subtlearts
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:25:10
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: tags
Thank you for helping, but it still doesn't seem to do anything useful.
I've selected all nodes with the envelope tool
Chosen edit/copy from the drop-down menu
Made sure track/bus automation was checked and pressed ok
Moved the cursor to a new position, chosen edit/paste
Again, made sure track/bus automation was checked and pressed ok
And... nothing happens.
Hmmm....I don't know what could be wrong. I just tried it and it works for me here. Maybe someone else can imagine what it is that may be different in your carrying out of this operation?
Otherwise a call to tech support might be able to sort you out.
I think I can help here. Are you using the synth rack? It doesn't work if you've inserted the synth in the synth rack. I recently discovered this myself. I just tested and verified it in 7.02, with the same sound on the same synth with the same controller (Kore). If the synth is inserted in the synth rack, automation will be recorded but CANNOT be copied, pasted or even moved in time, and will not move with the clip if the clip is moved. This makes it almost useless. Same synth, same controller, inserted in an audio track's FX bin and routed, records automation, and you can do what you like with it. Brandon, are you saying that you honestly don't know about this? I was given the impression, from the threads I read on the subject while trying to figure this out, that this bug was VERY well documented and had been submitted dozens of times. Is this not the case? Is it possible that Cake actually does not know about this? This scares me. It's an obvious and gigantic bug in the synth rack implementation. Should I go submit it now?
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dredd i knight
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:26:31
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find it haed to understand the furore that this addition has made since it can be old style or new depending on how one wants to work....
logic had this functionality years ago, and i'm glad to see its replacement (for me) in pc land adapt and grow.
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Twigman
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:26:36
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: Twigman
Automation never moves with its associated clips.
Clip automation will move with the associated clip. Track/Bus types of automation are not actually associated with the clip, but are instead time-based.
Thanks for that - it explains a lot. it would be nice to be able to associate track automation with clips though, wouldn't it?
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crash_3210
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:30:30
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how about the FX-Bin... does it insert MIDI effects or Audio Effects ?
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:31:58
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ORIGINAL: Twigman
ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: Twigman
That's all fine and dandy but is there any facility now to send the same midi data to 2 seperate soft synths or to a soft synth and a hardware synth to create huge layered sounds or is cloning the midi track and reassigning the clone still the only way?
Cloning and re-assigning is is still the only way. Or the layered part can just be recorded all at once of course.
BOO!
I and others have been asking for this for a couple of years now. Are we being ignored?
Is it so hard to implement? - stick a 'MIDI send' on the midi track?
Well I certainly can understand your frustration but i think it is a bit of a leap to suggest you are being ignored. Just because something is not implemented doesn't mean that the feature and the feature requester is being ignored. I think it simply means it was not prioritized high enough in order to make it into release. There's lots of stuff that I would love to see in SONAR - I think that's true of many of us. But decisions must be made. As for how difficult something is to implement...I can't say. I can say from past experience in these matters that it may very well be quite difficult to implement. It's impossible to say for sure without knowing the source code, which I don't. Now as a user I'm wondering... Isn't this also a feature request that has a pretty easy workaround. Right-click/clone track/change output. It seems about as easy as enabling a MIDI send and routing it, no? Either way all I can say is that I'll follow up to make sure it is on the list and perhaps put in a good word when it comes time for it to be a possible inclusion in an update and/or upgrade.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2008/09/23 18:36:31
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:32:11
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ORIGINAL: crash_3210
how about the FX-Bin... does it insert MIDI effects or Audio Effects ?
Audio FX
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:33:59
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ORIGINAL: Twigman
ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: Twigman
Automation never moves with its associated clips.
Clip automation will move with the associated clip. Track/Bus types of automation are not actually associated with the clip, but are instead time-based.
Thanks for that - it explains a lot.
it would be nice to be able to associate track automation with clips though, wouldn't it?
Well yeah maybe a toggle like the PRV has where it moves controller data with the MIDI note. Maybe something like this but for Track Pane clips and the automation in the vicinity of that clip. That may very well work and I'll make the suggestion.
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subtlearts
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:35:22
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Brandon, did you read my post?
Can you try writing some automation to a synth that has been inserted from the synth rack, using the W button in the rack not on the track, and try to copy or paste it?
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John
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:36:23
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Brandon we thank you for the time you have spent here explaining these things.
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Twigman
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:36:28
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
. That may very well work and I'll make the suggestion.
While i've got your attention what about 'midi sends' ?
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Twigman
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:39:34
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
Isn't this also a feature request that has a pretty easy workaround. Right-click/clone track/change output. It seems about as easy as enabling a MIDI send and routing it, no? Either way all I can say is that I'll follow up to make sure it is on the list and perhaps put in a good word when it comes time for it to be a possible inclusion in an update and/or upgrade.
