Hi all!

A big THANK YOU to everyone who have participated in this thread so far.  We really appreciate your support as well as your great ideas, comments and suggestions.  It really means a lot to us, and I hope that Cakewalk also appreciates the value of this thread as much as we do.  But to me is not so much about the quantity, but the quality of the people who have sign on their names to this list that makes it so especial.  There are some real heavy-duty people who have participated and shown their support to this thread.  Thus, I think I speak for everyone who has collaborated in such a great effort when I say that we are truly humbled and honored to be part of this. 

I also want to publicly thank James (Eratu) for giving me the opportunity to get involved and be able to contribute in the development of such a great list of features.  He is no doubt one of the greatest assets in this forum and someone who I greatly respect for his professionalism and talent.  He is a great friend who I've been privileged to get to know and work with on several occasions.  I can't speak highly enough of him.  He is no doubt an awesome human being.  Thanks James!

Finally, I want to thank UnderTow, Marah, SONARtist and nPrime for helping us shape and stir things in the right direction.  We probably wouldn't be this successful without them, and I honestly mean that.  But a special distinction goes to UnderTow and Marah.  Thank you for the awesome ideas and interest in this initiative.  This wouldn't have been the same without you guys.  Hope we get to collaborate again some time in the future.

Take care everyone!  Keep 'em coming :-)



 
EDIT: For clarity.
 
 
 

mudgel


Of course we can only speculate on why they do what they do in the Cake offices but these thougths just came to me that we don't want to sabotage their perhaps well thought out long term survival marketing strategy.  Just a few thoughts.

I don't believe we can sabotage Cakewalk. We do not have any direct control over their decision making. We can only offer our ideas and suggestions and hope to influence them in a way that will best benefit our wishes and needs as Cakewalk customers.

I've already mentioned in another post that they're pretty much all  musos too at the Bakery so you'd have to imagine that they would come up against all the hassels that we do but perhaps being on the inside they're more ready to compromise between their own ideal DAW and one that is marketable in the long term, shaping the market rather than just relying on the supplying of an existing market.

I very much doubt that. That would mean that Cakewalk know something that we don't and, more importantly, no other major DAW
developer out there knows either. Their guess is as good as ours. They don't have a crystal ball any more than anyone else does.

Lets face it though that for a company that claims to have more than a million users of its software or a million units sold, that 45 names in a list aint going to have that much weight in the grand scheme.

That depends on how good Cakewalk marketing is. It is easy to say "We added 3 new features and got 12.000 new users. Next version we add 6 new features and we get 24.000 new users". Besides being easy, it is also meaningless.

Many marketeers hide behind such numbers because it gives them a feeling of control and having covered their backsides. (I am not saying that Cakewalk Marketing does this. It is something I have seen many do over the years in business. That's all). In reality, these things are impossible to calculate. I don't care what is taught at marketing school. Those teachers are just as clued in as the millions of bankers that gave us the current credit crisis. If most marketeers knew what they were doing, most products would be massive successes. They are not.

The very best marketeers  just have the right instinct. The right gut feeling. That is something that can not be measured. It can only be checked long after the fact. Maybe a decade down the road. Maybe even two decades. The same goes for managements, CEOs and probably most things in life (except maybe accountants). So if your marketing director tries to convince you with an excel sheet, fire him! Ok Ok, I'm joking... Mostly. ;) Btw, if the accountant tries to convince you without an excel sheet, fire him! ;)

If excellence and market success in DAW land can not so easily be measured, what does makes sense? I have a few ideas and, as I am not a marketeer, I have a much better chance of being right. ;) My chances happen to be exactly one in a million. In other words, as everyone knows, a sure thing! ;).

New inexperienced users are expensive to get and expensive once you have them because they need extra care and support. Existing users are cheaper to get. You already have them! It should be much easier to convince existing customers to upgrade than trying to convince new users to go Sonar or switch from other DAWs in this already saturated market. They are also cheaper to support as they probably already have a functional DAW computer with most if not all of the kinks ironed out. (New version bugs affect newcomers and existing users just as much so it isn't part of the equation).

