Also, I believe the term for the Snap to Grid properties dialog is modeless, not modal. A modal dialog is one which takes over input from the app until dismissed. (Sorry, I get a bit anal about terms.)

Quite right. No worry here.

Eratu - my main interest is in scoring to picture, and I made a thread with dev requests on this here - http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=1856443&mpage=1#1861160 . I understand point 4 there has already been addressed in 8.5.2, but the rest are all still highly valid imho - any chance of including any these in your number 6?

May not be enough support for this one, but I would KILL for the ability to optionally disable multi-track record (ie only one track recording at a time), also for the R in track folders to be pale red when a nested track is armed.

If any of this gets reflected, I'm in!

Sign me up.

Gary Yoder

Thanks for the contribution and hard work that went into producing the list.

Please add my name also:

Rick Tucker

noiseboy


Eratu - my main interest is in scoring to picture, and I made a thread with dev requests on this here - http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=1856443&mpage=1#1861160 . I understand point 4 there has already been addressed in 8.5.2, but the rest are all still highly valid imho - any chance of including any these in your number 6?

May not be enough support for this one, but I would KILL for the ability to optionally disable multi-track record (ie only one track recording at a time), also for the R in track folders to be pale red when a nested track is armed.

If any of this gets reflected, I'm in!

noiseboy, thank you for your support and comments, and more importantly, for sharing your feature requests. Sonar needs some serious improvements for scoring to picture. I could use your suggestions tomorrow, they're superb. :) As you saw in the list, we tried to include a few of the most mentioned, basic scoring-workflow issues that have been requested time and again. Jose and UnderTow mentioned a page or two ago about adding more items into the list as it is right now. The list would rapidly spiral into an epic-sized, overwhelming list.

I think Jose said it well with:

Believe me when I say that we would love to have every single feature addressed by the next version of Sonar.  But you and I know that this would be unrealistic (even with the current list), which is why we tried to keep features to a minimum.  We believe the list covers most of the user base and includes features that have been discussed here many times in the past.  Will it please everybody?  Of course not.  That would be impossible to achieve.  But I think we got close enough based on how people have reacted to it so far. 
 
However, as I said earlier, we will include a link to this forum in the letter that will be sent to Cakewalk.  This way they'll be able to see what has been suggested so far.  We just didn't want to go too overboard with it, and remain focused on workflow (which is still a broad theme).  Hope you understand :-)

Sign me up too.
Really want Staff/notation improvements.

Ed W.   (   InstrEd )

Thanks Eratu - thanks for all the time you're putting into this!  The thing at the moment is that few of the current scoring list affects me much.  What do you mean by video following audio edits?  I use Sonar for scoring and Pyramix for dubbing, and I genuinely don't know what that means!  Unless it refers to the following suggestion for video chasing as you drag clips (or notes?) around, in which case... yes, that sounds like a good idea.  Obviously that's a big conceptual leap for Sonar.  At the moment the video only follows the cursor - I guess what you're asking for here is for the video to jump to whatever you select?  I think that's how Pyramix does it... I'm hardly aware of it, which means they've done it right!  And you're right it does make life much easier.

(maybe I'm just thick on the wording of video follows audio edits... it sounds like you're asking to actually edit the video to match the audio!)

As to my list, I quite understand that adding everything opens up a bottomless pit!  I'd put in a request for the easiest / most important of these to get fixed though - specifically the ability to change the first beat of a bar without affecting tempo (I spend half my day putting in stupid time sigs and tempos just to get the play head to wind up in the right place!) Playback frame advance / reverse feels as basic as it comes and should definitely be included, also the metronome bug should be fixed.

Thanks!

noiseboy


Thanks Eratu - thanks for all the time you're putting into this!  The thing at the moment is that few of the current scoring list affects me much.  What do you mean by video following audio edits?  I use Sonar for scoring and Pyramix for dubbing, and I genuinely don't know what that means!  Unless it refers to the following suggestion for video chasing as you drag clips (or notes?) around, in which case... yes, that sounds like a good idea.  Obviously that's a big conceptual leap for Sonar.  At the moment the video only follows the cursor - I guess what you're asking for here is for the video to jump to whatever you select?  I think that's how Pyramix does it... I'm hardly aware of it, which means they've done it right!  And you're right it does make life much easier.

