"You spoke. We listened."

Hello Sonar team,
 
I spoke too but nobody seems to listen to my EMails and my crash dumps, which are automatically sent to you (hopefully).
 
My Sonar Professional constantly crashes. Sometimes in the udpredictable way and sometimes in predictable. What I can reproduce every time is:
- When I add a new track which has its' input or output to the patch point and when I hit the playback button (PLAY) and hit it again (STOP) - Sonar crashes every time
- When I add a new VST-instrument (VST or VST3 doesn't matter) and do the same (PLAY and STOP then) - Sonar crashes.
 
In both cases I have to start and to STOP playback in order to cause a crash. Sometimes, in the last playback before crashing I hear music which is kind "out of sync", which sound to my ears like a problem with latency compensation.
I tried to reproduce the crash with [FX]-button on and off right now and I get the same behavior in both cases.
 
So do you really listen or do you provide us every month with SONAR updates who nobody needs, to pretend working on something? As existing customer, I would appreciate to get some updates for the core engine, instead of Alpha-MAC-Version and a new skin.
 
BTW I bought SONAR and both sides (you and me) entered the contract. Replying to my emails, where I asked you for support is part of this contract.
 
Thanks in advance. Regards from Germany.
V.

Hi Bob,
as I already mentioned, I tried to reach Cakewalk via eMail but I never got a response.
 
I can reproduce the behavior mentioned above on two completely different computers with two different audio interfaces. The first Interface is connected via USB and the second one via PCIe (they are not connected simultaneously). Currently I am using the DELL T1600 Workstation.
 
To reproduce a crash is very simple:
1. Open Sonar
2. Load Project (it seems to depend on opened project, since I cannot reproduce it on a completely new project)
3. Add Dimension LE as new track
4. Click [PLAY]
5. Crash (I made a screenshot but unfortunatelly it is not possible to upload Pictures on this forum)
 
Maybe it has something to do with patch points in any way - Looks like I can reproduce it only on Projects which use patch points.
 
Furthermore there is a bug with internationalization:
For instance, when I group sliders and rename the group via Group Manager (I don't use german characters) I get additional arbitrary characters which are appended to the entered string.
 
If neccessary, I can send you the project or additional Information.
 
Regards from Munich,
Vlad

Hello Bob and azslow,
 
now I did following:
I deleted all tracks and busses from my Project (even the master track), as well as all synths from the synthesizer rack. So the project is completely empty:
1. Now when I create a new track with an instance of Dimension LE and hit [PLAY] and then [STOP], nothing happens.
2. When I create one more track with an instance of any other synth (SessionDrummer for instance) and hit [PLAY] and then [STOP], SONAR crashes.
 
I can reproduce this behevior only with this very special empty project, where I deleted the entire content. If I create a completely new Cakewalk-Project and do the same (add two synths), nothing happens. It seems to be an issue which is reproduceable only with this very special project for any reason.
 
Should I send this empty project to Cakewalk in order to put your developers in position to make diff between completely new project and this one, where I deleted the entire content?
 
BTW I tried your suggestions with MME and WDM Drivers but it makes no difference.
 
Regards from Munich,
Vlad

Vlad -
 
As scook suggests, submitting the problem report with your project file will be the best for the Cakewalk folks to isolate the cause of the problem.  I would then continue with a new project
 
BTW, which specific release of Sonar are you using?

Good luck with getting it narrowed down/resolved.
 
 

I found free webspace and uploaded it :
 
workupload.com/file/zXR52NK
 
The file is named error.zip and contains 4 files: 
newProject.cwp (This is how a project looks like in my environment when I click on File->NewProject in SONAR. This one causes NO crash)
newProject.cwp.assets (I have no idea what *.assets file does but it might be usefull..)
 
deletedContent.cwp (This is the project I spoke about with deleted content. This one causes crash when I add two VST-instruments and START/STOP the playback. Try to add Dimension LE first and then SessionDrummer (or any other VST-instrument) and then press [Play] and [Stop])
deletedContent.cwp.assets
 
I am already curious to learn about your experience with my files..
 
 
Thanks in advance,
V.