If Cakewalk really have 1 million Sonar users, pleasing us with real functionality and workflow improvements (rather than superficial fluff) really is a smarter business plan. 1 million upgrades beats 50.000 new users. Not only that, Cakewalk will have to implement these features at some point anyway. They can not get arround it. As these features we propose become more than standard (many of the requests we have made are already standard in other DAWs), Cakewalk have less and less choice but to implement them. Keep up or drop out.

No one would have missed the Matrix View, however good it might be, if it wasn't added last version for the simple reason that no one would have known it was even a possibility. On the other hand, anyone familiar with another DAW would find a list of things missing in Sonar. That as such is OK! It happens whenever one changes from any DAW to any other DAW. No DAW has every feature. This is unavoidable yet it is important to make sure that that list doesn't grow too large.

There is something more fundamental to think about: Reputation. If you want your flagship DAW to be considered industry leading by people outside of your marketing department and fan base, you need to convince high-profile and respected people in the industry that it is indeed the case. You will not achieve that by slapping the sentence on your website and adverts.

The way to be perceived as industry leading (to potential customers and in areas that really matter when making music) is to cater to the needs of high-end professionals and experienced users. Right now I do not believe Cakewalk have been doing that. They might think they have but they really have not. At least not enough. One way I can imagine them thinking that they have become industry leaders is with being early in the x64 race and the 64 bit audio engine.

Any real pro that understands digital audio will tell you that the 64 bit audio engine difference is insignificant. Some of the absolute top audio and mastering engineers in the world use Pro Tools. PT has a 24 bit track bit depth. (TDM plugins all communicate at 24 bit). It has never stopped people making albums and singles selling millions of copies. The vast majority of DAW users do not use gigantic sample libraries (that don't do disc streaming) so they do not need the massive amounts of memory a 64 bit OS allows.

So whom exactly did Cakewalk convince that they are industry leaders? Microsoft or Chris Lord Alge and Ted Jenssen? Who matters more from a marketing perspective? What sells more copies of Sonar? Chris Lord Alge in his studio on the cover of Mix magazine with a copy of Sonar running on the screen behind him or Noel Borthwick at Microsoft's developers awards?

If Cakewalk do start catering for the more advanced users, slowly but surely word of mouth will spread and the marketing will be done for them. I am convinced that Cakewalk need to focus on the type of features and enhancements this thread is all about. In other words, the numbers of signatories is less relevant than the content of the letter and list of feature request. The request for Cakewalk to focus on workflow above all else should speak for itself.

Still we know they watch and listen, so lets just hope that its enough. I don't want to appear negative here but honestly I thought we would have garnered more support at this stage when you compare how rapidly some threads develop into multi page tomes.

To be honest I am not so surprised. The letter and feature list are a long read as far as forum posts go. As James pointed out, a lot was discussed off the forum before posting, not to mention the countless discussions we have all had on the forum over the years. There is a considerable amount of information and ideas from many people condensed into those the letter and feature request list. This is not the type of thread that will engender a quick laugh and giggle response like some threads do. That is OK as long as Cakewalk hear us and listen to our ideas and requests.

We really need a ground swell of support not just from the old timers but new users too. So especially to James (eratu) and Jose12345 what else can we others do that will help build this interest in this movement that's been started.

I don't believe we need a ground swell for all the reasons mentioned above. If Cakewalk are listening, that is all that counts.

UnderTow

Jose7822


Hi all!

A big THANK YOU to everyone who have participated in this thread so far.  We really appreciate your support as well as your great ideas, comments and suggestions.  It really means a lot to us, and I hope that Cakewalk also appreciates the value of this thread as much as we do.  But to me is not so much about the quantity, but the quality of the people who have sign on their names to this list that makes it so especial.  There are some real heavy-duty people who have participated and shown their support to this thread.  Thus, I think I speak for everyone who has collaborated in such a great effort when I say that we are truly humbled and honored to be part of this. 

I also want to publicly thank James (Eratu) for giving me the opportunity to get involved and be able to contribute in the development of such a great list of features.  He is no doubt one of the greatest assets in this forum and someone who I greatly respect for his professionalism and talent.  He is a great friend who I've been privileged to get to know and work with on several occasions.  I can't speak highly enough of him.  He is no doubt an awesome human being.  Thanks James!