That was my feature request so I better answer. :) It is as you describe: Video follows the now time at all times including when you drag a clip or a note or trim stuff or comp or whatever. Every other DAW does this. I also explain it in your scoring thread here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1856443

As to my list, I quite understand that adding everything opens up a bottomless pit!  I'd put in a request for the easiest / most important of these to get fixed though - specifically the ability to change the first beat of a bar without affecting tempo (I spend half my day putting in stupid time sigs and tempos just to get the play head to wind up in the right place!) Playback frame advance / reverse feels as basic as it comes and should definitely be included,

I agree. See my suggestion for enhancing the nudge feature. Also in your scoring thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1856443 :)

UnderTow

I've already signed on but as I've been reading peoples requests and thinking about my own, I've sort of thought a little deeper about this added value of included plugins.

I guess all of Cakwalks competitors release a topline DAW that has value added components that plugin to the main software and I suppose too that in the long term you'd have to imagine that Cakewalk not only need to sell more units of SONAR Producer and it various lesser derivatives like Home studio etc but they probably have to have a broader prodcut base as well to remain competitive in a market that already is in a relatively small niche.

Of course we can only speculate on why they do what they do in the Cake offices but these thougths just came to me that we don't want to sabotage their perhaps well thought out long term survival marketing strategy.  Just a few thoughts.

I've already mentioned in another post that they're pretty much all  musos too at the Bakery so you'd have to imagine that they would come up against all the hassels that we do but perhaps being on the inside they're more ready to compromise between their own ideal DAW and one that is marketable in the long term, shaping the market rather than just relying on the supplying of an existing market.

These are obviously just my thoughts and in no way do I want to derail this thread but obviousy we want to show the Bakers that we're not selfish and we can see a compromise if its explained to us as well. Music is all about compromise. I mean every time there's a tune in my head its always a compromise limited by my own ability or lack there of in getting it out into a sound that resembles my imagination. So I compromise between what I would want in an ideal and what I can actually deliver.

Anyways think on it. This is such a positive thread and I'm really enjoying the positive spirit that's reflected in most of the posts. It would be nice for a Baker to drop in and say "Hey you guys we're really keen to look at your ideas". Lets face it though that for a company that claims to have more than a million users of its software or a million units sold, that 45 names in a list aint going to have that much weight in the grand scheme. Still we know they watch and listen, so lets just hope that its enough. I don't want to appear negative here but honestly I thought we would have garnered more support at this stage when you compare how rapidly some threads develop into multi page tomes. We really need a ground swell of support not just from the old timers but new users too. So especially to James (eratu) and Jose12345 what else can we others do that will help build this interest in this movement that's been started.

I'm in the middle of a house remodel  :-)

I don't have a bunch of suggestions at the ready.  Can I please be included as a listed supporter of the original post.

 thanks,
mike

mudgel


I've already signed on but as I've been reading peoples requests and thinking about my own, I've sort of thought a little deeper about this added value of included plugins.

Thanks again for signing on, Mike! And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I guess all of Cakwalks competitors release a topline DAW that has value added components that plugin to the main software and I suppose too that in the long term you'd have to imagine that Cakewalk not only need to sell more units of SONAR Producer and it various lesser derivatives like Home studio etc but they probably have to have a broader prodcut base as well to remain competitive in a market that already is in a relatively small niche.

Of course we can only speculate on why they do what they do in the Cake offices but these thougths just came to me that we don't want to sabotage their perhaps well thought out long term survival marketing strategy.  Just a few thoughts.

I totally agree that we don't want to sabotage (or *presume* to sabotage) their long-term marketing strategy -- it's obviously gotten them this far and we are all Sonar users for a reason. When we were refining the letter, we wanted to make sure that were walking and respecting that line by saying such things as: "Please know that we don't intend to supplant Cakewalk's own decision-making process, but rather *supplement* it with the best, concise, and widely-supported list of feature requests that brings together the best ideas from the Sonar community," and "Certainly, there is a balance that Cakewalk is attempting to accomplish between innovation in the marketplace, attracting new users, and maintaining their existing userbase, and we realize that Cakewalk has a mature internal process to determine the development schedule of new features."

However, at the same time we want to "take this opportunity to raise special awareness of our most important workflow requests to the highest level." Assuming that their long-term strategy includes listening to their existing user-base we wanted take this batch of oft-repeated requests and bring a special light onto them.

