[Consolidated] Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1

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cake2010
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 21:52:50 (permalink)
SongCraft
(6): FX-Bin / Plugins - ............... with Right-Click/menu option to toggle on/off.
 
Clicking the fx name to toggle on/off would be better.
pbk
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/10 21:56:20 (permalink)
+1 Genius!
SongCraft
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:17:19 (permalink)
cake2010


SongCraft
(6): FX-Bin / Plugins - ............... with Right-Click/menu option to toggle on/off.
 
Clicking the fx name to toggle on/off would be better.

Agree but what happens when you click to drag (move or copy) to another track it defaults to opposite status (either off or on) because it was clicked.

 
 
SongCraft
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:37:49 (permalink)
I never use track Icons! But if others want to use them then that's OK, the option is there for Track Icons.


There are problems though, example: I have 16 vocal tracks with 16 vocal track icons, load the old project and WTHeck??? let's play the guessing game. 

Track Icons are cute but they remind me of a kids picture game of guess who.


I much preferred a Mixer View with 'Two Rows' spacing for Track-Titles that would look like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
  L Vox          L Vox B        Har Vox      Har Vox      Har Vox
Mick Daz        Mick Daz        Karen          Jane           Lisa
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


But at the moment in Sonar X1 we have:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
    L                  L                  H                 H                 H
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

along with those 'guess-who' cute little picture track icons!


-
post edited by SongCraft - 2010/12/10 22:39:10

 
 
creynolds
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:44:55 (permalink)
In my dispair over the new CV narrow view, I had actually forgoten what I had really, really hoped for. 'Stacked faders'.
I recently mixed an album with a string section brass and choirs in addition to the usual band set up. With my two 22" 1680x1050 monitors I can currently get a max of 61 faders across both monitors together. Sounds a lot, but it was not enough to be able to see and adjust all the tracks without scrolling.

But . . . If we could stack two pruned down CV windows (Faders, Pans, MSR and Read Write) one above the other and scroll them the possibilities are very exciting and would make mixing much easier.

With two layers of faders we I could:
  1. See over 120 tracks at the same time on two monitors
  2. Get 60 or so tracks on a single monitor and still have the TV on the other monitor
  3. Stack the Tracks over the groups and mains and scroll each to the most important areas at a given moment.
Finally before I forget... We can no longer drag and reposition track or group strips in the CV in order to place the tracks in the desired order. Major, MAJOR bummer.


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ADM3
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:47:54 (permalink)
Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]

While I don't have specific news about if/ when the narrow strips might get tweaked, I did want you guys to know that we are listening and that we hear your concerns loud and clear when it comes to this subject.

I absolutely understand your frustration and when we've got some news we'll pass it along.

I'll do what I can to champion this issue for you all, so please be patient and hang tight.


Thank you Seth. It does make me feel better as a customer to know that this is not falling on deaf ears.
SongCraft
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:52:04 (permalink)
creynolds


In my dispair over the new CV narrow view, I had actually forgoten what I had really, really hoped for. 'Stacked faders'.
I recently mixed an album with a string section brass and choirs in addition to the usual band set up. With my two 22" 1680x1050 monitors I can currently get a max of 61 faders across both monitors together. Sounds a lot, but it was not enough to be able to see and adjust all the tracks without scrolling.

But . . . If we could stack two pruned down CV windows (Faders, Pans, MSR and Read Write) one above the other and scroll them the possibilities are very exciting and would make mixing much easier.

With two layers of faders we I could:
  1. See over 120 tracks at the same time on two monitors
  2. Get 60 or so tracks on a single monitor and still have the TV on the other monitor
  3. Stack the Tracks over the groups and mains and scroll each to the most important areas at a given moment.
Finally before I forget... We can no longer drag and reposition track or group strips in the CV in order to place the tracks in the desired order. Major, MAJOR bummer.

+1 for the stack option :)

Stacking option/key bind would be nice. I guess the fader and track title displays by default but still have up/down scroll to access other parameters in stack mode/view.