Finally, I want to thank UnderTow, Marah, SONARtist and nPrime for helping us shape and stir things in the right direction.  We probably wouldn't be this successful without them, and I honestly mean that.  But a special distinction goes to UnderTow and Marah.  Thank you for the awesome ideas and interest in this initiative.  This wouldn't have been the same without you guys.  Hope we get to collaborate again some time in the future.

Take care everyone!  Keep 'em coming :-)



 
EDIT: For clarity.
 
 
 

Jose,

Excuse me! I lot more people have contributed excellent ideas and many discussions date back much further than that workflow, workflow, workflow thread!  I am sick to death of the arrogance around these forums, it's as if to hell with many others who contributed in the past! This really pisses me off big time. Please remove my name.

You can add me to the list, to make up for SongCraft's departure.

SongCraft

Jose7822


Hi all!

A big THANK YOU to everyone who have participated in this thread so far.  We really appreciate your support as well as your great ideas, comments and suggestions.  It really means a lot to us, and I hope that Cakewalk also appreciates the value of this thread as much as we do.  But to me is not so much about the quantity, but the quality of the people who have sign on their names to this list that makes it so especial.  There are some real heavy-duty people who have participated and shown their support to this thread.  Thus, I think I speak for everyone who has collaborated in such a great effort when I say that we are truly humbled and honored to be part of this. 

I also want to publicly thank James (Eratu) for giving me the opportunity to get involved and be able to contribute in the development of such a great list of features.  He is no doubt one of the greatest assets in this forum and someone who I greatly respect for his professionalism and talent.  He is a great friend who I've been privileged to get to know and work with on several occasions.  I can't speak highly enough of him.  He is no doubt an awesome human being.  Thanks James!

Finally, I want to thank UnderTow, Marah, SONARtist and nPrime for helping us shape and stir things in the right direction.  We probably wouldn't be this successful without them, and I honestly mean that.  But a special distinction goes to UnderTow and Marah.  Thank you for the awesome ideas and interest in this initiative.  This wouldn't have been the same without you guys.  Hope we get to collaborate again some time in the future.

Take care everyone!  Keep 'em coming :-)



 
EDIT: For clarity.

Jose,

Excuse me! I lot more people have contributed excellent ideas and many discussions date back much further than that workflow, workflow, workflow thread!  I am sick to death of the arrogance around these forums, it's as if to hell with many others who contributed in the past! This really pisses me off big time. Please remove my name.

What a strange reaction. How in the world could he list every single person on every single thread who contributed an idea? It's all for the common good, not an exercise in ego stroking. I thought that was made clear at the outset of this thread.

Please take a deep breath and reconsider your position.

We are here to work together not to fight amongst ourselves.

OK, I'm in.

Doghouse Riley

Let me explain:
I compiled a list of almost 100 workflow enhancements from a lot of people who contributed! It was a very time consuming effort compiling that list, I thanked each person for their contribution, guess what? neither Jose and James contributed to that thread. 

I was slightly disappointed, I did expect to see more join the discussion. But FWIW at least some of those ideas compiled in a list of 100 made it into SONAR.8.5, yes it's understandable that CW can't include them all but unfortunately envelopes for example did not make the list, it's a pity Jose, James and others did not contribute back then because the extra support might have helped.  I'm disappointed! I think those workflows enhancements are long overdue, meanwhile the competition has long since done that.

There's been threads (workflow, FR) long before that 100 list, and more of the same threads discussions after that, what they all have in common is workflow enhancements. A lot of dicussions about GUI, Trk-View, Envelopes and just about all aspects that would greatly enhance workflow.

Anyway! FWIW it's up to Cakewalk to include what they see fit and do it their own way, for the next release and so on after that.

I would like to see a ruler ontop of the staff view, where you can set the resolution of an "audio snap" and manually insert notes....

Good list of work flow improvements!

Add my name please!

SongCraft

Jose7822


Hi all!

A big THANK YOU to everyone who have participated in this thread so far.  We really appreciate your support as well as your great ideas, comments and suggestions.  It really means a lot to us, and I hope that Cakewalk also appreciates the value of this thread as much as we do.  But to me is not so much about the quantity, but the quality of the people who have sign on their names to this list that makes it so especial.  There are some real heavy-duty people who have participated and shown their support to this thread.  Thus, I think I speak for everyone who has collaborated in such a great effort when I say that we are truly humbled and honored to be part of this. 

