Helpful ReplyThe LANDR Thread

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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 16:33:19 (permalink)
Good info, Grem. Thanks.
 
Seems to me if there were any kind of user input component to their algorithms anyone who wanted to game it would have to at the very least be paying customers (which would be prohibitively expensive to do just for "teh lulz").
 
The human reach out from the company to advise on how to provide more suitable source material to feed the service is interesting though. Hard to interpret what's going on there.
 
Like is there a crew of folks sitting there watching these tracks come through the system then flagging/listening to/analysing specific items then replying back to the user with recommendations?
 
Not asking you specifically. Just contemplating what that's all about. I think I'd be a little shy about bouncing my cruddy/weirdo random experiments off them if an actual human might be on the other side actually listening to them. HA!
 
Of course real mastering engineers would do exactly that and interact with the mix engineer/artist so definitely... that's interesting and I guess... cool? Creepy? Purple?
 
Cheers.
SvenArne
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 16:58:24 (permalink)
I hafta say I was super skeptical when Landr came upon the stage last year or two years ago or whenever it was. But I was i kind of. sort of, intrigued when CDbaby started pushing it. When it was promoted in the Newburyport update, I was persuaded to actually try it because, believe it or not, I put a lot of trust in Cakewalk and their choice in third-party collaborators...





tenfoot
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:08:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/02/27 17:53:33
I jumped right in and installed the new update,  as I do every month,  before I knew anything of the dreaded presence of Landr. Although like many of us I was a little surprised and unhappy to find it there,  I have now been working in the studio all day and half the night,  all the while successfully ignoring it completely.  Shockingly,  there have been no ill effects whatsoever.
 
Methinks we all worry too much about too little. Perhaps we should smile more:) 

Bruce.
 
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bapu
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:18:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2016/02/27 18:57:39
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
There are many people I know who are top notch musicians but rarely frequent a user forum let alone post. 



Thank God. We luddites would just want to drool all over them.
Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:30:00 (permalink)
tenfoot
I jumped right in and installed the new update,  as I do every month,  before I knew anything of the dreaded presence of Landr. Although like many of us I was a little surprised and unhappy to find it there,  I have now been working in the studio all day and half the night,  all the while successfully ignoring it completely.  Shockingly,  there have been no ill effects whatsoever.
 
Methinks we all worry too much about too little. Perhaps we should smile more:) 




Sure, but...
 
It needs to be removed from the main installer.
 
The way it was snuck in was not cool.
 
I wish I could smile more but that seems to invite a kick in the teeth when you ain't lookin' from the most unlikely of boots.
 
Once Cake removes it from the main installer I'll consider contemplating maybe a cautious glimmer of a grin.
 
I do not promise teeth will be exposed in said grin.
 
I have faith Cake will do the right thing in the end.
tenfoot
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:35:13 (permalink)
Beepster
tenfoot
I jumped right in and installed the new update,  as I do every month,  before I knew anything of the dreaded presence of Landr. Although like many of us I was a little surprised and unhappy to find it there,  I have now been working in the studio all day and half the night,  all the while successfully ignoring it completely.  Shockingly,  there have been no ill effects whatsoever.
 
Methinks we all worry too much about too little. Perhaps we should smile more:) 




Sure, but...
 
It needs to be removed from the main installer.
 
The way it was snuck in was not cool.
 
I wish I could smile more but that seems to invite a kick in the teeth when you ain't lookin' from the most unlikely of boots.
 
Once Cake removes it from the main installer I'll consider contemplating maybe a cautious glimmer of a grin.
 
I do not promise teeth will be exposed in said grin.
 
I have faith Cake will do the right thing in the end.


Haha -  fair enough beeps. Some cautious celebration some time soon then!  Cakewalk certainly do have a history of doing the right thing. 

Bruce.
 
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Grem
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:45:37 (permalink)
bapu
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
There are many people I know who are top notch musicians but rarely frequent a user forum let alone post. 



Thank God. We luddites would just want to drool all over them.




Busted a gut on that one!!

Grem

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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 17:53:37 (permalink)
I also resent the sentiment that people who frequent forums (and most specifically this forum) are somehow less able or likely to make rational decisions or observations about the products they use.
 
That would have been less insulting if I hadn't seen that sentiment expressed here before... and usually when defending something that is at best a "murky" position and at worst entirely indefensible.
 
I would counter such assertions that those who completely ignore the forum(s) do not necessarily have all the facts at their disposal.
 
It comes across like a cop out when things get a little rough.
 
I love ya, lads and I certainly don't envy you having to suffer the trolls and irrational malcontents (we don't like them either) but this place is of course a massive font of extremely cost effective market research and likely redirects MOUNTAINS of support queries away from your own servers/phone lines.
 
