Anderton
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 21:40:41
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Psychobillybob
Probably a huge difference in the way we work, I am tracking WITH clients in the studio, they sit with me IN the control room, an actual room filled with analog gear...we can hear "dynamics" immediately anytime we want...if you are dealing with folks in a virtual studio, then by all means use virtual tools.
I deal with all kinds of people, from award-winners to up and coming artists, from mixes made from 2" 24-track analog to Apple Logic. I love mastering a wide variety of material, it keeps me fresh and interested. But, no - I rarely track or do mix engineering because frankly I'm too expensive, so most of those projects involve classical music from labels with decent budgets. I receive two-tracks, often from people who weren't satisfied with the results from working with previous "professional" mastering engineers. I believe part of that is because those engineers didn't work with the client and give them the attention they deserved. Those recordings are people's dreams, they're not just a gig. Your way of working with the client is to mix and track with them, which is great. My way is to have a lot of back and forth regarding what they want to accomplish with the music they've already recorded. I see LANDR as providing a component in that back and forth. And yes, most people are clueless about mastering. I do not hold that against them or diminish them because of that. Mastering is not their gig, it's mine. I love nothing better than a superbly crafted song with a decent mix that I can bring to its full potential.
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Dreamstation
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 21:45:50
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stxxIf I send 8 songs from a project there, they comes back sounding like they belong together. I'm very interested in this point. I'm sure everyone has noticed that the word "mastering" in the modern day, and in the context of Landr, is now quite different to what it used to be. It now seems to mean simply making something louder so it can compete with other commercial tracks, by homogenising and standardising it's level and frequency content and distribution. One aspect of mastering used to relate to putting an album of songs together so that they would work as a sonically consistent body of work. A ballad following an uptempo rock track would be "mastered" differently so they could play consecutively on the album without it being jarring or unnatural. So what I want to know, and maybe stxx can confirm based on his experience (quoted above) - does Landr "master" a collection of tracks with this in mind - or is it simply a one-song-at-a-time enloudner?
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Anderton
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 22:01:09
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Dreamstation
So what I want to know, and maybe stxx can confirm based on his experience (quoted above) - does Landr "master" a collection of tracks with this in mind - or is it simply a one-song-at-a-time enloudner?
Thank you for bringing this up. Mastering an album is an entirely different skill set, but the variability is huge. THIS is what many people don't understand about the mastering engineer being the last step in the creative process, not just the technical process. For example in doing albums I almost never use the default 2 seconds between cuts specified by the Red Book standard. I ask that clients provide individual songs without fades. I suggest changes in song orders, and even cut sections of songs. I suggest crossfades and transitions. In one recent project I asked the artist to cut a new section to transition between two songs. He loved it. It's not always that way; some artists know exactly what they want, know the running order, have the balances set right, etc. etc. But others are very open to creative input, while others expect it because they're burned out after listening to something for months or years and they want an objective viewpoint. As far as I know there is no one-size-fit-all mastering solution for all use cases, but there are definitely some solutions that work for most of the people, most of the time.
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jeff oliver
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 22:01:31
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I love music. I HATE the "industry" of music. And that's what we're really dealing with. I respect everyone on this forum and I do mean everyone. Please, respect what I'm about to say even if you disagree. Cool? Lets be honest. This service is not needed in the least bit. If clients knew half of what's being said here they'd be engineers. One of the most simple thing to do is to give a client a semi-mastered track. You just want it not to sound too weak when they play it. It's called a "rough mix" for a reason. Or "rough master" :)
I believe some professionals here (not me) feel insulted that their DAW of choice has gone this route. Yeah, kinda tongue in cheek. I'm curious if all this debate will change anything.
And I admit I don't like it. It's like sticking a bumper sticker on a Porsche. Even if all the other companies go this route. All the more reason to stay out of it. But I KNOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.
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Anderton
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 22:17:13
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jpetersen
Then set up a genre-appropriate preset, process and return to sender.
I'm not a big fan of presets, here's why.
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Dreamstation
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 23:26:35
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Incidentally, the Landr blog has a recent post about DAWs where they list-out 12 of "the best" and its nice to see that Sonar isn't included down the bottom somewhere as an "also-ran". However, they are referring to X3 rather than the latest iteration, which I guess is a little disappointing given this newly announced association.