Yeah that last one (no reposition) is a bummer :(

.

 
 
creynolds
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 22:55:32 (permalink)
I add my thanks to Seth for responding to this thread. Hopefully the 'if' in his statement was there for political reasons.
My own 'if' is... If this issue is not fixed I would be very surprised .

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creynolds
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 23:03:10 (permalink)
Thanks Songcraft.
I realise that this is a sort of feature request, but it really only boils down to being able to open two (or more?) CV windows at the same time rather than just the one we currently have. I believe that is not a huge deal in programming terms. The windows themselves would be exactly the same in every respect.

What you place in them is subject to the existing functionality of the CV as it stands. If you shrink the window vertically I would expect vertical scroll bars to appear as they already do. What is in the vertical scrolled window would be governed by what you have enabled in the CV view options. Cool huh?

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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 23:21:52 (permalink)
SongCraft


I never use track Icons! But if others want to use them then that's OK, the option is there for Track Icons.


There are problems though, example: I have 16 vocal tracks with 16 vocal track icons, load the old project and WTHeck??? let's play the guessing game. 

Track Icons are cute but they remind me of a kids picture game of guess who.


I much preferred a Mixer View with 'Two Rows' spacing for Track-Titles that would look like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
L Vox          L Vox B        Har Vox      Har Vox      Har Vox
Mick Daz        Mick Daz        Karen          Jane           Lisa
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


But at the moment in Sonar X1 we have:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
   L                  L                  H                 H                 H
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

along with those 'guess-who' cute little picture track icons!


-


haha! You're examples made me laugh. Yes, I think this might be the number one thing people don't like.

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SongCraft
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 23:33:32 (permalink)
Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]

While I don't have specific news about if/ when the narrow strips might get tweaked, I did want you guys to know that we are listening and that we hear your concerns loud and clear when it comes to this subject.

I absolutely understand your frustration and when we've got some news we'll pass it along.

I'll do what I can to champion this issue for you all, so please be patient and hang tight.
Thanks and I hope that 'IF' is taken into 'action'... I hope to see improvements sooner rather than later (Sonar X2 or X3)!

I would like to see more space for track-titles in the Mixer View, and it be nice to see that improved to; 'two-rows' dedicated to track-titles. (see my post #154).   In Mixer View I want to be able to 'see at a glance' the track title without it being terribly abbreviated to just one or a few letters.

Sure I could 'hover' mouse over to see full title but that's not good enough, I want a better workflow, and someone elses suggestion to use track icons is not good enough either because it can get dang confusing especially if it's an old project (I have made mistakes editing the wrong track simply because of that limit allocated for track-titles) and again Track icons are not entirely useful especially for old projects and I can't be bothered wasting my time with them, I rather focus my time on making music instead.



-

 
 
ba_midi
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/10 23:34:53 (permalink)
Sure I could 'hover' mouse over to see full title but that's not good enough, I want a better workflow, and someone elses suggestion to use track icons is not good enough either because it can get dang confusing especially if it's an old project (I have made mistakes editing the wrong track simply because of that limit allocated for track-titles) and again Track icons are not entirely useful especially for old projects and I can't be bothered wasting my time with them, I rather focus my time on making music instead.


I feel the same way about track icons.


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D K
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/10 23:35:36 (permalink)
Man, just saw this ....testing X1 now

Dude, you are talented and need to be hired NOW!!!

This GUI is even worse then I thought and what you posted is perfect

For heaven's sake Seth, Andrew, Brandon??? - I'm sitting here staring at a 27 inch screen and I can only get 18 tracks across it....meanwhile....I have about 8 feet (ok, I'm exaggerating!) of absolutely DEAD SPACE at the top of the screen...I mean....REALLY??????

You guys are better then this.....
post edited by D K - 2010/12/10 23:36:41

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Jose7822
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 03:49:40 (permalink)
D K


Man, just saw this ....testing X1 now

Dude, you are talented and need to be hired NOW!!!