It's not so easy when you have 3 or 4 layered sounds and you edit it unless of course you link them all to the original. It also clutters the screen with duplicated midi tracks.
post edited by Twigman - 2008/09/23 18:41:19
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SongCraft
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:45:32
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Mmmm nice screenshot! Looks pretty sexy to me, I like it, the concept excites me although maybe if there was the ability to add multiple outs within the Instrument Track and to keep it compact which I guess is the idea of having the Instrument Track having display multiple meters thrown in would make the Instr/Tk far less compact but if there was a tab to switch view between controls to meters then that would keep it all nice an compact. Anyway! It's great to see Instr/Trks integrated with the option to switch back to midi + audio track(s)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:49:58
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ORIGINAL: subtlearts
Brandon, did you read my post?
Can you try writing some automation to a synth that has been inserted from the synth rack, using the W button in the rack not on the track, and try to copy or paste it?
I inserted Z3ta+ into the synth rack and wrote OSC1 Fine automation. I then selected it,used file menu "Cut" and then pasted it to a later point in the track. Now the envelope was orphaned mind you and I had to re-assign it, but it did cut and paste to a new location. Note: Please don't be alarmed if there is something I'm not aware of or assume that it is subsequently not known within the circles of Product Mgmt and Development. They collect all kinds of bugs and feature requests from users and testers. I know about what's in my own little sphere of knowledge and that's about all I can account for. 
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:51:25
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ORIGINAL: Twigman
ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
Isn't this also a feature request that has a pretty easy workaround. Right-click/clone track/change output. It seems about as easy as enabling a MIDI send and routing it, no? Either way all I can say is that I'll follow up to make sure it is on the list and perhaps put in a good word when it comes time for it to be a possible inclusion in an update and/or upgrade.
It's not so easy when you have 3 or 4 layered sounds and you edit it unless of course you link them all to the original.
It also clutters the screen with duplicated midi tracks.
I understand. Trying to be helpful...I would put these duplicated MIDI tracks in a folder (although it's likely you've already considered that)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:52:05
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ORIGINAL: John
Brandon we thank you for the time you have spent here explaining these things.
Thanks for saying so John. 
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dreamkeeper
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:54:47
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ORIGINAL: subtlearts
I think I can help here.
Are you using the synth rack? It doesn't work if you've inserted the synth in the synth rack. I recently discovered this myself. I just tested and verified it in 7.02, with the same sound on the same synth with the same controller (Kore). If the synth is inserted in the synth rack, automation will be recorded but CANNOT be copied, pasted or even moved in time, and will not move with the clip if the clip is moved. This makes it almost useless.
Same synth, same controller, inserted in an audio track's FX bin and routed, records automation, and you can do what you like with it.
Brandon, are you saying that you honestly don't know about this? I was given the impression, from the threads I read on the subject while trying to figure this out, that this bug was VERY well documented and had been submitted dozens of times. Is this not the case? Is it possible that Cake actually does not know about this? This scares me. It's an obvious and gigantic bug in the synth rack implementation. Should I go submit it now?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1165546 It never worked, all the way since VSTi automation was introduced in S6. And obviously it never was fixed. Brandon, no offense, but I too find it rather odd that we need to explain this all over again. At one point, after a 7 maintenance update was released, I asked Noel here on the forum if these issues have been addressed. His reply: "not in this update". It was the main reason why I didn't upgrade to 7. So does it work now in S8? werner
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dreamkeeper
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:56:22
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I inserted Z3ta+ into the synth rack and wrote OSC1 Fine automation. I then selected it,used file menu "Cut" and then pasted it to a later point in the track. Now the envelope was orphaned mind you and I had to re-assign it, but it did cut and paste to a new location. Wait... which version, S7 or S8?
"... must've been another of my dreams ..."
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:57:41
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ORIGINAL: dreamkeeper
I inserted Z3ta+ into the synth rack and wrote OSC1 Fine automation. I then selected it,used file menu "Cut" and then pasted it to a later point in the track. Now the envelope was orphaned mind you and I had to re-assign it, but it did cut and paste to a new location.
Wait... which version, S7 or S8?
Version 8
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Twigman
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:59:15
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: John
Brandon we thank you for the time you have spent here explaining these things.
Thanks for saying so John.
I second what John said
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 18:59:31
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ORIGINAL: dreamkeeper
ORIGINAL: subtlearts
I think I can help here.
Are you using the synth rack? It doesn't work if you've inserted the synth in the synth rack. I recently discovered this myself. I just tested and verified it in 7.02, with the same sound on the same synth with the same controller (Kore). If the synth is inserted in the synth rack, automation will be recorded but CANNOT be copied, pasted or even moved in time, and will not move with the clip if the clip is moved. This makes it almost useless.