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tenfoot
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/25 23:47:38
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Anderton
I'm not a big fan of presets, here's why.
So you truly believe that landr is that different to a preset in a mastering plugin Craig? I have given it a spin and to me the results were pretty similar. Like any mastering plugin preset, it certainly works better on some tracks than it does on others, and the end result is sometimes better but never brilliant. Surely your 'works by coincidence' assertion could apply equally to it? I personally could not care less that the installer was included with the main installation package. I have no use for it, but as long as it does not affect stability I can easily ignore it. That said, what I find as perplexing as peoples fickle outrage at its inclusion though is Cakewalk heavyweights so tenaciously defending a third party consumer oriented cloud service utility that many of it's customers seem none too thrilled with having shown up on their computer like a U2 album on an ipod.
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bentleyousley
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 00:33:01
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Leee
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 01:07:15
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I'm curious and a bit concerned about one point that's been raised (several times).
A few people were insisting that LANDR be removed from the latest update, and only be available as an option, separate from the main Newburyport update.
Other than the additional time it takes to download the update, why are people so adamant about not including it with the Newburyport update?
It's my understanding that this is just a plugin/separate program, when you go to export audio from your Sonar project, LANDR is just one of many options to choose when exporting the audio, and that LANDR doesn't even become active unless you choose that option. Is LANDR running in the background as soon as you open Sonar? Is it creating an open Internet connection before you even choose to use it?
So, I just don't get why it's so important to some of the commenters that LANDR be not included in the Newburyport update? If it adds a couple of minutes to the overall download time of the latest update, what's the big deal?
Or am I missing something?
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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mettelus
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 01:31:29
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Leee
Other than the additional time it takes to download the update, why are people so adamant about not including it with the Newburyport update?
Unless this is changed, it will also be included in each update going forward as well (each update is a self-contained version, enabling rollback, but also growing at a rapid rate). The internal linkages to SONAR are part of the main SONAR program, but packaging LANDR's program is not anything CW even coded. Who knows, next month we could get Google Desktop "to help you manage your files better," then Adobe Acrobat "to ensure you can read the pdf help file," etc. Bottom line, LANDR's software is no different, if people want it they can go download it on their own.
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Snehankur
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 01:38:56
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Leee
I'm curious and a bit concerned about one point that's been raised (several times).
A few people were insisting that LANDR be removed from the latest update, and only be available as an option, separate from the main Newburyport update.
Other than the additional time it takes to download the update, why are people so adamant about not including it with the Newburyport update?
It's my understanding that this is just a plugin/separate program, when you go to export audio from your Sonar project, LANDR is just one of many options to choose when exporting the audio, and that LANDR doesn't even become active unless you choose that option. Is LANDR running in the background as soon as you open Sonar? Is it creating an open Internet connection before you even choose to use it?
So, I just don't get why it's so important to some of the commenters that LANDR be not included in the Newburyport update? If it adds a couple of minutes to the overall download time of the latest update, what's the big deal?
Or am I missing something?
Hi Lee, There are many views going on: LANDR usable / unusable, want LANDR/ don't want LANDR, Should be included/not to be included.... etc etc. So you are not missing anything:) Important points are: The user should get the provision to install it or not to install it. It can be included within SONAR PLAT but as a separate entity, a separate download. User should be able to uninstall it completely. The downloading time matters for some users with lower internet bandwidth. It is 18% (someone has calculated) more in the file size. Cakewalk never mentioned that it will be installed automatically and users will have no control on this not even uninstalling. Also this has to be noted that since it has been included within the main program - in normal course it will appear all future updates of SPLAT !! Very few opposing LANDR - because many of us don't use everything which provided. Be it Loops, FX Plugins, contents, but they are all provided as separate downloads. LANDR could have been given as a separate downloads like Melodyne Essential is. This is something what I have understood!! May be I am missing something :) Regards Snehankur
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Leee
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 02:36:19
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Snehankur
Very few opposing LANDR - because many of us don't use everything which provided. Be it Loops, FX Plugins, contents, but they are all provided as separate downloads. LANDR could have been given as a separate downloads like Melodyne Essential is.