If you called us spazzes and weirdos... that I would accept. Not worth listening to? Nuh uh.
 
Sorry... that one bugged me when it was posted (and does every time) but I ignored it. Since it was brought up again... well there ya go.
 
I will now go be spazzy and weird somewhere else.
 
;-)
John T
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 18:07:50 (permalink)
Beepster
I also resent the sentiment that people who frequent forums (and most specifically this forum) are somehow less able or likely to make rational decisions or observations about the products they use.
 

I don't think anyone's saying that.

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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 18:40:45 (permalink)
John T
Beepster
I also resent the sentiment that people who frequent forums (and most specifically this forum) are somehow less able or likely to make rational decisions or observations about the products they use.
 

I don't think anyone's saying that.




That's pretty much what was being said/implied. I'd find the direct quotes but apparently Firefox decided to crash and munch almost a couple dozen open tabs so now I've got to manually find everything I had open.
 
And it's really not worth getting into an argument over because it was likely said out of frustration due to the actual trolls. It is some pretty broad brush stuff though and I found it irksome.
 
Now off to hunt down all the crap I was previously looking at. Ugh.
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 19:11:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chilldanny 2016/02/27 20:13:16
If you were referring to my post the point I was making was in direct response to Craig's post, that we need to support the many users of our products who might be very experienced in other ways but not very technical with DAW's. Not sure why you drew the conclusion that people on forums were any less.
 
Also your assertion that Cakewalk did something "sneaky" by including the Landr installer was refuted and explained extremely clearly, yet you keep reposting your same argument. I will explain it once again for the record:
 
 
The download was a conscious decision made for technical and usability reasons in order to integrate Landr without requiring a secondary install. This is to avoid a poor user experience for users who WANT to use Landr. Our TS records show that users get confused when they have to do multiple installs to use a feature. We do so the same for Soundcloud and other external encoders such as YouTube publisher. Also the Landr installer is ONLY 50MB and can be either skipped or uninstalled via add-remove programs in Windows. It doesn't add any overhead to the system having it installed.
 
You reported that our installer size is 100MB larger - if so its probably some other reason and we will look into that. If there is a better install mechanism that doesn't involve a large amount of development resources on both Cakewalk and Landr's side we will consider an alternate approach. Please lets stop this circular discussion now since the facts have been stated multiple times. 
 
 
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2016/02/27 19:27:53

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Andrew Rossa
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 19:35:46 (permalink)
Beepster
tenfoot
I jumped right in and installed the new update,  as I do every month,  before I knew anything of the dreaded presence of Landr. Although like many of us I was a little surprised and unhappy to find it there,  I have now been working in the studio all day and half the night,  all the while successfully ignoring it completely.  Shockingly,  there have been no ill effects whatsoever.
 
Methinks we all worry too much about too little. Perhaps we should smile more:) 




Sure, but...
 
It needs to be removed from the main installer.
 
The way it was snuck in was not cool.
 
I wish I could smile more but that seems to invite a kick in the teeth when you ain't lookin' from the most unlikely of boots.
 
Once Cake removes it from the main installer I'll consider contemplating maybe a cautious glimmer of a grin.
 
I do not promise teeth will be exposed in said grin.
 
I have faith Cake will do the right thing in the end.





Hi Beepster,
 
We clearly understand your point. We listen to all feedback and we understand your point of view. There's no further need to clarify any points since we understand it clearly :)
 
Thanks.
Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 19:46:45 (permalink)
Yup. Thanks, Andrew. It just came up in the flow of conversation again.
 
I will also apologize to Noel because I actually slightly mischaracterized his statement and was in the process of correcting that when he posted. It's obviously much more nuanced than that and not as nasty as all that but still irksome. I just widdled it down far too much and don't feel like dragging it out.
 
Breif corrections...
 
I did NOT come up with or report the 100MB nor did I confirm that/claim it was fact. That was other users and I specualting about reported discrepancies.
 
I DID read and respond to the intial explanation. That can be viewed upthread. I won't drag that out again.
 
I am quite happy this is being reviewed and have been since I was informed of it. I just got pulled in by the topic again.
 
Cheers and again thank you for looking into it.
SteveStrummerUK
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 20:08:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chilldanny 2016/02/27 20:51:35
 
 
Alex would know what to say.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I miss Alex...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
There, I said it

 Music:     The Coffee House BandVeRy MeTaL

jb101
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/27 21:23:49 (permalink)
Don't worry, Steve, he is back again, with yet another alternate login.

He'll pop in here soon, no doubt.

