The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:37:36
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"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
When does X3 come out?
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Pragi
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:39:41
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Sharke wrote:I don't think it spells the death of Sonar. They put out a customer survey recently, and they also just announced some new Pro Channel modules. Doesn't sound like the actions of a company that's planning to retire a product. I think the big issue here is "will they fix X2 or release X3?" And to me the silence suggests that they're not going to release another patch. If they were, they would have hinted at it by now. Whereas a totally new release is something that they'd have to give themselves more time to get ready for. I don't think they'd say anything until they had the marketing blurb ready. Hence the silence. Just my $0.02. Hi Sharke, that seems to be a never ending discussion. We already had new content club,pc modules, new forum, costumer survey and some hinds from the bakers,that they are really busy. The real question is about the next upgrade- X3, or ? Sharke hits the point!!!
post edited by Pragi - 2013/07/01 12:49:09
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jimusic
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:48:12
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No matter how strong, wise or determined a corporate strategy is or can be, the most successful business's are not necessarily the stiff-necked, but the ones that are flexible enough to consider restructuring said 'strategies' - and make changes where & when necessary.
Now although it has been suggested in another thread that Cake's best move might be to stay absolutely silent & give nothing away at all for now, in case they 'get damned', isn't watching your tired, angered, fed-up customers jumping ship & scooping up the competitors DAW, [at full price no less, not even cross-grade or upgrade prices], to the point where they can't even keep enough of them in stock to keep up with the demand, 'getting damned' already?
Some might even call it 'getting slammed' - against the proverbial wall!
A posturing of silence may look good at the Board of Directors table from the CEO, but when some 'intern, just barely out of high school with his shirt buttoned up wrong' busts through the door dripping in sweat & anxiety to interrupt the meeting with the news that customers are now bailing by the 10's & possibly by the 100's, isn't time to at least reconsider said 'silent strategies'?
I certainly would!
These customers have paid good money, [which is many times in short supply these days], and supported this company in many ways, and hence fully deserve bug fixes and/or the news thereof, including answered tech support emails & realistic expectations, etc.
[Myself, I have over $1000 in 'My Registered Software' in the Cake store.]
When sales are going else where, it would definitely be time to 'rethink' things if it were my company or call.
I can't imagine otherwise.
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:49:28
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mike_mccue
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
When does X3 come out?
There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:53:46
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I've got some 15 year old bug fixes I'm waiting to have fixed.
I tried paying every year.
Then I tried paying and complaining.
Then I tried just complaining.
I'm actually thinking about paying some more.
I like you guys.
all the best,
mike
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cowboydan
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 12:59:25
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
mike_mccue
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
When does X3 come out?
There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?
Not to be rude I agree with you in the fact that a lot of good things came out of Sonar, but I believe with all the problem reports that came in to the company that you cannot ignore that seeing as the customer has to deal with this almost every day.
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jimusic
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:04:34
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cowboydan
grem
...If you don't like the way things are going, get the f out! But just shut the f up already!
I believe freedom of speech does apply here. Since you are not God or some other entity , just don't click on the feed.
+1 If you don't like what you read, then stop reading, but we have paid good money which entitles us every right to have our say - just as you do. It's easy to see that you're frustrated, and hence have posted about that. So why wouldn't we have the exact same right to post about our frustrations here? Telling us to ' shut the f up' on a forum where everything posted is discussion, thought, opinion, fact or fiction is like telling the airplane not to bother heading for the runway - not gonna happen!
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dxp
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:25:44
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mike_mccue
I've got some 15 year old bug fixes I'm waiting to have fixed.
I tried paying every year.
Then I tried paying and complaining.
Then I tried just complaining.
I'm actually thinking about paying some more.
I like you guys.
all the best,
mike
After 15 years now they're just considered 'features'... I'll probably 'pay some more' too Mike. I'm too old to start dating a new girl....
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ekral
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:30:47
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It is not so serious, to feel very bad about Cakewalk. I think that developers and technical support are working hard on bug fixes and new features.