This GUI is even worse then I thought and what you posted is perfect

For heaven's sake Seth, Andrew, Brandon??? - I'm sitting here staring at a 27 inch screen and I can only get 18 tracks across it....meanwhile....I have about 8 feet (ok, I'm exaggerating!) of absolutely DEAD SPACE at the top of the screen...I mean....REALLY??????

You guys are better then this.....

x 1,000
 
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chrisharbin
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 03:57:14 (permalink)
Forgive if it's been mentioned, but there is weird behavior with using "narrow". If I decide to choose the prochannel in the console view, and then uncheck it, it goes back to wide. Also, if you have a template set up with certain tracks narrow, every new track is narrow.

a. Isn't is supposed to be possible to have some tracks narrow and others wide?
b. I would think that if you have a narrow strip but want to select the prochannel, when the prochannel is collapsed, shouldn't it go back to being a narrow channel??

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KyRo
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 04:42:26 (permalink)
Looks GREAT, n0rd! CW should use your idea and give you $100 ;)
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 04:49:44 (permalink)
:)  +1  Very nice! I just hope CW implements it.
post edited by Judah - 2010/12/11 04:50:48
subtlearts
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 05:08:54 (permalink)
chrisharbin


Forgive if it's been mentioned, but there is weird behavior with using "narrow". If I decide to choose the prochannel in the console view, and then uncheck it, it goes back to wide. Also, if you have a template set up with certain tracks narrow, every new track is narrow.

a. Isn't is supposed to be possible to have some tracks narrow and others wide?
b. I would think that if you have a narrow strip but want to select the prochannel, when the prochannel is collapsed, shouldn't it go back to being a narrow channel??

I guess the 'workaround' is to pop open the Inspector and work on the channel in there without changing the CV, but still - not a bad idea. 


regarding the stacking concept - I gather there has been some mention elsewhere of the idea of two Multidocks - and why not, really, if you've got the screenspace?... that might solve the stacked-mixer issue into the bargain, assuming it were 'allowed' by the program. 

Just thinking out loud...

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SongCraft
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 05:53:38 (permalink)
To the OP:

IMO you have some good ideas, but also not very well thought out ideas,  here's just one example - suggestion:

I would prefer to see '2 rows' dedicated to Track-Titles displayed in their own text labeled section. 

Like this:
__________
Lead Voc A1
Lisa H Jones
----------------


The core problem is 'Narrow View'
A typical mixer channel strip is limited in horizontal space, the end results will always be a severe compromise.  To resolve that issue: the narrow view is replaced by 'Stacked' mixer view (option).

Like I said; the very nature of the mixer channel strips don't allow enough 'horizontal space' thereby essentials such as; Track Titles and other components (parameters, numerical values) are severely compromised (tiny narrow fonts, tiny graphs, cluttered look arghhhh) IMO most software DAW mixer designs are awful :(

Also, IMO track icons aren't entirely useful especially when loading up old projects or a project done by someone else since it can be very confusing (and time wasting) trying to remember or figure out which of the 16 vocal tracks is the one I need to edit, often I have done several edits (envelopes) then later realized it was the wrong freaking track.

At the moment Sonar X1 provides an incredibly ridiculous 'one' letter limit for Track Titles (in narrow mixer view), in standard view only several more letters available.  Now people suggest smaller, tiny,  narrower fonts?  *ARGHHHHHHH*  IMO this is totally unacceptable and again; a severe compromise. :(

Oh well, again my post is a waste of time; last year I and others contributed a lot in discussions, shared ideas among us, I compiled that list, submitted feature requests that also included Track Titles improvements.  Now I see that CW has taken the opposite step a huge leap backward in the UI design of the mixer.

 Meanwhile; I have two choices;

(1) use previous version of Sonar.

(2) don't use the Sonar X1 ridiculous Mixer (make do with the Inspector)!