I also want to publicly thank James (Eratu) for giving me the opportunity to get involved and be able to contribute in the development of such a great list of features.  He is no doubt one of the greatest assets in this forum and someone who I greatly respect for his professionalism and talent.  He is a great friend who I've been privileged to get to know and work with on several occasions.  I can't speak highly enough of him.  He is no doubt an awesome human being.  Thanks James!

Finally, I want to thank UnderTow, Marah, SONARtist and nPrime for helping us shape and stir things in the right direction.  We probably wouldn't be this successful without them, and I honestly mean that.  But a special distinction goes to UnderTow and Marah.  Thank you for the awesome ideas and interest in this initiative.  This wouldn't have been the same without you guys.  Hope we get to collaborate again some time in the future.

Take care everyone!  Keep 'em coming :-)



 
EDIT: For clarity.

Jose,

Excuse me! I lot more people have contributed excellent ideas and many discussions date back much further than that workflow, workflow, workflow thread!  I am sick to death of the arrogance around these forums, it's as if to hell with many others who contributed in the past! This really pisses me off big time. Please remove my name.

 
SongCraft,
 
Please accept my apologies if I offended you as that was not my intension.  Maybe I should've phrased it differently?  But as UnderTow pointed out, I was mainly referring to the people who worked behind the scenes to summarize the features list that you see in this particular thread.  I absolutely do not claim we were the master mind behind ALL of the great suggestions that have been given by numerous forum members over the years (including yourself).  We've emphasized that point in the OP when we said that these were the top 10 most wanted features people have been asking for over the years.  I personally went as far as 2004 to compile them, and also made sure it included features that affect most of the users based on the workflow theme.  So, on the contrary, we definitely appreciate all the suggestions and great ideas given by many of you guys over the years.  Without them, the lists wouldn't be the same.  That is a fact!
 
Well, I hope this clears things up a bit.  I'm really sorry you felt I was being arrogant when all I did was to thank the people who have helped get this thread going, as well as everyone who is part of it and has supported it so far.  I won't even ask you to put your signature back on the list.  But I do hope you reconsider your POV about me, as I am not the person you think I am.  Hope you have a great day. :-)
 
 
Take care SongCraft!
 
 

SongCraft


Let me explain:
I compiled a list of almost 100 workflow enhancements from a lot of people who contributed! It was a very time consuming effort compiling that list, I thanked each person for their contribution, guess what? neither Jose and James contributed to that thread. 

I was slightly disappointed, I did expect to see more join the discussion. But FWIW at least some of those ideas compiled in a list of 100 made it into SONAR.8.5, yes it's understandable that CW can't include them all but unfortunately envelopes for example did not make the list, it's a pity Jose, James and others did not contribute back then because the extra support might have helped.  I'm disappointed! I think those workflows enhancements are long overdue, meanwhile the competition has long since done that.

There's been threads (workflow, FR) long before that 100 list, and more of the same threads discussions after that, what they all have in common is workflow enhancements. A lot of discussions about GUI, Trk-View, Envelopes and just about all aspects that would greatly enhance workflow.

Anyway! FWIW it's up to Cakewalk to include what they see fit and do it their own way, for the next release and so on after that.

SongCraft,
 
I must have missed that thread.  There was a time where I was not visiting this forum as much, until recently when Sonar 8.5 came out. 
 
But believe me that if I had seen your compiled list before, I would've given you my full support.  And I can say the same about James, he would've supported it too. 
 
 

SongCraft I was on your list too. I remember it well. As a matter of fact I was thinking about you when this thread came up. I should have mentioned your work and I thought I did. That is my error. I can understand how you feel about this and not being mentioned but James and Jose have done this on their own. I don't think they knew about your work or how useful it was.
Again much of that is my fault not theirs for not posting about the thread you did so well. The one thing I know for sure is they are really great members that over time have been very good to me and so many others. As you know you have also been great to me and many others. With that in common, it seems to me that you and they are meant to work together in order to accomplish these wonderful ideas.  It is a natural coalition that we will all benefit from.

I know that your posting above was made in the heat of the moment and when you see the logic of you me and Jose and James all working together you will join us in this work.