This is something what I have understood!! May be I am missing something :)
Regards
Snehankur
Thanks Snehankur and Mettelus, Like you, and I'm sure many others, I don't use everything provided, like the loops and certain plugins, there's a lot of redundancy in what's available, especially if you have 3rd party plugins like Ozone. I also have Melodyne Studio, so I have no need for the Cakewalk provided "Essential". Yeah, I was just asking because the way some people were talking, I thought that LANDR might be running in the background as soon as you start Sonar, and I'm always cautious about ANY software that is sending/receiving data over the Internet without my knowledge. And after reading some of the other posts, I see I wasn't the only one that experienced very slow uploads to the LANDR website. By the time it took to finish the upload, I could have been half way through mastering the song via Ozone. But I see there is a new update for LANDR, and I'm willing to give it another try. My first experience using it was not that great, but I can see there is some potential there, in certain situations. But it definitely wouldn't be my "go to" mastering tool.
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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John T
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 03:27:40
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2016/02/26 12:12:30
I'm going to offer an edgy and controversial new spin on this: I don't care whether it's bundled or not.
It's time us indifferent people spoke out.
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Tom Riggs
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 04:52:10
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Leee
Other than the additional time it takes to download the update, why are people so adamant about not including it with the Newburyport update?
Well I did not insist anything however my preference would be to have it as a separate download. My connection is slow and often disconnects causing problems. Having smaller file sizes help with that situation. It would also make sense for it to be a separate download from the distribution point of view. For instance if Landr is not updated by the time next months release is ready then downloading it again is a waste of bandwidth and server load on Cakes servers. For me the jury is still out on its usefulness but I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
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MacFurse
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 06:16:09
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Anderton
My guess would be the 10,000,000 GoPro owners who want better audio, the 350,000 churches that record sermons, and every videographer who does weddings. (Never fear, mastering engineers - they weren't going to hire you anyway.)
If I can still do math at the end of the workday, if 1.8% of GoPro owners buy the cheapest available subscription, that makes back the seed money instantly, with a little left over for sushi dinners  . It's not hard to see how they could make back the investment in 5 years, probably less. It all depends whether they can break into the consumer market, and market their message effectively to it.
The next step after DAWs would be things liike TuneCore and CD Baby, then after that, the apps that ship with camcorders and such. Maybe even something like Vegas Movie Studio so video prosumers can beef up their soundtracks.
Craig, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have not heard you so passionately defend your position, time and time again before. I applaud your persistence, and once again, you've taught me things, or made me aware of them, just by hearing you speak. Thanks. It's been very clear to me right from the start what you thought the benefits of LANDR are, and I agree with you. It's great for it's intended use, which is NOT Master Engineering. But your post above, I believe, highlights why there is so much debate here. LANDR is NOT for SONAR users. A SONAR user with half a resolve, will mix their own client demos, straight from the DAW. I'm not talking about mastering here, just the demo's to get the clients opinion on where they want the song to go, to create the mix to suit. Then, it's either mastered in house, or given to them to take to their favourite master engineer. Most of us here probably use SONAR for everything. I will use a master engineer for my next album, because I don't know enough about it or have the right tools, and because I simply don't have the time to do everything anymore. I've proved I can do a half reasonable job, but it takes me too long to get it right. So while I believe you are right about it's potential, I believe we are the wrong market. DAWS should not be first on list for integration, camcorder and hand held recorders etc, should be. Big market there as you say. And it should have been an addition by choice. The whole CCC concept and installation paths etc, in my book, still falls a long way short of a pro approach, and this is yet another example. The talk from the people here who know much more than me about the residuals left in my system after deletion, and the potential for activations by unknown software, is a concern. I would not knowingly have accepted this additional software onto my DAW had I been given the option. I believe you when you say LANDR has potential benefits for some, but I don't believe those benefits are for most DAW users. As you say, you don't sit with clients and track or mix. So your benefit with LANDR is sending them off with their files to LANDR, have a listen, and report the results, so you can get on with mastering their dreams. That's a great use for sure. But it does not involve SONAR. Why would I output a file for upload, when I could use 3 FX chains on the master to basically do exactly the same thing. Better still, sit with the client while I do it and I can tweak the FX chains, get a result, and move on. I respect your position on this and your arguments, but I think the target audience is wrongly placed. Regards. Dave.
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pwalpwal
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 06:28:03
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John T
I'm going to offer an edgy and controversial new spin on this: I don't care whether it's bundled or not.