-

 
 
SongCraft
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 06:08:23 (permalink)
subtlearts


chrisharbin


Forgive if it's been mentioned, but there is weird behavior with using "narrow". If I decide to choose the prochannel in the console view, and then uncheck it, it goes back to wide. Also, if you have a template set up with certain tracks narrow, every new track is narrow.

a. Isn't is supposed to be possible to have some tracks narrow and others wide?
b. I would think that if you have a narrow strip but want to select the prochannel, when the prochannel is collapsed, shouldn't it go back to being a narrow channel??

I guess the 'workaround' is to pop open the Inspector and work on the channel in there without changing the CV, but still - not a bad idea. 


regarding the stacking concept - I gather there has been some mention elsewhere of the idea of two Multidocks - and why not, really, if you've got the screenspace?... that might solve the stacked-mixer issue into the bargain, assuming it were 'allowed' by the program. 

Just thinking out loud...
Keep thinking out aloud :)

+1

-



 
 
cake2010
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 06:25:06 (permalink)
SongCraft


cake2010


SongCraft
(6): FX-Bin / Plugins - ............... with Right-Click/menu option to toggle on/off.

Clicking the fx name to toggle on/off would be better.

Agree but what happens when you click to drag (move or copy) to another track it defaults to opposite status (either off or on) because it was clicked.


I don´t think it´s a problem, because it can keep the status when it´s clicked (and hold) for longer time to drag.
Rimshot
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 08:32:29 (permalink)
+1 n0rd!!!  I am with you all the way.  We need to get something like your idea implemented ASAP.  IMO there are no "workarounds" for this issue.  How can we focus on writing music when we can't find the track we need the instant we need it?  You have come up with a great solution.  Cakewalk, please respond!
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Re:X1 Narrow Console - My Dream 2010/12/11 10:27:12 (permalink)
Seth has said they will be tweaking this - at some point
Hope they see n0rd's pic - it looks great
The only complaint I have with X1 so far is the colours & the console view
I loved the 8.5 console


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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 11:31:42 (permalink)
cake2010


SongCraft
(6): FX-Bin / Plugins - ............... with Right-Click/menu option to toggle on/off.

Clicking the fx name to toggle on/off would be better.

Middle button clicking the FX name would be great.

Best Regards,  
Marek

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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 11:39:14 (permalink)
cake2010


SongCraft


cake2010


SongCraft
(6): FX-Bin / Plugins - ............... with Right-Click/menu option to toggle on/off.

Clicking the fx name to toggle on/off would be better.

Agree but what happens when you click to drag (move or copy) to another track it defaults to opposite status (either off or on) because it was clicked.


I don´t think it´s a problem, because it can keep the status when it´s clicked (and hold) for longer time to drag.

I think it will be a problem when double clicking to bring up the FX GUI.
But how about just making the first letter of the FX name be the on/off switch?



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cake2010
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 12:35:28 (permalink)
drewfx1

I think it will be a problem when double clicking to bring up the FX GUI.
But how about just making the first letter of the FX name be the on/off switch?

Yea I thought about double clicking too, it´s just a matter of time delay between clicks. It´s easy to do.
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 12:44:25 (permalink)
Yeah, it's bog-standard windows behaviour. Click, Double Click, and Click-drag-release are all entirely separate actions.

More accurately, single click is (roughly) "MouseDown followed by MouseUp with movement of less than X". Where Click-Drag-Release is "Mouse Down followed by movement greater than X followeed by MouseUp". I'm oversimplifying a bit, but you get the picture.

From a system point of view, the computer does not get confused between these things, and for users, it's so intuitive you ever really have to think about it.

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cake2010
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 13:03:58 (permalink)
deleted
post edited by cake2010 - 2010/12/13 15:47:18
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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 13:15:54 (permalink)
This is more like what I'd like to see. We need more information in less space so we don't have to be scrolling or jumping around as much. 





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Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/11 13:20:52 (permalink)
My version is actually 1:1 so it can hold double the channels than the narrow strip currently. 
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