But marketing guys sometimes becomes too silly. I still think that this is the part of stupid "wow marketing strategy" how to keep all features secret and let users to be surprise as much as possible. Unfortunately this does not work nowadays, because bug fixing releases becomes the industry standard in the last decade.
Sonar X3 Studio 64-bit, Roland QUAD-CAPTURE (driver 1.5.1), Windows 8 Pro 64-bit, XNL Addictive Drums 64-bit, DiscoDSP Corona 64-bit
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cparmerlee
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:32:10
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Grem
Come on people! I have seen enough of these "No Update" and "The Bakers not talking to us!" threads that I am appalled that someone keeps starting ANOTHER ONE! Good God! Enough.
If you don't like the way things are going, get the f out! But just shut the f up already!
I am new to Sonar, so maybe my opinion is not very well informed. But I have been in professional software development operations since 1973, in both coding and marketing positions, so I do hear familiar themes from that experience. My calculator says that is 40 years of professional software experience, which is undoubtedly longer than many of you have been alive. In that entire time, I can't recall a single successful software vendor in a fast-moving segment who consistently divulged their true plans in detail. I can recall hundreds of product launches where companies promised and promised with hype upon layer of hype. In the end, none of them were successful, to my knowledge. And conversely, the most successful companies made sure they didn't over-promise, didn't give their competition too many early clues, and tried hard not to undermine current product sales by freezing their customer base too early. It is absurd to expect Cakewalk to pre-announce their plans in detail. I do understand the frustration and anticipation that is magnified by what many here describe as a complete blackout of information. I would note that Cakewalk does loads of communication on their Facebook site and via email campaigns. So it isn't that they are being silent. They just aren't revealing detailed product plans. And regarding responsiveness to specific problems, I don't have any experience with that, but it has become common in the software business to roll solutions into the next product rather than address them immediately. I wish that were not the case, but I don't think Cakewalk is alone in that situation. I sense there may be an expectations problem here. It seems that those who are most frustrated are viewing Sonar as a professional-grade product around which a commercial studio could be built. That was never my expectation. The pricing of the product indicated to me the product position was "Something approaching what a fully-equipped professional studio would use, but at a basement band price." Those who are expecting more probably should follow Grem's advice. But other than ProTools, which seems to be the Cadillac (and Cadillac-priced) product, my guess is that the grass isn't any greener with Cubase, Live or any of the other products in this category. Rather than creating yet another hate mail thread, which clearly is not changing Cakewalk's marketing decisions, I suggest that folks invest that time in converting to one of the other products, and please let us know if the grass is truly greener over there.
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:36:17
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2013/07/01 16:25:41
cowboydan
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
mike_mccue
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
When does X3 come out?
There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?
Not to be rude I agree with you in the fact that a lot of good things came out of Sonar, but I believe with all the problem reports that came in to the company that you cannot ignore that seeing as the customer has to deal with this almost every day.
Part of what I do for Cakewalk is managing tech support, the fault reporter system, the problem reporter system and escalated support with our partners. I don't mean to be rude either (nor arrogant) but out of everyone on this forum today, I truly believe I have a very realistic view of the problems that come in as well as how many people legitimately love SONAR and are very pleased with the product. Nobody is "ignoring" customers nor issues with the product. We have a direct line of communication for everyone to contact us that has been stated countless times. There's even a forum sticky for everyone to see that lists how to go about it. It's been stated again and again that the forum is not a direct line of communication for us supporting our customers. There's a huge part of this story nobody on this forum is seeing. A lot of times people reporting issues on the forum have never even contacted our support team (and sometimes they'll even outright lie about this for some reason). We don't even charge for technical support, something that is for the most part unheard of with our competitors. Some of our direct competitors charge $300 a year for support, $5+ a minute, or $30+ a case. So when I see statements (in general not necessarily in this thread) about Cakewalk not supporting its customers, these statements couldn't be further from the truth. For whatever its worth, my part time gig is at a music college where we teach Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer, Ableton Live, Waves, NI, etc. etc. so myself (as well as many other Cakewalkers) have a very realistic view of the state of other products as well. This isn't just me either, pretty much everyone at Cakewalk is a power user in multiple products and has a pretty well rounded understanding of what else is out there and what the customer experience is. We're customers too. If you're running into major issues with SONAR X2, you should contact our support team so we can work towards a solution. We know all about this stuff. We use the products too. We are also SONAR users. We also know ProTools, Studio One, Live, Logic, etc. Seriously, I think many folks will be surprised to find we know all about troubleshooting and learning new things. Give us a chance. SONAR X2a is not perfect, and there are minor bugs that pop up from time to time, but even with that being the case it is an extremely nice product that I'm convinced with proper support, proper hardware, and proper communication can be a great solution for anyone. For whatever it is worth, the only recent case I can find from you on record was a question asking if X2b would be released to fix audio dropout issues. If you're experiencing audio dropouts, it's not SONAR that needs to be fixed with an update. Check out this article when you get a chance: http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013007 If that doesn't point you in the right direction, give our support team a call and we'll help you further. I'm sure we can get to the bottom of it.