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artturner
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 02:15:18 (permalink)
Since this thread was a little long on opinions (mine included) and short on examples, I thought I would contribute.
 
This is an acoustic instrumental, the title was a happy accident, I really had no intention of doing this when I started this song today.
 
Here is the unprocessed audio, reverb only.
https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/what-are-my-choices-now-unprocessed
 
Here is the original after I had done what I could to it:
https://soundcloud.com/ar...y-choices-now-original
iZotope Alloy 2 on drums, Vintage Scooped Drums preset
iZotope Ozone 6 on master, Warm and Transparent preset
REmatrix on a reverb bus, Modern Feel preset
 
Here is what LANDR did with the *unprocessed* file (again on medium)
https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/what-are-my-choices-now-landr-medium-on-unprocessed-file
 
Here is what LANDR did with the file that had my iZotope presets:
https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/what-are-my-choices-now-landr-medium
 
I kind of like the "pop" and clarity of the LANDR version. Can any of you true mastering gurus tell me what LANDR did to achieve this?
 
Thanks!
post edited by artturner - 2016/02/28 11:36:57

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jpetersen
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 06:38:05 (permalink)
Fantastic material!
Is the first one what you sent to LandR?
Or did you send a totally unprocessed one?
 
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/28 06:52:32
artturner
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 10:49:02 (permalink)
jpetersen
Fantastic material!
Is the first one what you sent to LandR?
Or did you send a totally unprocessed one?
 


Thanks,
I sent the first one (with my processing) to LANDR.
 
What I wanted to find out is that if I had a track where I thought I wanted it, would LANDR be able to improve it, wreck it, or do nothing at all?
 
I suppose it would be a better test if I sent an unprocessed one too. Will try to do that shortly.

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Andrew Rossa
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 11:10:11 (permalink)
I love hearing songs made in SONAR from our users. Good stuff!
jpetersen
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 11:10:36 (permalink)
OK. In the meantime, I've been having a lot of fun with your two sound files.
 
First I reduced the volume of the LANDR one so both sound equally loud.
 
Then I flipped through the presets supplied with Ozone 5. Most are too heavy-handed, but I found one that is not too far off and started to investigate. The EQ is scooped at around 500Hz with curves that look similar to that of the BBE Sonic Maximizer. However, when the violin becomes dominant, it keeps it's mid-frequency character. Interesting.
 
One thing I'm finding when just applying presets is, liking one and taking it as a starting point is very much a matter of taste. Which one is "better"? Hard to say. Craig Anderton likes vocals, so he focuses on that. But unless there are flaws in the sense of Craig's "Public Service" video, whereby there are nasty resonances to find and eliminate, it's not really possible to find out how clever LANDR really is. Your recordings don't have such flaws (well - I have only done 3 albums, so what do I know?).
 
I have to work so I've left it for now, but will continue. It's keeping me fascinated.
 
But so far, a BBE-like effect centered at 500Hz.
Thanks!!! Educational stuff.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/02/28 11:30:20
jamesg1213
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 11:18:40 (permalink)
artturner
Since this thread was a little long on opinions (mine included) and short on examples, I thought I would contribute.
 
This is an acoustic instrumental, the title was a happy accident, I really had no intention of doing this when I started this song today.
 
Here is the original after I had done what I could to it:
https://soundcloud.com/ar...y-choices-now-original
iZotope Alloy 2 on drums, Vintage Scooped Drums preset
iZotope Ozone 6 on master, Warm and Transparent preset
REmatrix on a reverb bus, Modern Feel preset
 
I fed LANDR the resulting master and here is what LANDR did with it on medium:
https://soundcloud.com/artturnermusic/what-are-my-choices-now-landr-medium
 
I kind of like the "pop" and clarity of the LANDR version. Can any of you true mastering gurus tell me what LANDR did to achieve this?
 
Thanks!




That's a lovely piece. Really like that violin sound. The LANDR version seemed to give more emphasis to the kick, but softened the whole first section down (in a good way).
 
Be nice to hear more users posting here;
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Songs-f89.aspx
 
post edited by jamesg1213 - 2016/02/28 11:33:29

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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artturner
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 11:26:31 (permalink)
I edited my post above to add the unprocessed file and the LANDR results on the unprocessed file.
 
To Andrew: Thank you!
To James: Thank you also. I have really enjoyed the violin since it's release a few months ago. I find myself thinking up ways to use it.

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mettelus
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 11:32:22 (permalink)
jpetersen
OK. In the meantime, I've been having a lot of fun with your two sound files.
 
First I reduced the volume of the LANDR one so both sound equally loud.
 