It's time us indifferent people spoke out.
what do we want? we don't know! when do we want it? meh
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 07:47:33
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pwalpwal
John T
I'm going to offer an edgy and controversial new spin on this: I don't care whether it's bundled or not.
It's time us indifferent people spoke out.
what do we want? we don't know! when do we want it? meh
You made me laugh, pwalpwal - thanks! I'm still interested in whether anyone here knows how Waves (fairly new) MixCentric by Greg Wells would compare to Landr. I ask because I've been considering splurging on the Greg Wells signature bundle (MixCentric, VoiceCentric and PianoCentric), but if Landr is essentially the same as MixCentric, I'd change my mind. Thanks for any info and thanks for the laugh! P.S. I already know that MixCentric doesn't include a limiter.
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jpetersen
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 07:58:26
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Leee
Other than the additional time it takes to download the update, why are people so adamant about not including it with the Newburyport update?
1) Because it requires a (good) internet connection. The installer just has a checkbox marked "LANDR". Not a word of explanation. 2) Because if you want it, it's free at the LandR site anyway. Leee
Is LANDR running in the background as soon as you open Sonar? Is it creating an open Internet connection before you even choose to use it?
It phones home to look for updates, so, yes.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 08:03:19
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☄ Helpfulby Makzimia 2016/02/26 11:10:06
Hi folks, Thank you for all your comments. I just wanted to set some facts straight about the Landr installer and why we include it. Our primary goal with SONAR is to give customers a seamless experience using the software irrespective of their experience. We have been working towards this goal for many years now. SONAR has a wide user base composed of musicians, producers, sound engineers many of whom are NOT expert users who can easily tweak their systems. Our support records attest to the fact that many users just install the program and don't realize that they can go back to command center and install optional components. Its not necessarily intuitive to many people who don't have a technical background. In light of the above our goal is to make features easily accessible in the user interface and having a new feature that requires a secondary install creates a bad user experience. For example many of our support calls relate to melodyne not being available in the region fx menu due to this. This is always a trade off between installer size and convenience. In the case of Melodyne we didn't include the installer because of size restrictions (it is a 146MB installer and takes time to run). For Landr their installer is just 50MB so we chose to include it especially since the choice for it is in the export menu. This is no different from the approach we took with Soundcloud which requires you to log in to their service. By any definition it would be a poor user experience if you had to install soundcloud as an optional install before you could use it. Regarding the Landr app itself, their client app is exactly like the soundcloud app in that it does nothing until you choose to export. There is no impact on system performance since it doesnt run in the background. It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it. As many have pointed out there is also the possibility to avoid installing it if you use the command center custom options. While you do have to pay to use the Landr service regularly, previews are free even if you don't pay for a subscription so its still useful to audition mixes. As has been explained in many threads, for many musicians who don't use mastering services frequently or lack the skills to do this themselves (I think its fair to say that most musicians don't know how to master) Landr is very likely to be all they will need for mastering. We will however continue to improve on our mastering tools and plugins that cater to the pro production audience and even have some goodies in development for subsequent updates. Finally, the entire industry is moving to a service oriented model. SONAR is not just a closed DAW for power users but is an open platform for music production. That means integrating popular tools and standards such as ARA, VST3 and even services like SoundCloud and Landr which are integrated as export options. If anything it was our foresight to provide for external encoders (that has existed for close to 10 years), that allowed us to integrate Landr so easily. It was done with minimal changes to SONAR and was essentially just an installer drop in for us. My request is to be tolerant and open minded to the needs of other users. Just because a feature is of no use to one doesn't imply that its not useful to another set of users. There are already several who have said this will greatly help improve their mixes and save time.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2016/02/26 08:26:58
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Paul P
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 08:20:40
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
In light of the above our goal is to make features easily accessible in the user interface and having a new feature that requires a secondary install creates a bad user experience. For example many of our support calls relate to melodyne not being available in the region fx menu due to this.
Thanks Noel for the clear overview of things from the Cakewalk perspective. I would have preferred receiving this statement before the update was released. I think the discussions would then have been mainly positive in nature. I can't help but think that to not state beforehand that LANDR was in fact optional was a way of pushing it onto people's systems.
