I've been waiting for my turn to create one of these "super-mega-half-page-quoted" responses, so here it goes.
ORIGINAL: bigweb
ORIGINAL: axe
That has been my point all along ... the winds of change are blowing. The Intel Mac is a historical change to the industry.
The intel mac is Apples' last gasp attempt to stave off the inevitable.
I predict that Apple will eventually drop the OS altogether and just make the computers.
Computers that run MS Windows. they will become another PC maker like Dell or HP.
Hmm... I actually hope not.
Windows is a fine OS, but MS drives me crazy. I've had half a dozen "genuine advantage" checks fail in the last two weeks. They're actually telling me that my perfectly legal copies of Windows and Office and Visio ARE NOT genuine. The only solution so far is to reinstall the OS (in the case of Windows validation failure) or restore the OS to a point before Office has been installed, and then install Office (in the case of Office validation failure), and THEN perform the update. Don't ask me why these copies just sitting there are different from the fresh install, but MS thinks they are.
My point is this:
Whether we like it or not, from where I sit at least, the only thing keeping MS from being a totalitarian software house is Apple.
Linux, like it though I might (and I do) isn't, from where I sit amongst 200+ Linux machines, going to be a competitor over the next 3-5 years minimum. There are many reasons for this, and I'm very confident in my opinion, but Apple'nix (which is actually what it is) keep MS in check. Take them out of the picture, and MS will run all over its user-base, I'm quite sure.
In fact, the only times I've ever been considering moving 100% to Mac has been because of Microsoft, not Windows, but then I remember that Apple is actually not much better, if at all, and if the situation changes too much, like them gaining 25% market share, they'll do the same thing: activations on everything, dongles on their software (which they already do), etc.
Which brings me to another point...
I actually see this the other way. I don't think OS X is going anywhere. There is a VERY dedicated, fanatical user-base that's willing to pay $140 every year for trivial updates (10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, and soon to be released 10.5). The changes are so minor its unbelievable, and most of the changes are actually just ports to their UI of existing 'nix apps... like Leopard's "Spaces," which is really just a very slightly different take on multiple desktops (and very likely mostly that project's code) that 'nix flavors have had for nearly a decade.
Given that willing (and blissfully ignorant, IMO) userbase, and the fact that OS X now runs on PC hardware, I think they'll move back to the model they used to have: the ability to run OS X on clone machines.
It's win, win...
They can get a few Windows users who also use Macs (and I think that's the only people who will stay in the long-term) to bootcamp or run parallels... AND, they can get a few Windows users who don't want to buy a Mac for one reason or the other, but who also need both, to buy OS X.
If this type of thing happens, and I think it is inevitable, there won't be any difference between the two choices... straight-boot one on the other, or run virtualized on one or the other.
They're core isn't going to move, and they know it. This thread, and the others, prove that. Once you're in the cult... you're in... hook, line and sinker.
And, the fact that since they don't write much of it, it's cheap to update/maintain (hopefully, we all know its Unix with a Windowing system, and very little more... basically a corporate-backed Unix/Linux).
18 months, give or take... just watch... even if they don't want it to. (Not actually new... this was an old Apple model, long ago)
And, when they do, they'll add activation code too (which, because of the "hardware dongle" that someone else called Apple hardware, they don't currently take the time to do).
Wait till Leopard rolls out give it a few quarters and let's see where Apple is. The user that I am seeing them attract is a user that may have bought Sonar.
By that stage Vista will be mature, the bugs ironed out and Leopard will be just another Mac OS....
Yeah... I've watched Leopard (literally), and its more of the same... a few changes here and there, but very little different. They'll market it well, and it will sell, and I'll get it because it frees up the 4GB MAX memory limit per application that Tiger ENFORCES (yes, Tiger isn't true 64bit). That alone, makes it worthwhile, but even with that, it's just getting to where Windows X64 was nearly 2 years ago, 64bit-wise (though they've been marketing it as a true 64bit OS for years now).
Vista will be fine, and Leopard isn't likely to do much to it.
The performance is the same anyway, I don't care what the Apple noobs say. I've seen this firsthand many times... two equal machines, with XP and Tiger, run identically, latency and all (sorry... they do... no wavert needed). Vista and Leopard will be the same. If anything, wavert will tip in in Windows favor, but we're a long way from being able to say definitely, so at this point that's just my opinion.
The mix could very well change to Apple holding the multimedia market and Windows comfortably holding the business market. That wouldn't put Microsoft out of business by a long shot but it would catastrophic to Cakewalk if they remain Windows only.