It is not in any way a minimizing of what you did. It in fact a furtherance of it.   But I should remind you and all here that Pianist also did this sort of thing a long time ago with just as much effort and just as much results. Many of us that have been around a while have done our part in getting Sonar to be better too.

No one person is responsible for all the improvements that have been included in Sonar over the years. It has always been a group effort. We have counted on the membership to help by supporting an idea and without that support it is highly likely none of it would have been adopted.

That is why this thread and others like it are so important. You having a solid history in highlighting these issues need to be a strong voice in support if for no other reason then to lend your mantel of being on the forefront of this movement.

I believe that improvements happen if we keep their idea visible. When a list of this sort comes around I view it as a continuum of work done in the past and still unfulfilled. Its as if a new group has taken up the challenge that you and others took up yourselves before.

We should never look at it as something belonging to ourselves but work that is always needed to be done and by us all.

I know Song you will join us because you are that sort of guy.     

 

John

SongCraft I was on your list too. I remember it well. As a matter of fact I was thinking about you when this thread came up. I should have mentioned your work and I thought I did. That is my error. I can understand how you feel about this and not being mentioned but James and Jose have done this on their own. I don't think they knew about your work or how useful it was.
Again much of that is my fault not theirs for not posting about the thread you did so well. The one thing I know for sure is they are really great members that over time have been very good to me and so many others. As you know you have also been great to me and many others. With that in common, it seems to me that you and they are meant to work together in order to accomplish these wonderful ideas.  It is a natural coalition that we will all benefit from.

I know that your posting above was made in the heat of the moment and when you see the logic of you me and Jose and James all working together you will join us in this work.

It is not in any way a minimizing of what you did. It in fact a furtherance of it.   But I should remind you and all here that Pianist also did this sort of thing a long time ago with just as much effort and just as much results. Many of us that have been around a while have done our part in getting Sonar to be better too.

No one person is responsible for all the improvements that have been included in Sonar over the years. It has always been a group effort. We have counted on the membership to help by supporting an idea and without that support it is highly likely none of it would have been adopted.

That is why this thread and others like it are so important. You having a solid history in highlighting these issues need to be a strong voice in support if for no other reason then to lend your mantel of being on the forefront of this movement.

I believe that improvements happen if we keep their idea visible. When a list of this sort comes around I view it as a continuum of work done in the past and still unfulfilled. Its as if a new group has taken up the challenge that you and others took up yourselves before.

We should never look at it as something belonging to ourselves but work that is always needed to be done and by us all.

I know Song you will join us because you are that sort of guy.

Beautifully said, John. I'm happy to say that SongCraft is supporting the thread and his name is back on the list.

I want to second everything that John and others have just said as well. This really is a group effort that has spanned many years and countless hours of effort from a large group of great Sonar users. I think Cakewalk is damn lucky to have such a dedicated group of professionals and enthusiasts, not to mention such decent folk, as customers -- and I want to thank everyone who has contributed here in this effort and for long, long before.

THANK YOU!

Best Regards, James

eratu


Just added:

windsurfer25x

Thank you for your support! I believe that makes 60 names, fantastic!

Make it 61.  I initially thought you'd only be interested in the established "names" on this forum.  But I see a lot of folks with lowish post counts are in, so by all means, make me one of them.  And many thanks for taking the initiative on this.
 
David Baer

I think we need to see more "Working Groups" taking a good hard look at the future of Sonar.

By no means should this be the last.

I'd encourage anyone who has specific problems to contact others here on the Forum who have similar complaints and get together and hash out the best suggestions for solutions. Whether or not you chose to involve the entire forum and ask for their opinions is up to you, of course.

The thing is, when you have come to some conclusions, take the time to make the official feature request with your finished document, then also take the time to print it out and snail mail it to the relevant people.

Nothing will happen quickly, (we are all resigned to the reality of a development cycle), but doing things in a proper, business like fashion will get results in the long run, I'm sure of it!

We are all here because we believe in Sonar and Cakewalk. Let's keep that in mind and use the community spirit here to make this a program we can truly enjoy using. I want to be proud to say, "Yeah, it was done using Sonar!", and I'm sure every one of you does too.

eratu


Wow, guys! I leave the computer for a couple of hours, and look at all this fantastic support! Thank you! I will add all the names to the letter shortly!

+1
Great work! Please Add me as well: David Miller