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jpetersen
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 08:33:11
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it.
Ah, that's good information.
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Anderton
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:22:12
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MacFurse
Craig, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have not heard you so passionately defend your position, time and time again before. I applaud your persistence, and once again, you've taught me things, or made me aware of them, just by hearing you speak. Thanks. It's been very clear to me right from the start what you thought the benefits of LANDR are, and I agree with you. It's great for it's intended use, which is NOT Master Engineering.
But your post above, I believe, highlights why there is so much debate here. LANDR is NOT for SONAR users. [snip]
I respect your position on this and your arguments, but I think the target audience is wrongly placed.
First, thanks for the calm, intelligent, and passionate discourse Since Gibson acquired Cakewalk I've become more aware of the customer base.The Artist version has been very successful, and it's mostly entry-level people who buy it. The percentage of Platinum owners is smaller than the sum total of Artist and Professional owners, and even a cursory look at this forum shows that there are even a lot of Platinum users with pretty basic questions...including the hardy perennial, "So I mixed a song, but it sounds so much quieter than commercial recordings. What am I doing wrong?" I don't see the target audience as misplaced, I see our little pro corner of the audio world as riding the coattails of consumer electronics, just as we have with computers in general. As mentioned before, I know how to master so in terms of mastering music, I don't need LANDR for the same functions that a GoPro owner would. However as I also mentioned, clients who have access to LANDR will make my life easier on mastering projects. So ultimately, it's a tool. The percentage of SONAR users who find it useful will not be 100%, but it won't be 0% either. I'm sure that many SONAR users will use it for something like doing quick reference masters, or even for finished projects that aren't mission-critical if they don't feel comfortable mastering something themselves or don't have the budget for a professional mastering engineer.
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Anderton
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:32:06
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tenfoot
Anderton
I'm not a big fan of presets, here's why.
So you truly believe that landr is that different to a preset in a mastering plugin Craig? I have given it a spin and to me the results were pretty similar. Like any mastering plugin preset, it certainly works better on some tracks than it does on others, and the end result is sometimes better but never brilliant. Surely your 'works by coincidence' assertion could apply equally to it?
Yes and no. First, the "no" part. I'm quite sure it does more than a preset because on the examples I've heard, it has identified build-ups that need to be tamed, and these have been in different frequency ranges. I commonly need to add shallow cuts at various places in songs when mastering, but they're not always in the same frequency range. LANDR seems capable of identifying where those kinds of issues are, and dealing with them. Similarly, it seems to know how much brightness to add. Noel's cut needed more high end, and LANDR added it. OTOH when I fed in a song that I'd mastered to see if I could fool it and LANDR did essentially nothing at all, it must have "decided" that the spectral balance was correct. I don't know about the extent of "artificial intelligence" in the program, but it clearly makes decisions based on contextual analysis. Presets can't do that. Now for the "yes" part - it's not a human, so I doubt that it can (at least not yet) make "out of the box," or perhaps more correctly, "out of the algorithm" decisions. LANDR claims the engine will learn over time, so this may become less of an issue in the future. I also think this may be why LANDR has emphasized offering free previews, because it's not good to have disappointed customers . Some music will be a better fit with the system and some won't, so with the previews, people will know whether what they've submitted is a good fit or not.
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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:34:28
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Hi folks,
Thank you for all your comments. I just wanted to set some facts straight about the Landr installer and why we include it.
Our primary goal with SONAR is to give customers a seamless experience using the software irrespective of their experience. We have been working towards this goal for many years now. SONAR has a wide user base composed of musicians, producers, sound engineers many of whom are NOT expert users who can easily tweak their systems. Our support records attest to the fact that many users just install the program and don't realize that they can go back to command center and install optional components. Its not necessarily intuitive to many people who don't have a technical background.
In light of the above our goal is to make features easily accessible in the user interface and having a new feature that requires a secondary install creates a bad user experience. For example many of our support calls relate to melodyne not being available in the region fx menu due to this.
This is always a trade off between installer size and convenience. In the case of Melodyne we didn't include the installer because of size restrictions (it is a 146MB installer and takes time to run).
For Landr their installer is just 50MB so we chose to include it especially since the choice for it is in the export menu. This is no different from the approach we took with Soundcloud which requires you to log in to their service. By any definition it would be a poor user experience if you had to install soundcloud as an optional install before you could use it.
