fitzj

Jose7822


What's wrong with DigiCheck?

Digicheck is perfect but it would nice to have sonar meters in sync with digicheck saves  flicking screen to watch digicheck meters.

 
'Options::Always on Top' in Digicheck.  Problem solved :-)
 
I understand wanting them in Sonar, but there's no need to spend money on 3rd party K-System meters (unless you want to).  Obviously, that's up to you.
 
 
Take care!
 
 

Yes, that's normal.

Also, see my posts above.

What I have got from all of this is the BlueCat is spot on and totally correct. If you want to use the K system metering then you do need a plug in to do it becasue of the main reason of the way the Sonar meters are deriving their indication eg using the actual rms value of a sinewave. So by using the K system metering on the stereo buss one should be able to be spot on with recording and mixing levels etc. It is also easy to calibrate external VU meters to match the K system metering provided in the BlueCat plugin as well.

Dont forget the band limited pink noise in terms of setting monitor gain.

Do any of you have any recommendations on buying a decent SPL meter? I would love to accurately calibrate my monitors for the K-System but I have no idea what a good brand/model SPL meter would be. Thanks!

Bit...I thought it was 1M from the speakers???

It's wherever your ears are when you're doing your critical listening. For most people, that is usually about 1 meter / 3 feet for conventional nearfields.

For those who use larger speakers for monitoring (so-called "midfield" speakers), 4 or 5 feet may work better, and if you're using soffit-mounted fullrange speakers they may be 6 feet or more away. The idea is to always hear a consistent volume level for a given fader position, even with multiple monitors and varying distances.

Has anyone here tried Voxengo's SPAN 2.0? It's free. I downloaded it from the KVR thread that Aleksey started a few weeks ago and it rocks! All the K-System metering options are available.
http://www.kvraudio.com/f...torder=asc&start=0

He's talking about version 2, which is still in beta but can be downloaded now.

Voxengo Span 2 is very good. Sspecially if you make it blue. I am into Span for the metering options. The K system metering is quite good in Span. Except the main bar graph meters are displaying a peak level all the time which I suppose is a good thing to do. When in K-14 metering mode, the display is marked from 0 db up to +14 so you can see where your music is peaking and how high. There is a digital readout of the RMS value, and while it is good to monitor it, its not an ideal way of showing it.

It is still not like my VUs though. Span is OK in Pure + 3 mode which is handy for getting the indicators a bit higher in tracking for example. It is more like the rms VU response. At the moment the real VU's combined with Span is a good combination. But I would not mind seeing a digital version of the VU that can stay in RMS mode most of the time around 0 db  and with similar ballistics to a quality VU meter. Can the Blue Cat meters do this?

Span lets you know what your average rms level is so if you have chosen to work at K 14 for example most of the average level will be down at that point. Of course the Spectrum analyser is pretty useful too!

Jeff Evans

Voxengo Span 2 is very good. Sspecially if you make it blue. I am into Span for the metering options. The K system metering is quite good in Span.

Ha ha, that's hilarious, I went straight for the blue GUI as well, Jeff! Then I set the FFT to red. Very nice on the eyes. I really enjoy SPAN 2.0 so far with the K-System metering, max crest factor readouts, clipping incidents readout and spectrum hold function. I even noticed that whenever you scroll the mouse cursor over the spectrum graph it tells you the pitch name (plus octave number!) and how many cents away from that pitch away it is! This thing is pretty nuts.

Mike. The movements themselves are very good. Expensive and larger movements which I purchased in the US for about $60 each. The type of meters that are in very expensive outborad gear and mixing consoles. They can be bought new up to $200 for a good VU meter. There are a lot of cheap poorer quality meters on ebay but the nice ones appear there too. When you apply exactly +4 dbu or 1.23 v rms to them they show 0 db. Also a burst of sinewave has to be at least 300 ms wide before the needle reaches 0 db. The time constant is correct. I drive them from an ART Clean Box which has a high Z line level input and a 600 Bal line output. There is a variable control which makes adjustment of the VU 's cal levels easier.

My Yamaha digital mixer can send alignment tones at any level. The VU's are essentially across my Main Stereo Buss of the Yamaha Mixer all the time. So if I want to work at K 14 level I just send -14 db from the mixer and adjust the VU's to read 0db VU. So while in the digital world most of the rms is around -14, the meters are showing around 0 db. (Note this is uncompressed tracking and mixing levels not mastering levels) Then its just up to watching the ballistics of the movement and getting to know that erratic, uneven and wild movements usualy spell a problem and fluid even motion usually means things are good in the mix.

When mastering I just re adjust the setting of the variable control on the VU amplifiers. I might drop that down another 8 db for mastering. (from 14 db that is taking it up -6 db. For louder masters I tend to work at k 12 standard during tracking/mixing and then change the VU cal by 6 db down to - 6db) Then mixes have to be pretty hot before the meters reach 0 db VU. The frequency response of them is not great but they are good in the lower part of the spectrum.

If I recalibrate to K 20 level, I resend the digital mixer alignment tone at -20 then adjust VU's for 0 db. Now the VU's are nearing 0db while the rms of the music is around -20 db FS. If I import that pink noise test signal that is on Bob Katz's site, and that is meant to be exactly -20db , my VU's show 0db when playing that clip back. That confirms that I must be right with all my levels showing what they should be.

