Orphaned at Birth 
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/02 18:33:32
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/06/02 19:43:23
charlyg
On another tangent all together, I found the Block User function in the forum!
ROFLMAO :) I have only been here for 2 days, and I found myself looking for that as well, I wonder if it is the same ? I thought medical practitioners were supposed to make you feel better ?
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jb101
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/02 18:54:26
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Orphaned at Birth
charlyg
On another tangent all together, I found the Block User function in the forum!
ROFLMAO :)
I have only been here for 2 days, and I found myself looking for that as well, I wonder if it is the same ? I thought medical practitioners were supposed to make you feel better ?
 Welcome to the forum. Please don't be put off. In the words of Noel Coward - " Is their an apple in the house?" On the whole, this forum is fantastic. Many very knowledgeable people seem to spare their limited free time on here, helping others out and sharing their experience.
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mudgel
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/03 00:39:19
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Bristol_Jonesey
Somewhat on topic, I can happily report that the fix for the drum maps works!
Are you talking about the special release Noël discussed?
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Morvejones
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/03 03:06:35
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BobF
Morvejones
BobF
Morvejones
Im still waiting for loop recording to be fixed
What doesn't work about loop recording?
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-Problem-m3156480.aspx
So in a nutshell, it's the count in ability you want back. I agree, it's a pain.
I have an FR on something similar at http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3185610
This one shows up as a clip that gets split wherever you happen to stop recording.
Totally agree mate, i had that problem also. i use the count in for 99% of my recording kind of stuck without it
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/03 05:16:46
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mudgel
Bristol_Jonesey
Somewhat on topic, I can happily report that the fix for the drum maps works!
Are you talking about the special release Noël discussed?
That's the one Mike.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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BobF
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/03 08:29:36
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Morvejones
BobF
Morvejones
BobF
Morvejones
Im still waiting for loop recording to be fixed
What doesn't work about loop recording?
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-Problem-m3156480.aspx
So in a nutshell, it's the count in ability you want back. I agree, it's a pain.
I have an FR on something similar at http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3185610
This one shows up as a clip that gets split wherever you happen to stop recording.
Totally agree mate, i had that problem also. i use the count in for 99% of my recording kind of stuck without it
I know this isn't ideal, but since I have an EZD track in most projects I just grab an minimal intro clip and throw it up front for count in. I'm even gradually setting up clips for various metronome styles for use with TTS to get what I need without using the metronome at all. It's not 'right' on principle, but it's a whole lot more flexible for sound choice and how the accents are done - which is a big help for rhythmically challenged folks like me :) Let's see if we can run down an official PR on the metronome that we can percolate back to the top.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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Morvejones
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/03 12:09:22
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BobF
Morvejones
BobF
Morvejones
BobF
Morvejones
Im still waiting for loop recording to be fixed
What doesn't work about loop recording?
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-Problem-m3156480.aspx
So in a nutshell, it's the count in ability you want back. I agree, it's a pain.
I have an FR on something similar at http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3185610
This one shows up as a clip that gets split wherever you happen to stop recording.
Totally agree mate, i had that problem also. i use the count in for 99% of my recording kind of stuck without it
I know this isn't ideal, but since I have an EZD track in most projects I just grab an minimal intro clip and throw it up front for count in. I'm even gradually setting up clips for various metronome styles for use with TTS to get what I need without using the metronome at all. It's not 'right' on principle, but it's a whole lot more flexible for sound choice and how the accents are done - which is a big help for rhythmically challenged folks like me :)
Let's see if we can run down an official PR on the metronome that we can percolate back to the top.
Using a intro clip is fine for the start, but most of the time im layering guitars right through, adding solos,fills etc. i guess its all down to how you are used to working. lets hope we can get a fix soon ;)
Fx8350, 32gb ram, Win10, SPlat (latest) , Fl studio, DFHS Echo layla 3G, Jvm410h, HD147 Pod Pro XT/X3, Behringer B2031A's, MCU Pro, Roland TD3 kit, Edirol PCR-30, Trigger Finger, Bcf2000Pod Farm,Guitar rig 5, Amplitube 4,T-racks,Waves,Nomad factory Fab Filter,Psp,Toontrack and P&M plugs
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stac
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 05:09:21
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I use multiple DAWs (Cubase, Sonar, REAPER, Pro Tools, Studio One), and NONE of them is bugfree. Each of them introduces new bugs with every update, and that's simply something you cannot avoid, no matter how good the QA, unless you stop enhancing the software completely. No evolution, no (more) bugs.
I personally would prefer a focus on bugfixing instead of new features for a while, but it's a difficult situation. If the next monthly update was a bugfix-only release that did not have anything new to offer, some people would start complaining that Cakewalk does not do anything for their money. You can't please everybody.