I've already mentioned in another post that they're pretty much all  musos too at the Bakery so you'd have to imagine that they would come up against all the hassels that we do but perhaps being on the inside they're more ready to compromise between their own ideal DAW and one that is marketable in the long term, shaping the market rather than just relying on the supplying of an existing market.

I agree with this, but also, I think that sometimes developers are working deep in the weeds too, or are entrenched in a particular workflow concept, and sometimes could benefit a perspective-refresher from a group of serious outside users as well. Otherwise they wouldn't need a feature request system at all. Nor would companies need beta-testers. Nor focus groups. Nor would they perhaps need a forum, or wouldn't bother interacting here, etc., etc.

While Cakewalk has spent a lot of time on many great features, and certainly has a mature feature development process, we're a crucial gear in their engine. We -- the collective we, the broad Sonar community -- are their lifeblood and there's a reason why many of us are feeling the way we do about some of these features. We need them. We care enough that we're spending this time. The fact we've done this probably says far, far more than what just a few signatures can say.

These are obviously just my thoughts and in no way do I want to derail this thread but obviousy we want to show the Bakers that we're not selfish and we can see a compromise if its explained to us as well. Music is all about compromise. I mean every time there's a tune in my head its always a compromise limited by my own ability or lack there of in getting it out into a sound that resembles my imagination. So I compromise between what I would want in an ideal and what I can actually deliver.

You are absolutely not derailing this -- I personally appreciate the discussion. These are profound points. We're not just some moaning and groaning little ninnies who are ranting and raving... on the contrary, we're sincerely, genuinely reaching out and extending our collective support to Cakewalk and in a way, saying... "We want to help you make a great product that much greater, and here are some well thought-out, serious, broadly supported ideas. We're serious Sonar users who care about Cakewalk, let's take Sonar to the next level, we can all benefit."

Anyways think on it. This is such a positive thread and I'm really enjoying the positive spirit that's reflected in most of the posts. It would be nice for a Baker to drop in and say "Hey you guys we're really keen to look at your ideas". Lets face it though that for a company that claims to have more than a million users of its software or a million units sold, that 45 names in a list aint going to have that much weight in the grand scheme. Still we know they watch and listen, so lets just hope that its enough. I don't want to appear negative here but honestly I thought we would have garnered more support at this stage when you compare how rapidly some threads develop into multi page tomes. We really need a ground swell of support not just from the old timers but new users too. So especially to James (eratu) and Jose12345 what else can we others do that will help build this interest in this movement that's been started.

I do think we'll have an impact. It's true that we're only tiny fraction of the total Sonar userbase. Er-hem, we're now at 55 signatures  and I think we represent a far larger contingent of users. Obviously, we don't represent the entire community. But of the 52433 registered users in this forum (according to the "Member list"), only a fraction will visit the forum during this window of signing, and of those, only a fraction will visit this thread. Who knows what the ratios are. Personally, I'm blown away by the 55 quality signatures so far, and the heartfelt support. Many of these signers are experienced power-users that Cakewalk already personally knows, from all corners of the Cakewalk community, and that means a lot as well. Who knows how many people each one of those signatures really represent? 10? 100? More? How many would we get if every single Sonar user were to get this letter?

Even if there are only 55 people on the entire planet that are willing to literally sign on to this letter, I'm thrilled and honored to send this list in to Cakewalk, and I appreciate every comment and name on the thread, including yours. It's a sincere effort -- albeit imperfect -- and the best we can do this round. How Cakewalk takes it, I can only speculate. I think if we can continue to maintain what you describe as the positive nature of this thread, how can Cakewalk not take this seriously? I feel like we're already successful, no matter how many more signatures we get. Having said that, I certainly wouldn't mind a whole bunch more! :)

As for the length of the thread, I think it may have something to do with the way we presented it and its origins. As you know, we worked out a lot of the details off-site -- but keep in mind that we culled from dozens and dozens of threads and possibly thousands of posts, and synthesized the best of the best feature requests here... the prior thread I had spent time in -- the one that really got me thinking about this more than ever was the "Workflow, Workflow, Workflow" thread -- http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1873590 -- and that was a great thread with some fantastic ideas from a lot of users. This new thread, in a way, is the next logical step from that prior one and the many other threads that passionately discuss these issues. This is, in a way, a culmination of many, many other threads... so I consider the total post-count an aggregate of all of them. The difference with this thread is that we are asking for support for a synthesized list, rather than an open-ended free-for-all, so I'm not surprised that this thread doesn't have 200 pages of replies already.