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bapu
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:39:30
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☄ Helpfulby Grem 2013/07/01 16:01:06
sharke
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
It's not realistic to expect us to communicate about product plans, road maps, or business plans. I understand the frustration but don't take the silence as a sign of something bad. FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade. It's nothing new. We are all hard at work and when we have something we can discuss, we'll definitely communicate that to our customers via our website, emails, and forums.
I do want to stress that anyone having serious issues should always contact Cakewalk support directly. We are happy to help out and often times a quick call can resolve an issue.
I appreciate your post Andrew, but we're not looking for any top secret product plans or road maps. Just some info about whether or not X2 is going to be patched again would suffice.
Sharke, Any word on X2b (or patches in general) could be construed as an indication of further delay of X3. As an ex-software developer I would never step into that quagmire in a public forum by making such a specific declaration. I applaud Andrew's handling of this thread the way he did.
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ekral
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:55:05
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Sonar X3 Studio 64-bit, Roland QUAD-CAPTURE (driver 1.5.1), Windows 8 Pro 64-bit, XNL Addictive Drums 64-bit, DiscoDSP Corona 64-bit
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gswitz
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:55:22
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Mike m makes me laugh.
And Ryan, thanks for your posts. You make me feel happy.
I like the cakewalk family too.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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musicroom
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:55:37
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I guess I don't get it. Sonar has worked well for me over the years. If it didn't, I would switch to something that did. I only speak to how I use it - audio mainly with a few midi tracks.
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 13:57:20
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2013/07/02 20:48:14
cparmerlee
I sense there may be an expectations problem here. It seems that those who are most frustrated are viewing Sonar as a professional-grade product around which a commercial studio could be built. That was never my expectation. The pricing of the product indicated to me the product position was "Something approaching what a fully-equipped professional studio would use, but at a basement band price." Those who are expecting more probably should follow Grem's advice. But other than ProTools, which seems to be the Cadillac (and Cadillac-priced) product, my guess is that the grass isn't any greener with Cubase, Live or any of the other products in this category. Rather than creating yet another hate mail thread, which clearly is not changing Cakewalk's marketing decisions, I suggest that folks invest that time in converting to one of the other products, and please let us know if the grass is truly greener over there.