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Kylotan
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 06:53:27
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/06/06 15:45:44
I'm done with this thread for now - the bug is fixed, and I made my point (as did a bunch of others), but I wanted to respond to this: stac
Each of them introduces new bugs with every update, and that's simply something you cannot avoid, no matter how good the QA, unless you stop enhancing the software completely. No evolution, no (more) bugs. This isn't true. It may not always be cost-effective to ship bug-free software, and obviously when it comes to interacting with external software it is impossible to ensure everybody else's software is bug-free, but it is not impossible to add a feature without adding bugs. Even if we assume that it's impossible to write perfect code (it's not, but it's hard), there can be internal unit testing for code that can catch errors in the program, plus there are sophisticated ways of doing automated testing that can check to make sure you've not broken features that were seen to be working in previous releases. For example, an AutoHotKey script that opened Sonar with a test file, ran the Export>Audio command, and compared the exported audio against a previous version, would probably have caught the latest Drum Map bug, and without a human having to manually check it. Everybody makes mistakes, but there are tools to catch them. Speaking as a software engineer, I don't think we should be accepting that all code is necessarily faulty. The only way we'll get better software quality from developers is if we demand it.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 07:33:10
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☄ Helpfulby stac 2015/06/06 07:56:54
Yes it is true. We'll have to agree to disagree. Speaking from an idealistic perspective that rarely exists in the real world has little constructive value. All developers think they write perfect code - until something breaks it :) I'm assuming you are a software engineer in a different field other than real time music software. What might work in a more linear environment doesn't quite fit here. We've been doing this a long time and as I said before we have a solid process - well as solid as it can be given the size of our company and our available resources. The latter is by far the most important metric that gates any commercial software development. Ask any software manager on the planet. The vast majority of the kinds of bugs we have in realtime software cannot be found by classic automated testing. Its hardly "sophisticated" to run scripts. You can write automated tests ad nauseam to the point where the tests take longer to write and maintain than the software itself. We'd need an army of people writing and maintaining tests that would become obsolete shortly after they were written. We've been there and done that. Automated tests do work well for more well defined environments where there aren't a million inter dependencies with other features. For example DSP code - we do have automated tests in Vocalsync and other areas that run comparative analysis on inputs and outputs. And we did months of exhaustive research on our onset detection with iterative analysis using Max msp scripts. Bottom line is we already do this stuff and we do the best we can with our available resources. Its easy to point fingers from an idealistic perspective but it has little value in helping to improve the situation. Alerting cakewalk to problems that exist through the channels we already have in place is the best way for end users to improve the software.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2015/06/06 07:59:01
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stac
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 07:49:58
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I'm a software architect/developer myself. Writing bug-free software is completely impossible. The reason is simple: there are too many environment variables. Every computer is different, every user has different software installed, every user has a different workflow, and so on.
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charlyg
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 09:14:10
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Errors are part of the human condition. Nuff said.
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Kylotan
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 09:24:05
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Yes it is true. We'll have to agree to disagree. Speaking from an idealistic perspective that rarely exists in the real world has little constructive value. All developers think they write perfect code - until something breaks it :) I'm assuming you are a software engineer in a different field other than real time music software. What might work in a more linear environment doesn't quite fit here.
Well, like I said, it may not always be cost-effective. I've worked in a real-time software field most of my life (video games) and they too are very hard to do good tests for. No unit test is going to tell you if the game is too hard or the graphics render too dark! :) But I was mostly just making a point about software in general, that there is nothing intrinsic to software that makes it impossible for it to be bug free; it's just about resources. And if users demanded quality over features, software developers would change priorities accordingly.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Kylotan
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 09:26:19
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stac
I'm a software architect/developer myself. Writing bug-free software is completely impossible. The reason is simple: there are too many environment variables. Every computer is different, every user has different software installed, every user has a different workflow, and so on. It may be impossible to guarantee that a certain program does exactly what you want on every machine ever. It's not impossible to guarantee that your software does the right thing, given the necessary resources. If your program breaks because the user has different software installed, then either there is a bug in the OS or a bug in your program. If your program breaks because the user has a workflow you didn't expect, that's your fault, not an inevitability.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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charlyg
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 09:30:16
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For some of us, work does not yet flow. I would hate for them to waste time figuring out why some stupid thing I did "broke" the program...
post edited by charlyg - 2015/06/06 09:36:41
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Kylotan
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 09:32:41
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Well, that's something slightly different. :)
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Anderton
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 10:10:03
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Kylotan
And if users demanded quality over features, software developers would change priorities accordingly.
You will never get users to agree. Some users want to prioritize stability, some users want to prioritize features, and neither side is willing to pay for both.
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BobF
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 10:24:43
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Anderton
Kylotan
And if users demanded quality over features, software developers would change priorities accordingly.
You will never get users to agree. Some users want to prioritize stability, some users want to prioritize features, and neither side is willing to pay for both.