Regarding the Landr app itself, their client app is exactly like the soundcloud app in that it does nothing until you choose to export. There is no impact on system performance since it doesnt run in the background. It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it. As many have pointed out there is also the possibility to avoid installing it if you use the command center custom options.
While you do have to pay to use the Landr service regularly, previews are free even if you don't pay for a subscription so its still useful to audition mixes. As has been explained in many threads, for many musicians who don't use mastering services frequently or lack the skills to do this themselves (I think its fair to say that most musicians don't know how to master) Landr is very likely to be all they will need for mastering. We will however continue to improve on our mastering tools and plugins that cater to the pro production audience and even have some goodies in development for subsequent updates.
Finally, the entire industry is moving to a service oriented model. SONAR is not just a closed DAW for power users but is an open platform for music production. That means integrating popular tools and standards such as ARA, VST3 and even services like SoundCloud and Landr which are integrated as export options.
If anything it was our foresight to provide for external encoders (that has existed for close to 10 years), that allowed us to integrate Landr so easily. It was done with minimal changes to SONAR and was essentially just an installer drop in for us.
My request is to be tolerant and open minded to the needs of other users. Just because a feature is of no use to one doesn't imply that its not useful to another set of users. There are already several who have said this will greatly help improve their mixes and save time.
I think it's been made quite clear that even the folks who are liking LANDR think that it would be better as a separate installer. So is this the final word? It's going to remain in the Main download/installer? If so then for the first time since X2 I'm going to have to reconsider my future with Sonar. This was handled very poorly. Sorry if that seems unreasonable or harsh but a huge reason of why I (and others) enjoy Cake products is because, when it's possible and reasonable to do so, you guys listen and take action. As far as many of the assertions you made about this installer the user base have already reported the exact opposite. The LANDR uninstall leaves remnants. The LANDR app phones home for updates (as proven by a user who already had the client installed... your new version caused an update prompt) and even creates it's own icon. It is not just an export option it is a program from some outside company trying to sell us something without actually providing any real value (the exact same service is available from their website). Apparently, as discovered by user mettulus, even if you are aware that this thing is in the main dowload installer and go about an advanced install so you can uncheck it STILL leaves a little remnant stating it wasn't installed (possibly as data gathering). Comparing it to the Soundcloud uploader does not seem even close to comparable because I've never had some Soundcloud app show up, create an icon or nag me like this LANDR thing has done to others. However if Soundcloud DOES have some weird program skulking about my system I would not like that either BUT at least I know who they are. Comparing it to Melodyne which actually does amazing things and adds immense benefit to the package is just wrong. I can think of a ton of other tools that would be WAY more appropriate in the main installer including Melodyne... but they aren't. I don't know if you guys got pressured by Gibson to cram this thing in there or if LANDR waved so much cash around you couldn't refuse but this is really out of character for Cakewalk. I've been a big booster of Cake and Sonar over the years and have been scrambling to figure out how to manage a reup once my script ends (BTW... yanking the upgrade deal early messed that up) but if this is the type of thing that's going to be snuck in and Cake isn't going to take legtimate concerns seriously then I just don't know what to think anymore. Something else is going on here and the more that gets revealed about this company and it's little app the more suspicious I get. Now I'm just one guy but if you've read the posts about this, and I'm sure you have been, I am not alone. This is damaging the product and the trust based relationship with us customers. Is it really worth it? And to finish up... it's one thing when freeware/donationware/budget programs do this but Sonar, although an excellent value, is NOT some cheapo piece of junk. It's an investment that people pay good money for and expect the CORE PROGRAM to remain uncompromised by such blatant product placement/bloatware. Sorry, but this thing simply does not belong in the main installer. Please reconsider.
post edited by Beepster - 2016/02/26 09:49:20
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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:39:28
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jpetersen
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it.
Ah, that's good information.
It's misinformation. It leaves remnants. For those who got stuck with it unaware you may have to use CCleaner, RevoUninstaller, manually remove the entries or simply restore to a previous state and install again using advanced/verbose mode and deselect the LANDR installer. This is why I'm getting upset. This is being treated like no big deal but it is seriously not cool for people who take this type of thing seriously and are careful about what kind of garbage gets put on their DAWs.