It is clear to me why someone new to SONAR would have this perspective. If you were a long time Cakewalk customer you would know that Cakewalk was one of the first professional MIDI sequencers and that professional musicians gladly paid good money to record and spit back MIDI programing with it. Then about 8 years after that was established Cakewalk introduced a Product call Cakewalk Pro Audio 6 and it was astonishing to see that it could handle multi track audio better than most of our existing tape based multi track mechanisms. Astonishing. Then a couple years after that we were introduced to streaming efx and virtual instruments with an open plug in architecture. People that owned professional TDM systems had no idea that some professionals were making native processing work. It took another 12 years for some people to figure out that it works. Then slowly, ever so slowly, year after year, Cakewalk began to present their top tier professional product as a smorgasbord or kitchen sink package meant to appeal as a complete, turnkey, one stop shopping solution for people new to SONAR. The moniker "Producer" became a meaningless colloquialism. It's easy to ignore features I don't use... I've been asked by Cakewalk reps to ignore the Step Sequencer, the Matrix, the Arp, the Pro Channel. It's hard to wait for bugs to be fixed while witnessing new features being rolled out and then learning that even they will be waiting on bugs fixes before the folks that wanted the new features will enjoy them. I do not think it's correct to conclude that customers' unrealistic expectations are what have set the bar so high. The presentation of more and more, for less and less, has had a profound effect. best regards, mike
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brconflict
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:03:07
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Ryan,
Thanks for chiming in. Always appreciated to at least see someone address concerns such as these. I do have a few questions/comments, though, and hopefully won't ostracize myself from credibility I might have as a CW customer:
You mentioned that you're very aware of issues and that this forum is not to be used for direct support. I would beg that if you peruse Steinberg's forums, you'll see, not only are they very well laid out, but it's frequent that engineers or support staff will go through the forums and make suggestions that seems to be helpful, or at least say something like, "I'll take a look at that. Can you try [this] and tell me what happens?", or "That's a known bug in version x.x.x." It may not be as efficient as what Cakewalk does, but I really love their way (I own Wavelab for Mastering, so I'm there frequently).
It's ok if Cakewalk is stern about how they should be contacted regarding bugs, support calls, etc, but would Cakewalk either consider 24/7 support, or rethink working with us in the forums? Not all of us do this for a living, and we have daytime jobs, too. Many studios operate late night and on weekends. I'd pay for support to get those hours like I do with Waves, but it's not even an option here.
When reporting bugs, when/if there's any movement, I don't see it for at least 1-2 month(s). Any time I get a response, it's for an issue I reported, but I couldn't remember for what half the time because of the length of time in silence.
My sincere apologies for being so blunt, but Cakewalk doesn't seem to get the picture, from my perspective.
Thanks!
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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brconflict
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:05:53
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
mike_mccue
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
When does X3 come out?
There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?
I wouldn't ignore that, but if I'm not ready for X3's features (as I wasn't ready for Take Lanes in X2), I'd still like to get a patch for X2 in the meantime. When X3 comes out, which I'm guessing is probably next, why can't Cakewalk offer a patch for X2 at the same time? Surely those fixes can be separated? Thanks!
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:06:46
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2013/07/02 20:53:29
bapu
sharke
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
It's not realistic to expect us to communicate about product plans, road maps, or business plans. I understand the frustration but don't take the silence as a sign of something bad. FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade. It's nothing new. We are all hard at work and when we have something we can discuss, we'll definitely communicate that to our customers via our website, emails, and forums.
I do want to stress that anyone having serious issues should always contact Cakewalk support directly. We are happy to help out and often times a quick call can resolve an issue.
I appreciate your post Andrew, but we're not looking for any top secret product plans or road maps. Just some info about whether or not X2 is going to be patched again would suffice.
Sharke,
Any word on X2b (or patches in general) could be construed as an indication of further delay of X3.
As an ex-software developer I would never step into that quagmire in a public forum by making such a specific declaration.
I applaud Andrew's handling of this thread the way he did.
Yes, exactly. It's a slippery slope when you start commenting on product plans and business plans. We just can't do it and honestly I don't know many other companies that are getting on their peer-to-peer forum to discuss product plans and other confidential information. We did a survey recently to our entire user base to get some more information so we can improve SONAR. We communicate weekly via newsletters and social media. We update our site regularly. We even come here every so often to answer questions. I think the real issue is not that we don't communicate or ignore our customers but that we won't answer questions that are part of overall business plan. The fact is we care a lot about customers. We try to offer as much value as we can to users. That includes Content Club, free videos and tips, special offers, and more. We offer free support and we probably communicate more in the peer-to-peer forum than any of our other competitors. We just released a new product last week. We have many more exciting announcements coming up. When we are ready, we will most definitely communicate. In the past I have seen countless threads that have nothing to do with SONAR or music on this forum. They involve Roland, ex-employees, product plans. We get countless complaints about them but in the fairness of discussion we leave them up. You do know that a lot of other companies delete those threads :) We completely understand that you want to know what's next for SONAR. We can't comment at this time. Asking this question 10 different ways isn't going to change the answer. And putting ominous threads like this up spelling the demise of Cakewalk because we don't answer this one specific question isn't going to make us reveal our plans. I hope people understand that. Please be patient. I can say that SONAR's future is very bright. We are listening to users and when we have more information, we will let you know (I promise).