Anyway, thank you for contributing such valuable thoughts and again for your support! Let's hope that we move forward and can make the type of difference that will help Sonar become that much better of a product, which I believe will also strengthen Cakewalk for the long-term. A win-win scenario! :)

Best,
James

EDIT: for spelling and clarification

Great effort guys (and gals). I think some of the previous discussions about what type of improvements sell more copies of Sonar are relevant here. Really professional productivity features attract a much wider audience than bells and whistles (i.e. plugins). If you assumed that Fender's only market share was people that made their entire living off of playing guitar they should logically be a much smaller company with limited sales. But for every pro player that publicly uses a Fender, 1000 enthusiasts buy one because of the pro reputation. Like it or not, that's also why protools became a standard.

My biggest requests are around improving Audio Snap, Time stretching, recordable macros, and wishing there was an Undo-per-track for mixing. Of my list, I think the Undo-per-track  is the only feature relevant to workflow.

First of all ... add my name to the list ... Ken Matson (MatsonMusicBox). While everything listed does not have value for me - much of it does and I support this general development direction.

Secondly - there are a few things I want to specifically give a +1000 to:

1. Enough already with new plug-ins, instruments, and "Live" and "Fruity Loops" type direction ... core audio and MIDI recording improvements - workflow - is what I (and apparently many others) want! I got hit on the head with this today as one of my recording mentors( from another forum) and the primary person responsible for converting me to and pulling me into the SONAR fold, announced that he would be moving to Pro-tools because (to paraphrase) "SONAR is moving to the dance and hip-hop way of doing things instead of the tape-recorder way" that he prefers to work. Honestly - if they keep it up, I may not be far behind him.
2. Routing!!!! Take a look at Reaper - you'll see everything you need. Route anything to anything.
3. Project/file/track organization and management - the clean audio folders drives me nuts checking the whole computer. How about a super-clear tabular view of project files (all in your folder) showing the name, size, used or not, track(s) used on, etc. where files can be previewed, renamed, added, deleted, etc.
4. Everything said about envelopes.

Lastly - and this is something I don't know that I've ever seen here, so maybe I'm the only one that would have this request. Professionally, I am a software executive manager, having come up through development ranks. We build very high-end financial reporting software for financial institutions. I just got back from a client conference where we discussed ... ta da .... workflow.

But - the kind of workflow that was discussed was largely not the same thing being discussed here. What it really was about was "project management". I ran into this need in recently remixing my CD project. Here's the idea. What if you could set up a "project management task list" and then use it as a checklist to do things in SONAR. For example, a (simplified for this example) task list might look like this:

1. Record Rhythm Tracks
2. Record Solo Tracks
3. Record Lead Vocals
4. Record Backing Vox
5. Organize/Label tracks
6. Trim/Slip-edit Audio Clips
7. Correct vocals pitch/timing
8. Add effects
9. etc.

The list could be customizable, you could have multiple lists/templates for different kinds of projects, it would be dynamically editable, would allow you to check-off (and keep tabs at even a track level perhaps), and here's the kicker, as you go to each task, it would take you to the interface/window/view that is optimally set-up to do that task. It sort of makes it into an assembly-line process which is GREAT for efficiency. Of course, this would be in addition to the free-form traditional way of doing things we have now for those that prefer it, and you could switch back and forth.

Just a thought.

Anyway - add me to the list as a I said. Appreciate the work!

Cattapan >> Most Marketing departments would pay anything to get this type of concise, intelligent feedback from their customer base.

I couldn't agree more, having worked in a major computer company and had to deal with inhouse Marketing !  They would have licked their lips in getting their hands on something like this.  Unfortunately, at the time I was there, the WWW was just coming into being, and so their methods were different.  Having customers tell you what they are interested in is so easy nowadays.

Just an aside: Why are you a new member ? ... I remember you from not so long ago.

MatsonMusicBox
SONAR is moving to the dance and hip-hop way of doing things instead of the tape-recorder way that he prefers to work. Honestly - if they keep it up, I may not be far behind him.

If they DON'T keep it up I won't be far behind him. Matrix View is the reason I'm still on Sonar.