on? Cripes, where is that setting again?
My creativity is my private realm until I decide otherwise. There is no way I can support Cakewalk's development if this latest unnecessary feature is implemented.
(edited because the text didn't format correctly)
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 11:43:41
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Oops, accidentally clicked helpful there. Which is not to say it's not a valid perspective.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 11:47:40
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I do think that thing about the camera is a dubious analogy though. I mean, it's not like the analytics are listening to your music.
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sharke
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 11:51:02
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jpetersen
@sharke: And yet I get young bands playing self-written material on analog guitars, drums and - OK, digital keys. That's why I have been getting away with using Sonar as just a digital tape recorder for far too long.
That's true, there will always be bands knocking out great tunes on traditional gear. But music production is far more varied these days. You have artists who mix up blues, R&B, hip hop and EDM in a single track. You have metal bands who incorporate dubstep elements. You have electronica/EDM producers who incorporate jazz fusion (like Floating Points) or distorted rock guitars. Any DAW with an eye on the future will be looking to accommodate the full range of production techniques.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:02:45
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irvin
sharke
I think there are a lot of misconceptions and assumptions being bandied about with regards to "amateurs versus pros" on this thread and on others in this forum. A lot of the older members like to make references to the "push button crowd" and I think there is this perception of young kids making EDM by dragging a couple of loops around and calling it a day. Really, this could not be further from the truth. There are young bedroom producers out there who would run rings around many of the old timers among us in terms of audio production, sound design, MIDI programming, use of controllers and automation etc. If you actually follow the scene there are some incredibly intricate productions out there which have utilized very advanced techniques and sound absolutely stunning, even if you don't like the genre. It must be hard, if you're a pro who's spent 30 years tuning his ears in the fields of EQ and compression, to hear 20 year old kids come along and create smooth sounding productions with perfect instrument separation after just 2 or 3 years at it. Part of the reason for this is that with the advent of plugins and DAW's, you have kids who have been able to put in 1000's of hours practice in their bedroom with unlimited "gear" at their disposal as opposed to the older engineers who were limited to whatever time they could get in their studio and whatever limited range of gear they could practice on.
Now granted some of these kids are clamoring for production tools which old farts scoff at. But isn't that just how it's always been? New technology, new production techniques, new genres, the older generation making fun of it. These kids are taking on board all of the audio engineering techniques that you've spent 30 years learning, plus innovating some of their own. Believe me, they want the "pro" features just as much as you....but they want new features as well.
Those kids you reference, would never embrace the one-button approach you describe. The 1000's of hours practice you mention, along with the enormous skill and knowledge acquired as a result, is the very thing the "one-button" approach is trying to portray as useless. Those young people you mention are into "advanced techniques" as you rightfully note. They are the exact type of user the "one-button" approach will alienate.
I don't think that's true at all. Whilst there is some snobbery in the music production world (and always will be), there is also the attitude that "if it gets the job done then great" whether it be a synth preset that's ideal out of the box, or a compressor preset that works great on vocals without much tweaking. How is the reverb knob on a Fender amp any different than a Style Dial? People have been using "one-button" style effects for decades. I mean how much scope for tweaking is there on your average Cry Baby wah? Pedal goes up, pedal goes down. And be honest, how many times have you created your own reverb preset from scratch?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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FanCake
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:18:12
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Anderton
I think the main problem for Cakewalk isn't gathering ideas on what to do with the program, but prioritizing what will benefit the greatest number of users, and they believe analytics will help with that prioritization - although it's not a complete solution, which is presumably why Cakewalk will continue to use other methods to gauge user sentiment.
FanCake
The profile of the user, amateur/professional/whatever, is irrelevant. Most people need to record/edit/mix, some will use midi and some will use just audio and most will use both.That's what a DAW does. It really can't be any more obvious. So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do. When I read the forums it seems pretty clear to me, maybe they should spend more time reading the forums? But I suspect they already do.
Let us agree to disagree. It seems obvious and common sense at my end what the priorities should be. I can't see how it's difficult to gauge priority at all with the product as it now stands, maybe in 3 or 5 years time perhaps it will become more difficult? And I'm not thinking about what I want, I am thinking critically away from this. I keep reading similar threads over and over again that make perfect sense where the vast majority are in agreement where there are big gaps in everyday essential functionality (bugs and features). They stand out like a sore thumb.Cakewalk as developers should also have their own critical thinking skills when reading feedback, and deciding how it should, or should not, effect the products design.I understand Cakewalk employees use the product for their own music projects as well. Therefore they will or should know the product better than anybody. It doesn't make any sense to me at all that Cakewalk does not know the products shortcomings. People who use the product more than anybody else are the people that should be listened to. These people also want simplicity as well with every day features just like beginners as well. It is possible to design features that are simple to use everyday, which have hidden layers of complexity for others who need to tweak, and still have great workflow that suits everybody (simple but not dumbed down either!). It should not be about X customer profile vs Y customer profile think, that mindset worries me to be honest as it is straight out of a marketing handbook, marketing tends to show distorted realities. Again still saying metrics has it's place, not against it, it is useful. I'm just surprised it became such a priority for a small development team. Bit of a waste of time post, thanks for listening anyway.