It would be a huge deal to Apple.
Other way 'round fool. MS will become a major player in the Multimedia market.
Once they turn the screw Apple will be in real trouble....
Indeed. MS is not unaware of the shift in public media interest... the apps are there, the machines are affordable... and MS doesn't play. Media = money... MS and Apple are both all about that.
Most seem to be nervously waiting to see what Logic 8 is.
To 99.9% of SONAR users Logic is irrelevant.
I'm an oddball on two counts. I'm in the .1%, since I use Logic every day (used it for years, actually)... AND, I'm in no hurry for Logic Pro 8, as I find Logic Pro 7.2 a mature and near feature-complete app.
So... Logic Pro isn't irrelevant to me, but LP 8 is.
The funny thing about Logic Pro is that VERY NEAR ZERO Logic Pro users would even consider moving to a Sonar port, if one existed, me included.
It's really not because Logic Pro is better, it's that it's very near feature-complete, where Sonar (and I mean this with love and respect) is not, where the features that matter to Logic Pro users are concerned.
Sonar has no "environment" concept... and I'm sorry, if you haven't used it, it's really hard to explain its power. It's not a simple tool, but its complete madness.
Sonar doesn't have side-chaining.
Sonar lacks some of the midi capabilities.
Sonar lacks in the Staff viewing/editing area.
Sonar lacks in some of the video scoring capabilities.
Sonar can't come even close to the instrument/effects bundle that Logic Pro has (however, Rapture + z3ta+ + Dim Pro included would cover the instrument front).
Sonar can't match the sample/preset package that Logic Pro has for its bundled instruments (though, again, the inclusion of their top 3 instruments would).
Logic Pro has an unbelievable amount of buried (ie - difficult to find without long-term usage) features that Sonar doesn't have.
There are some usability issues people have asked for, and some defects that Apple's more-or-less ignored, of course... and a few features that other DAWs have that they don't. But, I personally don't think Logic Pro 8 is going to be one of those "look at all these new features and plugins" application. I could be wrong, but I think it will likely be about the UI, and usability, and workflow.
Note that this isn't meant as anything negative toward Sonar. I don't want Sonar to be Logic Pro, and it doesn't have to. Sonar is Sonar and Logic Pro is Logic Pro.
Sonar's excellent... I don't prefer Logic Pro, and indeed actually use Sonar more that LP these days... a trend that will likely continue.
But, I do use it, and I know about some of the differences, and know about some of the things that current Logic Pro users care about and feel strongly about, and a Sonar port in its current form won't do it for them.
None of this, by the way, had anything to do with Apple.
They basically haven't done anything with Logic:
Logic Pro 5.5 and 6 was eMagic, and its feature set was nearly complete at that point, pretty close to what it is now, actually.
Logic Pro 6.2 was mostly LP6, with the (formerly separated) instruments included, and their convolution reverb included (instead of a separate purchase).
Logic Pro 7 was a UI overhaul, + a couple of (previously in-the-works-by-emagic) extra plugins thrown in.
At some point, and I don't remember whether it was 7.0 or 7.1, they bundled their (formerly separated) EXS24 libraries, and added a ton of new presets. They charged us for that.
7.2 was universal binary, but still somewhat crippled by that 4GB per application Tiger maximum memory bit.
Apple's basically left it alone, and they've charged for what they actually did.
I've had all of those but 6. Logic Pro's been sitting mostly still for far longer than the 2+ years since LP7 was released, which is one of the reasons why there are so many rumors about LP8... it feels abandoned.
My points are these:
LP users aren't all waiting for LP8...
Almost none of them would give Sonar a second thought, just as most Sonar users wouldn't (and shouldn't, necessarily) give Logic Pro a thought.
Sonar needs to be feature-complete before its even considered... you know: all those things the users have been asking for, like midi improvements, and side-chaining, and the score editor stuff the recent email poll by Cakewalk eluded to.
In the end, Sonar, on Windows or Mac, will be very different from Logic Pro (I hope), and I hope it stays exactly where it is: Sonar on Windows doing its thing, and Logic Pro on Macs doing their thing... while running Windows on a bootcamped Mac... or while running OS X on a self-built PC.
Take care,
- zevo
(Wasn't this thread about DRM? Wow... 3 Mac vs. PC threads at the same time. Classic.)
post edited by inmazevo - 2007/04/11 22:56:51