I am keen to find a digital equivalent and not necessarily in the form of the VU meter scale, it could be a curved, large fine segment display similar to the Durroughs meter. The Durroughs is menat to be an excellent reference.

remember that VU meters are like watching RMS,....not PEAK...

once you put in some time with VU's, and mixing like Jeff mentioned above (assuming that the volume reaching his ears is the same, at K14, K20 and K12, ) you realise the simplicity and elegance of the method.

I actually track and mix at K20...

I glance at peak meters maybe 1% of the time I am watching RMS.

In fact I never clip...ever.

I have clean, dynamic mixes that end up peaking around -6dB and let the mastering engineer take care of the rest.

cheers


Wiz

I am not sure either what the actual output impedance of the Clean Box is. Low I would imagine. There was not quite enough gain at K 20 level so I had to drive the meters in bridge mode across Pins 2 and 3 eg an extra 6 db.  At -20db K ref level, I could only get my VU's to read -3db so I needed a little more gain. By running the meters across pins 2 and 3 I got 6 db of extra gain which is just enough. Up to +3 if needed. I have found that often when tracking and mixing the meters can fall about 3 db short and it is nice to just make them read a little higher in certain situations. eg using the full scale to show the music. (Voxengo Span has this with the Pure + 3db setting)

As to the benefits of what they show, I am a great fan of them. Pro CD's make them move a certain way too. It is interesting to listen to the music and see what parts of the music are making them move. And as you change your mix how the VU's start responding and behaving differently.

They are not sluggish at all. They jump up to 0db quite quickly (well 300ms anyway) but drop back down fast too. When things are good they dont go much past 0 db VU but just dance up to the mark nicely. They are also good for vocals and voice overs which was one of their very first uses.

There is a series resistor on each meter and I tried changing it initially to get the gain back without using pins 2 and 3 mode. It did not work so well as changing the series resistor altered the ballistics and I did not like them as much, so I put the series resistor back to its original value and found the gain another way.

MelvinJ you are going to have to make it yourself. Just take the full range pink noise on the site and set up a filter. A bandpass type arrangement will work fine. Set at 500Hz and 2000Hz. It should not add any gain etc. Try and get the slopes as steep as you can.

Yes fitzj, and once again sorry for the confusion earlier. The Bob Katz file is exactly correct as it is with no band limited pink noise.

It's a good thing to get levels calibrated inside a digital recording system, but its another thing to calibrate the level in the room as well. eg monitor gain or calibrated monitor gain. (You have to calibrate the digital system first then the room monitor levels second!) The idea is to make your chosen working K system level inside your digital system to always be the same sound pressure level in the room. They say the film stanadard of 83 db SPL per speaker is a good reference.

So playback the full range noise, and if you are using the noise that is at -20 db rms FS then your main meters should be showing 0 db (rms) and my VU's are saying 0db at this point as well. (I tweak my VU levels to read 0db) You can just adjust one speaker at a time for 83 db or 86 db both on with the full range pink noise, use the C weighting on the meter though. If you want to calibrate using the band limited noise then insert the filter over the noise (you need to add gain here + 8 db approx to make up for the loss of signal at the main outputs, mainouts or master buss must still show -20 db for the band limited pink noise) and switch off the right speaker and with the left monitor going, turn up the room volume to give you a 83 db SPL reading C weighting is Ok with band limited noise on a sound pressure meter. (C Weighting does have any effect on this type of noise so its OK to use either A or C but only on the band limited pink noise source)  I use the Radio Shack meter to give me a reasonably accurate reading. Check the right speaker and it usually the same. Put both on and you will get about 86 db SPL. The sound meter is positioned where you are as the engineer.

Now playback some music that has been tracked and mixed with the same ref level eg -20 db. Now you find the SPL meter will be also peaking just on 86 db SPL with that music as well. (C Weighting now should be used while listening to the full range music program)

Now you are in the world of 86 db SPL and its great. Not too soft, not too loud, just right. Can work at that all day long. There is a good 20 db of headroom above that which means the music can get as loud as 106 db SPL!  The movies use the 106 db of dynamic range sometimes. (Modern CD's are stealing this lovely 20 db of dynamic range and use it for ill gotten gains of just making a loud CD!)

If you decide to work at the -14 db standard for a while, everything will be 6 db louder. So you recalibrate the VU's and the room level to still be at 86 db SPL. You have to do the test again (with -14 waveforms) and create a new mark on your monitor gain. There will be three marks, one for -20, -14, -12 and when you get into mastering you can get into -6. This is why the monitor gain control is an expensive precision calibrated thing in a mastering studio.

If you want to listen to a mix loud, then you can stay at your K system level inside the digital system, but turn up the room now so it might be cranking at 96 or even 100 db SPL. But that is not a reference now it is something else. Its OK, but great to come back to 86 db SPL when ever you feel like it.  Remember to give your ears time to calm down after a crankin mix if you are intending to go back to 86 db SPL.

If a loud CD is averaging around - 3db, then 17 db of that lovely dynamic range has gone. Sure the music is 17 db louder now but we turn it down anyway to our desired level, but now there is only 3 db in the transient dynamic range left. Not much eh! That is where the -12 db K standard comes from. There is no need to even master above that. It is as high as we want to go rms wise but still keep 12 db of dynamic range up our sleeve. But 20 is even better.