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ampfixer
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:06:56
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I'm very happy to hear from the mods today. Thanks for dropping in boys.
I guess what we don't see as users are the normal bits of being a business. When I was a quality assurance point man in a manufacturing division of 1,000 people, all I did was go to meetings and answer phone calls. The real work was for after 5:00 pm and weekends. IF I wanted to start a new initiative there was paperwork and a series of approvals all the way up to the president. It often took months to just get approval to fix something. Corporations are the sloths at times, while small business can be fast and flexible.
I imagine the rate of development at Cakewalk has slowed because there's more red tape involved in a corporate environment the size of Roland. Now, Cakewalk has a business plan and process that is part of a bigger animal. If they don't comply to the corporate franchise rules.... well, the corporation can freeze them out. They are no longer the little company that could, they are a strategic business unit within a huge corporation. If they want money to make changes they have to make a business case for it.
Corporations are bad and I feel sorry for the gang at Cakewalk. If we feel this frustrated, just imagine what it's like on the inside
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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ekral
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:08:28
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brconflict
I wouldn't ignore that, but if I'm not ready for X3's features (as I wasn't ready for Take Lanes in X2), I'd still like to get a patch for X2 in the meantime. When X3 comes out, which I'm guessing is probably next, why can't Cakewalk offer a patch for X2 at the same time? Surely those fixes can be separated? Thanks!
Yes, it is all about regular and frequent bug fixing releases.
Sonar X3 Studio 64-bit, Roland QUAD-CAPTURE (driver 1.5.1), Windows 8 Pro 64-bit, XNL Addictive Drums 64-bit, DiscoDSP Corona 64-bit
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vintagevibe
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:14:00
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Cakewalk has for decades ignored the requests, pleas and downright begging by a significant section its of customers. They have refused to implement even the slightest real improvement to the staff view. In this respect they have made a strategic decision to ignore a portion of their customer base. This is the reason I am moving to Cubase 7 even though I have been with Cakewalk loyally since the early '90s. I have finally realized my loyalty has been misguided.
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ekral
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:15:14
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☄ Helpfulby Kev999 2013/07/01 19:51:21
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
We get countless complaints about them but in the fairness of discussion we leave them up. You do know that a lot of other companies delete those threads :)
We can't comment at this time. Asking this question 10 different ways
I do not write complains, but suggestions. I think that there is simple and easy solution: 1) Make "Feature request" section on forum with voting system. 2) Make moderated "Issue report" section with Solved/Unsolved marks. 3) publish more frequently bug fixing releases.
Sonar X3 Studio 64-bit, Roland QUAD-CAPTURE (driver 1.5.1), Windows 8 Pro 64-bit, XNL Addictive Drums 64-bit, DiscoDSP Corona 64-bit
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cowboydan
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:17:42
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I believe after seeing all the replies I can conclude we are in for a long wait before all the extra features can be fully exploited in Sonar.
As for Ryan, Thank you very much for coming on the forum and giving up valuable time to at least say something. I found your replies to be very forthcoming concidering what you can actually say.
I also believe that your replies will help a few more people on the forum. The misunderstandings will still be here, but at least there was some kind of reply that we will have to accept.
I haven't got the money to call support every time from Holland.
As far as your statement that many users don't report problems with Sonar is because a number of people have already reported them and have said that on the forum. I dont have the feeling that people would LIE about submitting a report.
I also believe that with a full time "Bakers"job and your parttime gigs that we are going to have to accept that it's going to take a little longer to get where we would like to be.