Same synth, same controller, inserted in an audio track's FX bin and routed, records automation, and you can do what you like with it.
Brandon, are you saying that you honestly don't know about this? I was given the impression, from the threads I read on the subject while trying to figure this out, that this bug was VERY well documented and had been submitted dozens of times. Is this not the case? Is it possible that Cake actually does not know about this? This scares me. It's an obvious and gigantic bug in the synth rack implementation. Should I go submit it now?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1165546
It never worked, all the way since VSTi automation was introduced in S6. And obviously it never was fixed.
Brandon, no offense, but I too find it rather odd that we need to explain this all over again. At one point, after a 7 maintenance update was released, I asked Noel here on the forum if these issues have been addressed. His reply: "not in this update". It was the main reason why I didn't upgrade to 7. So does it work now in S8?
werner
No offense taken, but in fairness no one said it needed to be explained again. I just said I don't recall that being a problem. But thankfully I'm not the one writing the code so I'm not the guy you want remembering that issue anyway.  I'm really hoping someone from dev will pop in and shed some more light, but it's nearly 7pm out there in Boston. My hope is that it has simply been "fixed" in 8. Unfortunately even if that is the case there is still the problem of it orphaning the copied automation. I'll see what I can find out. We're all scrambling a bit here with AES coming up and all.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2008/09/23 19:02:59
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 19:00:02
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ORIGINAL: Twigman
ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: John
Brandon we thank you for the time you have spent here explaining these things.
Thanks for saying so John.
I second what John said
And a second thanks is in order.
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dreamkeeper
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 19:15:20
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
No offense taken, but in fairness no one said it needed to be explained again. I just said I don't recall that being a problem. But thankfully I'm not the one writing the code so I'm not the guy you want remembering that issue anyway. OK, my sincerest apologies anyway - I was just a little miffed that this bug might still be around. But thanks for checking.  My hope is that it has simply been "fixed" in 8. I hope so too. Unfortunately even if that is the case there is still the problem of it orphaning the copied automation. I'll see what I can find out. Thanks. At the end of the day, the best Sonar possible is what we all want, right? (€179 for S8 upgrade + €379 for Omnisphere + .... Aaarrgggh!!!) best regards, werner
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 19:26:41
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ORIGINAL: dreamkeeper
Thanks. At the end of the day, the best Sonar possible is what we all want, right?
Absolutely!
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bapu
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 19:30:27
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ORIGINAL: bapu
+1. Can I get a thanks, too? I don't mind being third.
Of course - Thanks!
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2008/09/23 19:32:07
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 21:02:15
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Right we ignore most of Brandon's feature requests :-) Its seems pretty naive to assume that just because some feature was not implemented it implies that Cakewalk is ignoring the users. We have literally hundreds of feature requests that have to be prioritized in any given release cycle. Its quite impossible to tackle all or even most of them. ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
Well I certainly can understand your frustration but i think it is a bit of a leap to suggest you are being ignored. Just because something is not implemented doesn't mean that the feature and the feature requester is being ignored. I think it simply means it was not prioritized high enough in order to make it into release. There's lots of stuff that I would love to see in SONAR - I think that's true of many of us. But decisions must be made.
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John
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 21:04:25
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Right we ignore most of Brandon's feature requests :-) ROTFL. That is classic! You guys are very special. Its one reason we are so pro CW.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 21:06:32
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ORIGINAL: John
Right we ignore most of Brandon's feature requests :-)
I'll say (post) this for the second time this week: "It would be hilarious if it weren't true."
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 21:09:17
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"Its quite impossible to tackle all or even most of them. "
Why is that? What can WE to do to help you? You've got the support of lots us in the form of our annual upgrades?
best regards,
mike
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SH
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RE: Cakewalk - Screenshot of new Sonar 8 Instrument Track????
2008/09/23 21:22:06
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ORIGINAL: Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
ORIGINAL: tags
Thank you for helping, but it still doesn't seem to do anything useful.
I've selected all nodes with the envelope tool
Chosen edit/copy from the drop-down menu
Made sure track/bus automation was checked and pressed ok
Moved the cursor to a new position, chosen edit/paste
Again, made sure track/bus automation was checked and pressed ok
And... nothing happens.
Hmmm....I don't know what could be wrong. I just tried it and it works for me here. Maybe someone else can imagine what it is that may be different in your carrying out of this operation?
Otherwise a call to tech support might be able to sort you out.
I've had the same problem. I seem to remember something about how the syth was inserted that made a difference. DXi worked and VST didn't or vice versa or some other variable.
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