Hi azslow,
 
Since I don't use exotic plugIns (the most of my plugIns are PluginAlliance, NomadFactory or Waves - nothing is cracked or something like that), I cannot imagine that I am the only one with such problems. I got used to restart SONAR and then continue working on my project (Note: if you add two synths to the project we talk about and if you don't start the playback but you save the project first and then restart SONAR or reopen the project, everything is OK for a while).
 
Probably the other users with similar problems are resigned too because CW almost never replies to EMails, as well as to bugReports so they live with that and look for workarounds. I have a couple of similar problems in Cakewalk, not only crashes but internationalization and stuff like that. I sent them eMails but they don't really care..
 
BTW Do you also have the problem with [FX] - button in the Mix-Module? Try following:
1. Click the [FX] button (which deactivates all FX in your project) and set it to "blue" (-> all EFX disabled)
2. Now click on the main [FX]-button of any track (on the top of the ProChannel) and change its' state
3. Now try to switch the main [FX] in the Mix-Module on / off again. In my SONAR-version, the main [FX] - button has now lost control/binding over the channel where you have changed the [FX] state while the main [FX] button in the Mix-Module was OFF.
 
I think that trivial issues like that are acceptable for an alpha-version but not for professional audio software.
 
 
Anyway, I have two options:
1. Wait for a bugFix (which is unlikely because they are probably busy with Mac-version now) 
2. Switch to CuBase or ProTools
 
Thank you for your time.
 
Regards from Munich / Germany
V.

azslow3

bewerber2
Since I don't use exotic plugIns (the most of my plugIns are PluginAlliance, NomadFactory or Waves - nothing is cracked or something like that), I cannot imagine that I am the only one with such problems.

In your "empty" project, I see Rapture Piano, Podolski and Strings.
So it can be that not many people use some combination which you use all the time.

 
Rapture and Strings are part of Cakewalk bundle, Podolski is a free synth by u-he, which is a well known company. I tried them a long time ago and afterwards I deleted them (to be more precise: I deleted tracks using them, while they remain in the synth rack).
The more important question is: why did they stay in the synthesizer rack while I deleted all the tracks from my project? In my opinion, this doesn't really make a sense to keep an instance of a synth in the synth rack (which probably allocates big amount of memory) without its corresponding track. I would expect a popup with a question: "Do you also want to delete synth from the synth rack?" when I delete a track. So another bug?
But as you already mentioned: Sonar crashes with or without content inside of synth rack.
 

azslow3
Regards from HD

 
errrm... Where is "HD"???
 

Hi Scook,
 
sounds like Microsoft: "It's not a bug, it's a feature"
 
OK, I know that but what is the sense? I am JAVA developer and in JAVA there is something called "garbage collector" which deletes an instance of every object, which is no longer referenced by any other object. This would be the correct behavior. If a synth is neither referenced by a track nor by any drum map or something else, why is it still in the rack? But it is only a minor stuff, I am not really bothered about that. I would appreciate if CW developers would prevent SONAR from crashing.
 
Greetz
V.

bewerber2
Hi Scook,
 
sounds like Microsoft: "It's not a bug, it's a feature"
 
OK, I know that but what is the sense? I am JAVA developer and in JAVA there is something called "garbage collector" which deletes an instance of every object, which is no longer referenced by any other object. This would be the correct behavior. If a synth is neither referenced by a track nor by any drum map or something else, why is it still in the rack? But it is only a minor stuff, I am not really bothered about that. I would appreciate if CW developers would prevent SONAR from crashing.
 
Greetz
V.

To me, it seems to work in a logical manner:
 
1. If you insert a synth, then it asks you if you want to create track(s).
 
2. If you delete a synth, then it asks if you want to delete the associated tracks(s). Here is some garbage collection in action :-)
 
There can be one, or many related tracks created when you insert a synth. Plus related tracks can be created by you after the synth is inserted. So it really is up to you to decide what to do with the synth when deleting tracks.  It may come as a surprise to discover this, but IMHO this just makes more sense from a workflow design perspective.
 
So, just like if you create a folder on your desktop and place objects in it.  Deleting those objects does not delete the folder. However, if you delete the folder, it will delete the objects in the folder.
 

bewerber2
 
I have no idea how the file arrived in it's current state - the problem has started long time ago.. 
 