Once again I would like to thank you for coming out of your busy schedule to communicate with Us.
High Regards
Danny
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:18:20
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ekral
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
We get countless complaints about them but in the fairness of discussion we leave them up. You do know that a lot of other companies delete those threads :)
We can't comment at this time. Asking this question 10 different ways
I do not write complains, but suggestions. I think that there is simple and easy solution:
1) Make "Feature request" section on forum with voting system.
2) Make moderated "Issue report" section with Solved/Unsolved marks.
3) publish more frequently bug fixing releases.
Thanks. Appreciate the suggestions.
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Studious
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:19:51
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No matter how well we articulate the one core issue, over and over, it's still being belittling by people defending the wrong issue!!
We are not asking about what is going on in the lab, X3 features, what special plans Cakewalk has, what is "next" for Sonar, etc.
We are adults. We understand certain things are private business. They can take all the time they want, in private, to work on new goodies. The issue is with the product in hand, and the fact that the company we bought it from has not said a word about its CURRENT STATUS since 2012.
A maintenance update, or its potential to exist in the future, should not be classified information. If you believe otherwise, then we fundamentally differ on this subject.
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:20:26
(permalink)
ekral
The SW industry has changed a lot. Ryan, if you are working on bug fixes, where are the bug fixing releases? I think that lot of people just expected something like this:
REAPER Pre-Release Discussion
Reaper Issue Tracker
or this:
Cubase 7 Issues
We have an very in depth bug tracking system internally where our Product Managers and Developers can prioritize such things. It's actually quite cool and very efficient. We have a mechanism on our site for users to report such issues to us as well. We'll confirm if it's a legitimate bug or not and notify end users of the facts. I'm sure most of you are aware of it. It's here: http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspx After that, we migrate things into our internal system. The forum has never been a place for us to track bugs. Quite frankly, we'd never get anything done. From the inside looking out, it's the most unorganized solution to it possible. No offense, but bug tracking is supposed to be based purely on facts and as clear and concise as possible, not based on long conversations on discussions boards. It's very difficult to support people on user forums, there's a lot of inaccurate information and people who tend to side rail the conversation. I truly feel for the folks at Steinberg and Cockos having to maintain those lists. Personally, I prefer to focus on the bugs versus maintaining the lists. If you guys encounter problems, definitely let us know, but let us handle the annoying part of bug tracking and fixing things. That's on us. When we do fix bugs and the fixes are available in updates/new versions/whatever... we always go through the lists and notify customers of the change. With that being said, I do think the internet has changed a lot and that there are good ways of improving upon this. I just don't necessarily think it's discussion board based. I'll have to toy around with some of those ideas though as they all involve updating the Problem Reporter (which is always in need of some updating ;) As you can tell, we have to prioritize certain things. The forum software was one of the big things on my particular list. brconflict
Ryan,
Thanks for chiming in. Always appreciated to at least see someone address concerns such as these. I do have a few questions/comments, though, and hopefully won't ostracize myself from credibility I might have as a CW customer:
You mentioned that you're very aware of issues and that this forum is not to be used for direct support. I would beg that if you peruse Steinberg's forums, you'll see, not only are they very well laid out, but it's frequent that engineers or support staff will go through the forums and make suggestions that seems to be helpful, or at least say something like, "I'll take a look at that. Can you try [this] and tell me what happens?", or "That's a known bug in version x.x.x." It may not be as efficient as what Cakewalk does, but I really love their way (I own Wavelab for Mastering, so I'm there frequently).
It's ok if Cakewalk is stern about how they should be contacted regarding bugs, support calls, etc, but would Cakewalk either consider 24/7 support, or rethink working with us in the forums? Not all of us do this for a living, and we have daytime jobs, too. Many studios operate late night and on weekends. I'd pay for support to get those hours like I do with Waves, but it's not even an option here.
When reporting bugs, when/if there's any movement, I don't see it for at least 1-2 month(s). Any time I get a response, it's for an issue I reported, but I couldn't remember for what half the time because of the length of time in silence.