Then I flipped through the presets supplied with Ozone 5. Most are too heavy-handed, but I found one that is not too far off and started to investigate. The EQ is scooped at around 500Hz with curves that look similar to that of the BBE Sonic Maximizer. However, when the violin becomes dominant, it keeps it's mid-frequency character. Interesting.
 
One thing I'm finding when just applying presets is, liking one and taking it as a starting point is very much a matter of taste. Which one is "better"? Hard to say. Craig Anderton likes vocals, so he focuses on that. But unless there are flaws in the sense of Craig's "Public Service" video, whereby there are nasty resonances to find and eliminate, it's not really possible to find out how clever LANDR really is. Your recordings don't have such flaws (well - I have only done 3 albums, so what do I know?).
 
I have to work so I've left it for now, but will continue. It's keeping me fascinated.
 
But so far, a BBE-like effect centered at 500Hz.
Thanks!!! Educational stuff.




Out of curiosity, as you were playing with the Ozone 5 presets, did you happen to right click on the spectral display at the top of the Harmonic Exciter, Dynamics, or Stereo Imager and choose "learn" (is at the bottom of the list there)?
post edited by mettelus - 2016/02/28 11:49:39

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yorolpal
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 13:38:47 (permalink)
I'm sure Landr can be very useful to a narrowly defined demographic. And I have nothing against either them or Cake for including it...although it really is like someone giving you a puppy...before long you'll be headed to Petsmart and the vet and pulling out your wallet. But I was a bit surprised that the audio demo on Landr's own site sounded...at least to my tired ol ears...so much worse than the original track.

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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 13:50:30 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
If you were referring to my post the point I was making was in direct response to Craig's post, that we need to support the many users of our products who might be very experienced in other ways but not very technical with DAW's. Not sure why you drew the conclusion that people on forums were any less.
 
 




Hi Noel.....:)
 
I have to say I read your post in the same way as Beep, it came across wrong.
 
Just sayin'

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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 16:10:28 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK
 
 
Alex would know what to say. 
 
I miss Alex...
 




Is Alex gone? Did he leave or.....?

Grem

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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 16:11:38 (permalink)
Art, that was nice. Thank you for sharing. Your song has been stuck in my head all day now. :-)

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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 18:24:08 (permalink)
Grem
SteveStrummerUK
 
 
Alex would know what to say. 
 
I miss Alex...
 




Is Alex gone? Did he leave or.....?




Poor old Alex was 'pushed' or it may be closer to the truth that he was 'silenced' Everyone knows Alex or Doktor Avalanche was quite opinionated, and wasn't backward in coming forward about Cakewalks or Sonars problems and shortcomings, also keeping a list of all the reported and neglected bugs with Sonar and Cakewalks instruments. I believe Alex always spoke the truth, or at least the truth as far as he knew it to be and I think that was a bit to much for some people here, especially those in authority who would rather Cakewalks and Sonars shortcomings not be pointed out so publicly and continuously, you know how it is, everything is honky dory in Cakewalk land and most don't want to know about Cakewalks or Sonars shortcomings and issues even if it is the truth, best just not talk about it and continue on in ignorant bliss, well dear old Alex didn't roll like that and made a comment during a discourse with Anderton and or Cake employees something along the lines of "look just ban me" and well a short time latter that is exactly what one Cakewalk employee did, with a comment like "well I will agree to your wishes" I guess seizing the opportunity to silence Alex. Yes Alex could be annoying, but he didn't really do anything wrong, unless you count pointing out Cakewalks and Sonars issues and deficiencies, which of course aren't welcome here, so they seized the day and silenced him. Something everyone should learn from, keep up the illusion, keep everything smelling like roses and everyone will like you and you will be fine, start bringing attention to the issues and deficiencies, keeping track of neglected long standing bugs and well you may share the same fate as dear old Alex.

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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 18:26:33 (permalink)
Chiming in to say that I tried LandR today and I think I'm going to learn quite a bit from it. There was more clarity on their version in the mid-highs than I've been achieving. That made a really positive difference, so I'm going to start by concentrating on improving my mixes and "masters" (ha-ha) in that area.
I already know I'm clueless about mastering and pretty useless at mixing too ... but I'm not going to let that stop me from trying :).
And that's the report from the peanut gallery for today.
 
Editing to add: Uh-oh. Seems like I picked a fine time to post.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by skinnybones lampshade - 2016/02/28 18:43:59
artturner
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Re: The LANDR Thread 2016/02/28 18:27:35 (permalink)
maximumpower
Art, that was nice. Thank you for sharing. Your song has been stuck in my head all day now. :-)


Thanks! Shameless marketing in the guise of a helpful mastering post. :)

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