scook

jpetersen
Is Sonar Platinum not going to be a pro tool anymore, then?

It is a pro tool in the hands of a pro otherwise, it is just a tool.

jpetersen

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
That's not accurate - Landr uses Machine learning. If you look at the theory, machine learning is as accurate as the DATA its given rather than as intelligent as the programmer....our Vocal sync feature was designed using machine learning to understand how to analyze and extract data from a huge subset of vocals samples.

In the Vocal sync case I can see the mechanism behind analyzing many vocal examples to find out common characteristics in these files.
 
But with LANDR, what is it learning? Who is giving it feedback to say, "That sounds better, what you did this time is right"?
 
It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out all it does is figure out genre based on tempo, harmonic density, etc. and then applies a preset, possibly even on a commercially available mastering tool.

cparmerlee

jpetersen
But with LANDR, what is it learning? Who is giving it feedback to say, "That sounds better, what you did this time is right"?

PRECISELY.  I have some knowledge of AI systems with missile guidance.  In a system like that, instruments are able to measure the target,  They can provide instant feedback as to whether the "AI" maneuvers are helping to reach the target or working against that objective.  Over time, such a system can "learn" what maneuvers under what circumstances are likely to be most productive.
 
There is no such feedback loop in this mastering thing.

jpetersen
It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out all it does is figure out genre based on tempo, harmonic density, etc. and then applies a preset, possibly even on a commercially available mastering tool.

 
Once again, PRECISELY on the mark.  I question whether there is even any real "AI engine" involved in the process.  It does seem to be a case of software analyzing the sound file and selecting a preset that fits a profile.  It is not computer learning without that feedback loop.  At best, one might stretch to call it an "expert system" because presumably there are some mastering experts involved to help fit different sound patterns to different presets.
 
If done well, that could be useful, but the examples I have seen so far don't seem to do much more than compressing and jacking up the dB level.  I think a person could get pretty much the same results simply by adding a multi-band compressor and the Concrete Limiter to the master bus in their mix.

artturner
We pay for rolling updates and look forward to what will be fixed next, then discover that the bakers have used their time to produce updates that few people seemed to need. They then spend time explaining why this is what we should have wanted all along.

Anderton

tenfoot

Anderton
 
I'm not a big fan of presets, here's why. 

So you truly believe that landr is that different to a preset in a mastering plugin Craig? I have given it a spin and to me the results were pretty similar. Like any mastering plugin preset,  it certainly works better on some tracks than it does on others,  and the end result is sometimes better but never brilliant.  Surely your 'works by coincidence' assertion could apply equally to it? 

Yes and no. First, the "no" part. I'm quite sure it does more than a preset because on the examples I've heard, it has identified build-ups that need to be tamed, and these have been in different frequency ranges. I commonly need to add shallow cuts at various places in songs when mastering, but they're not always in the same frequency range. LANDR seems capable of identifying where those kinds of issues are, and dealing with them.
 
Similarly, it seems to know how much brightness to add. Noel's cut needed more high end, and LANDR added it. OTOH when I fed in a song that I'd mastered to see if I could fool it and LANDR did essentially nothing at all, it must have "decided" that the spectral balance was correct.
 
I don't know about the extent of "artificial intelligence" in the program, but it clearly makes decisions based on contextual analysis. Presets can't do that.
 
Now for the "yes" part - it's not a human, so I doubt that it can (at least not yet) make "out of the box," or perhaps more correctly, "out of the algorithm" decisions. LANDR claims the engine will learn over time, so this may become less of an issue in the future. I also think this may be why LANDR has emphasized offering free previews, because it's not good to have disappointed customers . Some music will be a better fit with the system and some won't, so with the previews, people will know whether what they've submitted is a good fit or not.

Beepster

bapu
Beeps,
 
For the way you work, you actually get what you want.
 
You don't use CCC (IIRC) and you download the installer from your store account.
 
When you run that installer you have the verbose option. 
 
In the verbose option DO NOT check LANDR.
 
Simples.
 
Beeps stays with Cakewalk. YAY!!!!
 

Indeed and I know that because I've been paying attention and scour this forum daily. HOWEVER the app still gets downloaded (every month) and has to be unpacked (every month... and I don't know what that might release onto the system) and has to be installed using the advance install option (every month... whereas before I could just safely intall the main SPlat package without advance install... even though I do anyway but have never had to uncheck anything).
 
As mentioned earlier there is also some kind of log made if the LANDR app was rejected and that file is still on the system. It should also be noted I keep backups of the dowloads (I'm an offline installer) for various reasons. The extra monthly data adds up which has been described as up to 100MB but Noel is now claiming it's 50MB... urm.. whut?.
 
and so forth...
 
So for me, who's been paying attention to this issue (as I'm sure you have as well), I know how to kind of sort of avoid it. Other poor buggers will get zapped by it (and already have which is what brought this to my attention). I feel a bit of duty to my fellow Sonarites to point out the things that are (potentially) truly problematic.
 
No matter what I do though I still cannot completely avoid that extra 50-100MB worth of data being downloaded and added to my installer backup folder (so I can rollback or reinstall as needed since I don't use CCC). I don't know what is unpacked from the LANDR app as soon as I start the install process (but as reported something gets logged even if the app isn't installed and the way this has gone down I have very little trust other weirdness may not be going on) and if I forget about the app or screwup my install I'll have to do a full restore to a previous state to start over again.
 
So at the very best it is extra download time, disk space used and the inconvenience of doing an advanced install and unchecking the LANDR option every month.
 
All for absolutely no real benefit.
 
If there was much more information on all of this then maybe these concerns could be quelled but it's all being done in such a way that I personally do not trust it. If I knew exactly what was doing what, when, why, how, etc then I might be cooed into complacency or at least feel that I wasn't having a fast one pulled on me.
 
I am however much more concerned about the precedence this is setting for the company. If we let this type of thing get snuck in without saying anything where does it end? Are gonna end up with little dancing widgets and billboards scrolling across our projects unless we do some magic voodoo dance every time we update?
 
Now THAT'S unprofessional and I put up with enough of it with other programs and doodads.
 
Whatevs... you know what I mean (hopefully).
 
I am everyman. Hear me whine. lol

bapu
Beeps,
 
(somewhat) Tongue in cheek.