What Craig said, PLUS ... enough users will never agree to the pricing that would be req'd. Funds would soon dry up and the doors would close. Governments are the only ones with pockets deep enough, but they never get it 100% right either. Games? Now you're talking unlimited funding from addiction. The game revenue stream is second only to tax dollars. ;) On a serious note, given that there is a transition period to get thru, I think Noel and his team are doing a very good job balancing things. And just so Noel doesn't relax too much, I reserve the right to change my mind when renewal times comes! :)
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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FCCfirstclass
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 11:42:47
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ampfixer
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 14:50:55
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I know nothing about software development, but I do know a couple things about QA and statistics. It would be hard to track all the interdependencies in Sonar IF there was only one way to do each task and a finite number of tasks. With something as complicated as Sonar the combinations and permutations that the system deals with has to be in the billions.
The term workflow, and the fact that everyone seems to have a unique workflow basically means there's a whole bunch of different ways to arrive at the destination. To have that freedom, I accept the fact that my unique way of doing things may trigger a problem that was unforeseen. My imagination is putting uncertainty into the system. I can live with that.
Good on you Bakers (wizards), keep on working the system.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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RogerH
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 15:07:20
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ampfixer
I know nothing about software development, but I do know a couple things about QA and statistics. It would be hard to track all the interdependencies in Sonar IF there was only one way to do each task and a finite number of tasks. With something as complicated as Sonar the combinations and permutations that the system deals with has to be in the billions.
The term workflow, and the fact that everyone seems to have a unique workflow basically means there's a whole bunch of different ways to arrive at the destination. To have that freedom, I accept the fact that my unique way of doing things may trigger a problem that was unforeseen. My imagination is putting uncertainty into the system. I can live with that.
Good on you Bakers (wizards), keep on working the system.
+1
A song from my band: Terramater My soundcloud pageSonar Platinum Windows 7 Professional (SP1) 64Bit Intel Core i7 Quad Processor i7-2600K 3,4GHz MSI P67A-C45 (MOBO) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 8GB CL9 (2x4GB) Seagate Barracuda® 7200.12 1TB Seagate Barracuda® XT 2TB
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Anderton
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 15:08:27
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ampfixer
The term workflow, and the fact that everyone seems to have a unique workflow basically means there's a whole bunch of different ways to arrive at the destination. To have that freedom, I accept the fact that my unique way of doing things may trigger a problem that was unforeseen. My imagination is putting uncertainty into the system. I can live with that.
That is an excellent point that I have never seen articulated so clearly.
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Woodyoflop
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 15:36:57
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I've found that most of the bugs I personally encounter are usually due to either me or my computer. I havent encountered any real bugs during my use in the new updates. However, i understand we all work differently and do different types of music that may use different chains of processes that can bring out the bugs. The bakers i believe, are doing their best and I've never had a real problem so far. It's a great DAW and its still young in its release. Give it some time to perfect itself. There's no possible way they can test every single situation.
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charlyg
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 16:11:22
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There would be far less bugs if there was only one or two ways of accomplishing the same task. The fact that Sonar seems to have about a half dozen ways to get a particular thing done lends itself to those nasty interdependency(s), but also lends itself to ease of use over many versions.......IMHO of course.
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Zargg
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 16:26:38
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ampfixer
I know nothing about software development, but I do know a couple things about QA and statistics. It would be hard to track all the interdependencies in Sonar IF there was only one way to do each task and a finite number of tasks. With something as complicated as Sonar the combinations and permutations that the system deals with has to be in the billions.
The term workflow, and the fact that everyone seems to have a unique workflow basically means there's a whole bunch of different ways to arrive at the destination. To have that freedom, I accept the fact that my unique way of doing things may trigger a problem that was unforeseen. My imagination is putting uncertainty into the system. I can live with that.
Good on you Bakers (wizards), keep on working the system.
I agree. +1
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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bapu
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 16:48:52
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In the 80/90ss it was popular to quote the TQM model for software development. You can only pick two of the three. Time, Quality or Money(cost of effort). The third will suffer. Suffer is a relative term, but suffer it will. Pick Time (you want it quick) and Money (do it as cheaply as possible or you have/impose resource limitations). What would you expect the Quality to be? Pick Quality and Money. You may NEVER get it. etc. et. al. Maybe I'm old fashioned (I've been an applications programmer since 1979 and still work full time at it) but I think the principals still apply even if we want to delude ourselves with the new terminologies (Agile, Scrum etc.). Noel said it best. None of knows what goes inside The Bakers' oven. Speculation gains nothing.
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bapu
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Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/06/06 16:53:46
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There was also an article published in the 80/90s about QA and touch points. The article concluded that a simple system of moderate touch points tested at the speed of light would take something like 140,000 years (IIRC, it may have been only 14,000) to test all permutations. I'm pretty SONAR would take at least double that.
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