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ampfixer
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:23:46
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Most, if not all, the major software packages I have include a check box during the install. It says "would you like to help xxx improve the quality of the product". If you check it then it turns on analytics. I think Cakewalk would be better off if they did this rather than make a huge announcement to say it's coming. The same goes for the LANDR export. Had they just said "hey, now you can directly export to LANDR if you want to use their service", I believe it would have floated by as a non-issue. They seem to delight in bringing the heat upon themselves by advertising new features that really should be non-issues. Analytics, a new export option, a new menu. These are relatively minor changes that Cakewalk turns into major issues. They must like getting kicked every morning. 
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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stevec
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:28:47
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As mentioned before though, these forums do not represent the SONAR user base but rather a portion of it. What if the non-forum regulars aren't looking for the same things as the limited number of posters here? Analytics will hopefully help to clarify that. And if they prove that the majority actually are looking for those same things, then I hope the bakers recognize the importance! It's all speculation until there are some facts to back it up.
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BobF
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:32:27
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Anderton
FanCake
Serious post now. So why is this monitoring a priority, when they must have pretty clear customer feedback here and in support about what to do. When I read the forums it seems pretty clear to me, maybe they should spend more time reading the forums? But I suspect they already do.
You raise a valid point, and a serious post deserves a serious answer (although I hope you won't abandon doing the non-serious ones...).
First, analytics are not infallible, which your post proves: Akismet again flagged your post as spam, and auto-deleted it (maybe because of your ISP having an entry in a blocklist? I don't know). So again, I had to restore it manually. However, this also shows an advantage of analytics because after I've restored a certain number of posts from the same user that have been auto-deleted, Akismet figures it's legit and leaves you alone - while still deleting the "Babaji Magic Woman Attraction Potion" spam posts.
Now, to your point. Noel can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you look at the feature requests, it is an overwhelming amount with varying degrees of importance and feasibility (although some are clear favorites, and hopefully CW is working on those), from a small minority of the user base (i.e., those who frequent the forums). Add that to the multiple random posts in the forum making suggestions, which someone from Cakewalk may or may not see, and you end up with an uncurated mess. Although I don't know what shape the "feedback portal" will take, I assume it's intended to work in conjunction with the analytics to provide the kind of info that analytics can't.
I think the main problem for Cakewalk isn't gathering ideas on what to do with the program, but prioritizing what will benefit the greatest number of users, and they believe analytics will help with that prioritization - although it's not a complete solution, which is presumably why Cakewalk will continue to use other methods to gauge user sentiment.
Seems to me that statistics can be applied pretty easily to establish solid numbers from a small sample. Seriously. I find it difficult to believe that any significantly better info will be gathered by canvasing the entire user base. This is where I fall back to my standard approach in situations like this. If something doesn't make sense, then I obviously don't have all of the information necessary to understand. There is one other possibility, but I happen to believe that The Bakers are a pretty smart bunch. There has to be something bigger than basic time-in-motion analysis going on here. I personally don't believe that Sonar is so far refined and feature rich at this point that this is where the lowest hanging fruit is. But I have been wrong before. BTW, Craig, I stumbled across a utube (2 parts) of Mitch Gallagher interviewing you. I really enjoyed that. The point you made about 60s/70s music being "better" because the musicians had other people dealing with recording was pretty strong, IMO. Maybe THAT is what Cake is trying to tackle. Even that appears on much higher limbs (to me) than a whole bunch of other stuff hanging there in front of us.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:36:34
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John T
I do think that thing about the camera is a dubious analogy though. I mean, it's not like the analytics are listening to your music.
Yes, with the painting analogy it's more like "are you using sable-hair or camel-hair brushes"?
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:40:05
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BobF
There has to be something bigger than basic time-in-motion analysis going on here. I personally don't believe that Sonar is so far refined and feature rich at this point that this is where the lowest hanging fruit is.
That's the thing, I think. If they'd said "hey everyone, we literally can't think of a single thing to add or fix until we get this analytics data", then one could reasonably raise an eyebrow at that. But that's clearly not the case. They seem to be seeking to broaden their understanding of the users, and taking a long term view about methods of improvement.
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:50:32
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ampfixer
Had they just said "hey, now you can directly export to LANDR if you want to use their service", I believe it would have floated by as a non-issue.
The day anything floats by as a non-issue in these forums, I will eat everyone's hats.
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Paul P
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:51:55
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John T
I do think that thing about the camera is a dubious analogy though. I mean, it's not like the analytics are listening to your music.