As a developer I am sure you understand, this could be a problem for Cakewalk too.
 

bewerber2
 
The current state of my project (with no deleted content) is: when I add something to the project be it a synth or a simple new track or a patch point, I have to save the entire project first, then close it, then reopen it and then I can continue to work on it for a while which is very frustrating. If I don't save and close it after adding something, SONAR goes bye-bye as soon as I stop the playback (which is very interesting, because adding something while project is not playing or simple click on [PLAY] doesn't cause a crash. Only PLAY and then STOP causes the crash)..

There may be no way to determine the cause of the problem in this particular project. It may need to be rebuilt.
 

bewerber2
Maybe Dimension LE has something to do with that because I have noticed that if I open 4 or 5 projects (which all use Dimension LE, since it is part of all my projects) one after another inside of 1 SONAR session, Dimension LE crashes with the message "Not enough memory to load Dimension LE.." (or similar)

If you feel Dimension LE is a problem, try replacing it with Rapture Session, a much newer synth which is a Dimension Pro player too. However it may not be the synth per se but the programs the synth is loading which are the problem. It is impossible to say with the information provided.
 
Hopefully all of this information was provided in your initial trouble report (included a better description of the error messages) along with precise information about your OS, PC hardware and audio interface. As a developer you can appreciate all of this information is helpful when trying to solve a problem for a client.
 

bewerber2
 
Indeed... our discussion becomes more and more technical - maybe we shout reference it in a software developer forum 
 
This is not correct abacab (my opinion): A synth instance is not a "folder". What you describe is like if I would create an object which is "nowhere" by default and then look for it from somewhere else in order to connect it. The clean architecture would be (let's take the drum map manager for instance):
1. Open drum map manager
2. I would like to set a bassDrum to C#1 from a drum-synth which is not yet available in the synth rack, so it doesn't appear in the source-dropdown
3. In this dropdown (where you can choose a source) there shoud be a button which is called "add new instrument".
4. If I click on that, a new instance should be created in the synth rack.

 
I was trying to make a simple analogy of how this feature currently works. Not how it should work.
 
Since I am not a Cakewalk developer, I cannot help with this request.
 
But there is a Sonar forum for this!
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Features-Ideas-f76.aspx
 

bewerber2
Also, it would be nice to have a feature inside of the synth rack, which enables an overview of referenced tracks ("where is this synth referenced from?")

I would add to this, a diagram of all signal routing within Sonar would be nice too :-)
 
But back on topic for a moment. I have been following this thread with interest in learning to troubleshoot  a "bad" Sonar project.  There have been some good suggestions made, the best one being to see if you can create the problem again with a new project.
 
Since the problem does not occur with a new project, and another user can duplicate the issue with the "bad" project using his installed software and VST's, it's very obvious that the problem lies somewhere in the project file itself.
 
How it got this way could possibly never be determined unless you can re-create a new project that fails the same way, and detail the step-by-step you took to get there.
 
As a developer you must understand that a lot goes on under the hood of a Sonar project.  There are many variables to store, and if something gets corrupted, is it something entirely random, a one-off?  Or is it a reproducible?
 
One example does not make a pattern ...

bewerber2
 
Maybe Dimension LE has something to do with that because I have noticed that if I open 4 or 5 projects (which all use Dimension LE, since it is part of all my projects) one after another inside of 1 SONAR session, Dimension LE crashes with the message "Not enough memory to load Dimension LE.." (or similar)
 
Greetz,
V.

Just curious what your system specs are. What OS version and how much RAM?  The "Not enough memory ..." error sounds like it could be a resource issue ...

bewerber2
I agree with you abacab, but please don't forget that I am a customer and I payed for SONAR. I am not an employee of Cakewalk and they don't pay me to debug their software.

This is true but there is a minimum of information necessary to have a chance at resolving a problem. Without it the request may fall to the bottom of the pile. No one is suggesting you debug software, just provide an actionable problem report. I do not see enough information provided in this thread to offer any hope of a solution.

An actionable problem report would include steps to create the bad file, error message encountered (maybe the translated and paraphrased examples above are enough but I doubt it) and/or details of other unexpected behavior. Providing a project file and current system specs is not enough. To expect someone to look at the file and see the cause from the effect is a stretch. Still one can hope.