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fireberd
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:43:48
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"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 09:54:54
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fireberd
Beepster. Good post!
Thank you. I'm really not enjoying being an arse about this but it seems like a really important turning point for Cake. I have gone to GREAT lengths to keep my system free of junk programs and I always trusted Cake not to do this type of thing. I'm sure that is the case for MANY others as well. Easily resolved by separate installers. Then load up my account with as much third party junk as you want. Then it's MY choice what to check out and what to ignore. Cheers.
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NeoSoul
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 10:03:18
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Beepster
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I think it's been made quite clear that even the folks who are liking LANDR think that it would be better as a separate installer.
So is this the final word? It's going to remain in the Main download/installer? If so then for the first time since X2 I'm going to have to reconsider my future with Sonar. This was handled very poorly.
Sorry if that seems unreasonable or harsh but a huge reason of why I (and others) enjoy Cake products is because, when it's possible and reasonable to do so, you guys listen and take action.
As far as many of the assertions you made about this installer the user base have already reported the exact opposite. The LANDR uninstall leaves remnants. The LANDR app phones home for updates (as proven by a user who already had the client installed... your new version caused an update prompt) and even creates it's own icon. It is not just an export option it is a program from some outside company trying to sell us something without actually providing any real value (the exact same service is available from their website).
Apparently, as discovered by user mettulus, even if you are aware that this thing is in the main dowload installer and go about an advanced install so you can uncheck it STILL leaves a little remnant stating it wasn't installed (possibly as data gathering).
Comparing it to the Soundcloud uploader does not seem even close to comparable because I've never had some Soundcloud app show up, create an icon or nag me like this LANDR thing has done to others. However if Soundcloud DOES have some weird program skulking about my system I would not like that either BUT at least I know who they are.
Comparing it to Melodyne which actually does amazing things and adds immense benefit to the package is just wrong. I can think of a ton of other tools that would be WAY more appropriate in the main installer including Melodyne... but they aren't.
I don't know if you guys got pressured by Gibson to cram this thing in there or if LANDR waved so much cash around you couldn't refuse but this is really out of character for Cakewalk.
I've been a big booster of Cake and Sonar over the years and have been scrambling to figure out how to manage a reup once my script ends (BTW... yanking the upgrade deal early messed that up) but if this is the type of thing that's going to be snuck in and Cake isn't going to take legtimate concerns seriously then I just don't know what to think anymore.
Something else is going on here and the more that gets revealed about this company and it's little app the more suspicious I get.
Now I'm just one guy but if you've read the posts about this, and I'm sure you have been, I am not alone. This is damaging the product and the trust based relationship with us customers.
Is it really worth it?
And to finish up... it's one thing when freeware/donationware/budget programs do this but Sonar, although an excellent value, is NOT some cheapo piece of junk. It's an investment that people pay good money for and expect the CORE PROGRAM to remain uncompromised by such blatant product placement/bloatware.
Sorry, but this thing simply does not belong in the main installer.
Please reconsider.
+1 Well said!
post edited by NeoSoul - 2016/02/26 10:19:00
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jpetersen
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 10:07:25
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Is Sonar Platinum not going to be a pro tool anymore, then?
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Beepster
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Re: The LANDR Thread
2016/02/26 10:20:21
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jpetersen
Is Sonar Platinum not going to be a pro tool anymore, then?
Unless they actually hatchet up the program itself then of course it's going to remain a pro tool. It still does all the pro stuff it always does and it's great (which is why I use it). This is an entirely different issue. Also I don't believe offering or promoting LANDR is wrong or devalues Sonar itself as a professional tool just like I don't think Style Dials or the other simpler plugs take away from the more advanced features. They are just extra options. I don't want my beef mixed up with that other side discussion because I really don't see anything wrong with anyone at any skill level using what works for them/makes them happy. I just do not want unkown, unwanted and possibly detrimental things getting snuck on to my most valuable tool (my computer). I also don't just use my DAW for music. I do a lot of my more sensitive personal/business tasks on there because I KNOW I've kept out riff raff programs and don't go hunting around the tubes willy nilly on it. So yeah... let's not confuse the issue. Aside from the fact it just happens to be their app that is getting bundled LANDR has basically NOTHING to do with my complaint. Hopefully that makes sense.
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