I guess I'm paranoid. It really bugs me, on principle, that my actions may be recorded, then analyzed. Having my purchases tracked is one thing (and I'm not crazy about that either) but I don't want anyone tracking me. I feel the urge to go back to paper mail, talking to people in person and maybe retiring to the forest to maintain the idea of freedom. To make sure someone isn't looking over my shoulder. The age of terror has led to the age of tracking which has led to everyone terrorizing everyone else. My newest CPAP machine now has a built in cell phone so that my every breath can now be transmitted to the local laboratory for analysis. Needless to say I've turned that function off. On a legal note, say I kill my wife and then lie that I was at a local bar when it happened. After a bit of research, the autorities take me in and say they have proof I was at home at the time because Cakewalk analytics recorded that I clicked the Insert Track button shortly before the neighbours called 911. [I don't have a smart phone, nor do I buy coffee at Starbucks]
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AllanH
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 12:52:14
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ampfixer
They seem to delight in bringing the heat upon themselves by advertising new features that really should be non-issues. Analytics, a new export option, a new menu. These are relatively minor changes that Cakewalk turns into major issues. They must like getting kicked every morning.
I truly encourage Cakewalk to announce features like Analytics ahead of time along with an explanation. I with they'd done the same with LANDR along with a similarly well-written description. They clearly want to improve the product for everyone and are working to find better ways to obtain market research - this is a good thing. Suggestion: If they leave the analytics logs un-encrypted and let us see them before being shipped off, I might support Analytics as I'd know what type of info they are collecting on me.
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Anderton
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 13:08:35
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ampfixer
Most, if not all, the major software packages I have include a check box during the install. It says "would you like to help xxx improve the quality of the product". If you check it then it turns on analytics. I think Cakewalk would be better off if they did this rather than make a huge announcement to say it's coming.
I'd like to think you're right, but remember the "Cakewalk doesn't tell us what's coming up" complaints, and IIRC LANDR was announced the day of the release and that didn't stop people from making a big deal about it. (Perhaps if CW had announced it in advance, CW might have thought "yeah, that's a good point, we should make it a separate installer" although of course the haters would still have hated). Also, if that analytics check box had just shown up, I bet most people would not have checked it. By describing the nature of the analytics, people could make an informed decision about whether they wanted to participate or not. Whatever Cakewalk does, some people (often the same ones) will complain about it. I hope that doesn't deter Cakewalk from trying to be open and transparent for those who appreciate that level of dialog. But to be fair, I doubt that Cakewalk thought this would be anything other than a fairly innocuous "FYI" type of announcement, given that they made it clear that participation is entirely optional, no personal data or other programs are monitored, and if you do choose to participate you can choose to be anonymous or not. I would expect the response to that would be "Okay, thanks for letting us know," not "Cakewalk will use this as a way to dumb down the program and blow off professional users."
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John T
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 13:15:18
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Paul P
On a legal note, say I kill my wife and then lie that I was at a local bar when it happened. After a bit of research, the autorities take me in and say they have proof I was at home at the time because Cakewalk analytics recorded that I clicked the Insert Track button shortly before the neighbours called 911.
Um. Strange example. I'm really not sure what point you're making here.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
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Re: Cakewalk Analytics Coming To SONAR
2016/03/05 13:28:58
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komposer
I don't feel the need to post very often, but I visit nearly everyday and I appriciate the tips, the personalities and the social drama this little corner on the web provides. I don't expect that will change with my decision to NOT install any update which includes this new analytics component. That's just my choice. Think of me however you may.
My user profile includes many of the traits that Noel has outlined earlier in this thread. I'm a gigging musician who has logged many hours as a recording engineer in a major music school while pursuing my music degree, recorded and produced three full length "albums" in the 90's in "pro" studios, and now spend most of my free time learning how to produce music ITB, which includes recording my own and my current band's music.
My other "pays the mortgage" job as a web developer and designer requires a familiarity and comfort with using and understanding analytics. It's part of my world and has been for many years, but this announcement has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. It's so stupid I can only chuckle and shrug my shoulders... "Oh well! Fool me once (Rapture Pro) but not again with this latest joke of an idea. I get it now."
Why does this bother me so much that I'm willing to say this on a public forum? Because I've been a customer since HS 6 and followed the upgrade path up to SPlat 2016 and I feel compelled to speak up as a person and and artist.
For example, imagine you are a person who paints and the person who provides you with art supplies, let's say your canvas', just informed you that these canvas' you enjoy so much now come with a camera that sits on your shoulder and watches you while you paint. Oh sure you can turn it off, but it's on when you sit down to paint, or it isn't if you turned it off. Wait, is it on or off? Did this latest update turn it back on? Cripes, where is that setting again?
My creativity is my private realm until I decide otherwise. There is no way I can support Cakewalk's development if this latest unnecessary feature is implemented.
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Hi komposer, With all due respect I don't think you have done enough research on this subject to make a judgement that it is "dumb". You are of course entitled to your opinion and I guess this would also make the thousands of highly successful companies some of which are giants like apple, google and microsoft also dumb in your opinion. Analytics is not something new - it is widely established to be one of the single most important techniques to improve a product. If anything we are dumb to be so late to be doing this. And regarding your analogy, its not accurate. Our option to turn off analytics is permanent - installing a new update will not lose your preference. There is a very clear toast notification that lets people know whenever analytics is on and every user has the ability to turn it off. I don't see why you would want to not use the product if you can turn it off unless you somehow mistrust Cakewalk. We would never do anything like that since we value our users too much.
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