My sincere apologies for being so blunt, but Cakewalk doesn't seem to get the picture, from my perspective.
Thanks!
We try to hop in when we can to the forum, but honestly we just get extremely busy at some points in time. It's not an excuse, just the honest answer. I know we do have spurts where we're in here a lot, and other times where we're not. I'd like to improve that relationship as well. We did at one point in time offer 24/7 paid support (I'm definitely not doing it for free ;). Unfortunately it was incredibly unsuccessful. Nobody wanted to pay. We ran it for months and only sold a few cases. I'm not saying I'm opposed to reconsidering this effort at some point in the future, but one thing was for certain, it didn't work out well the last time we took a stab at it.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:23:08
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☄ Helpfulby Grem 2013/07/01 16:19:11
I don't see a lot of users jumping ship over to Cubase 7, and I also don't see cake losing customers.
matter of fact I see the same people on this forum usually on a daily basis.
what I do see is about 20-30 people with the same old story, someone starts a "cakewalk doesn't care thread"
and those same 20-30 users lick their chops and type away like its their life's calling.
patting each other on the back and sharing the in the pain.
while others here move upon their daily routine's using x2 successfully.
that's not to say there's not some of those 20-30 users who I believe to have real problems and who are actually very good people.
and want a patch to make their life's easier and there's nothing wrong that at all, I don't find that annoying.
what I do find annoying though is everyday a new post about x2, where's the patch?
but hey, your entitled to your opinions but there is such a thing as beating a dead horse in to submission.
im sure you all know how I feel on the matter, I wouldn't mind a patch myself, I find some things really annoying too.
but not so annoying to start a new post every day, when there's one already still active.
I don't think cake is going to give me an answer because I stomp my feet day after day.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:27:46
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
It's not realistic to expect us to communicate about product plans, road maps, or business plans. I understand the frustration but don't take the silence as a sign of something bad. FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade. It's nothing new. We are all hard at work and when we have something we can discuss, we'll definitely communicate that to our customers via our website, emails, and forums.
I do want to stress that anyone having serious issues should always contact Cakewalk support directly. We are happy to help out and often times a quick call can resolve an issue.
Andrew, Many already have reported issues and there is STILL NO X2b update mentioned or available for download. Come out with a statement about that and I can be swayed. With that said, I know a lot of the older users who I have communicated with for many years are now switching to Cubase and Studio one. Since I do not use X2, I am seriously thinking about trying the other guys out. I still have 8.5 which works flawlessly though, so I am not in hurry to crossgrade. I would like to use what I paid for as a loyal Cakewalk supporter and user, but I don't know how long that will last.
Peace, Conley Shepherd Joyful Noise Productions PC config: (Win performance base score = 7.7) ASUS Sabertooth 990 FX -amd fx-8150 - core processor am3+ - 32G Corsair 1066 DDR3 - PNY GTX670 2g gddr5 - Corsair Force SSD 120G - Samsung 750G SATA drives - WD 1tb Black (Audio files) - WD 2TB for storage - RME UFX - USB ASIO 2/2016 drivers Win8  Without a mess, there is no message
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Very Bad Feeling about Cakewalk.
2013/07/01 14:28:02
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☄ Helpfulby Grem 2013/07/01 16:20:38
Studious
No matter how well we articulate the one core issue, over and over, it's still being belittling by people defending the wrong issue!!
We are not asking about what is going on in the lab, X3 features, what special plans Cakewalk has, what is "next" for Sonar, etc.
We are adults. We understand certain things are private business. They can take all the time they want, in private, to work on new goodies. The issue is with the product in hand, and the fact that the company we bought it from has not said a word about its CURRENT STATUS since 2012.
A maintenance update, or its potential to exist in the future, should not be classified information. If you believe otherwise, then we fundamentally differ on this subject.
The issue is clear to me. You want to know when X2b is coming out. Right now, we don't have any information to announce. We have been collecting information and when we have news, we will definitely let you know. I know this may seem frustrating but I would rather tell you facts than plans or ideas.
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