Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 9:20 AM
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An other thing to consider is that the whole system presumes that a end listener has a stereotyped (pardon the pun) grade of playback system.
For practical purposes the k-20 has lots of "headroom" ONLY if the end users has a great stereo system capable of translating the quieter digital output into the expected SPL level at the listening position. If the end user is listening to playback on their Bose clock radio then the dynamics aren't going to be left by the time you get the room to the target SPL.
The k-12 has less headroom... and it is often times presumed that the music was up compressed to the hotter levels to sound good on a lesser grade playback system. The "hotter" digital signal will produce a higher SPL on any given system. In fact, the hotter digital signal may be required to get a cheap playback system to provide the expected SPL.
In my experience once you have a playback system that can rock the house with a "k-20" recording the whole system becomes extraneous. At some point you will simply set the levels where you want ( I have my Radio Shack meter sitting right here ) and strive for KNOWING what you are listening too.
I think the k-system may be a helpful exercise for folks who aren't fully aware that their 5" 50watt bookshelf speakers don't really have any clean headroom... it seems like it would be a lot simpler to just come out and talk about it frankly.
For folks who already have a nice clean system and know how to use it... the idea of turning down loud compressed music and turning up quiet delicate music to a familiar SPL level seems like a natural and routine adjustment.
best,
mike
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 9:32 AM
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Bristol_Jonesey
Is the K-system geared more towards un-mastered material, i.e. should I be inserting the plug on my “pre-master” bus, before any sort of loudening or limiting?
In other words, should I be attempting to achieve a level of K-14 before applying any sort of “mastering” The K-System was proposed as a Mastering method to arrive at certain levels of loudness. It was meant as the final RMS level for your music, so you would put the K-meter after the Limiter. It will obviously not compete with the RMS levels of the music being produced today. But that's the idea. It was meant as a way to fight the Loudness War that has been killing music for the past 15 years or so. Running the pink noise file through last night, I was gobsmacked at how loud K-14 is! I would love to mix at this level but at that volume, it’s clearly audible throughout the rest of the house, and I suspect it’s also audible to my unsympathetic neighbours. If you play a K-20 file (i.e. the pink noise file in this case) and monitor at K-14 then, yes, expect that to be loud. As already mentioned, the K-System is based on monitoring to a constant SPL no matter what the RMS level of the music is. However, you need to match that RMS level accordingly in order to obtain a constant SPL. That's why Bob Katz recommends marking your volume knob in 1dB increments, so that you are able to match any RMS level no matter who mastered it or if the K-System was used or not. The K-System is based on monitoring consistency at safe levels and being able to produce music with suitable transient information. HTH
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tarsier
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 10:14 AM
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Running the pink noise file through last night, I was gobsmacked at how loud K-14 is! I would love to mix at this level but at that volume, it’s clearly audible throughout the rest of the house, and I suspect it’s also audible to my unsympathetic neighbours.
If you play a K-20 file (i.e. the pink noise file in this case) and monitor at K-14 then, yes, expect that to be loud.
I think Bristol_Jonesy is still not quite clear on this. To be absolutely clear: The method is to play the -20 dBFS RMS pink noise and adjust your monitors to the desired SPL level. That's your reference loudness level. Now when you mix at that loudness level, you are mixing to the K-20 standard. If you want to mix to K-14 you turn your monitors down -6 dB and turn up your digital mix +6 dB so that you're mixing at the same sound level, but your digital mix has an RMS level that is 6 dB higher than before. As has been pointed out, the system is about always mixing/mastering at the same sound level. Thus if you want a "hotter master" or "louder product" you turn your speakers down, which requires you to turn your mix up. It is somewhat less important what that sound level is, but 83 dB SPL was chosen since it is already a film standard and works well for most people. The most important, vital part is that you always mix/master at the same SPL level. You mark where that SPL level is on your monitors and you mix/master so that your product is at that SPL level when you play it back. -20 dBFS RMS pink noise=83 dB SPL @ K-20. -20 dBFS RMS pink noise=77 dB SPL @ K-14. -14 dBFS RMS pink noise=83 dB SPL @ K-14
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 10:28 AM
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I think I got that bit tarsier - to clarify, after importing the 20dbfs pink noise file, I made 2 copies of it - one I increased the gain by 6db (K-14), the other I increased by 8db (K-12)
I then played back the K-14 file and increased my monitor level until I was getting 83db at the mix position (1 speaker at a time - 86db with both playing)
I say "increased my monitor level", not strictly true, but amounts to the same thing. My interface delivers it's output back to my desk which then feeds the monitors.
I aslo see that if I was to playback the -12 file, which would be a bit louder than the K-14 file, I would need to lower my desk fader to get a similar SPL at the mix position.
Conversely, the K-20 file would need the fader RAISING to get 86 db. Am I on the right lines so far?
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 10:36 AM
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Hey Bristol, Seems like you're on the right track now. However, I just wanted to correct a mistake I made when I said: If you play a K-20 file (i.e. the pink noise file in this case) and monitor at K-14 then, yes, expect that to be loud. I meant to say the opposite, as in if you set up your monitors for K-20 and play the K-14 file, then it would be too loud. Just clearing that up :-) Take care!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 10:38 AM
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Tell you what would be good - if one (or more) of you guys were to import one of my songs into your DAW and see what it looks/sounds like on your system.
The song "The Beauty In Your Soul" is currently available as a download on my Mixposure account (link below)
It's probably the "best" song I've ever mixed, it's quite long (12:41) and gets going properly after about 3 minutes.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 10:39 AM
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Jose7822
Hey Bristol,
Seems like you're on the right track now. However, I just wanted to correct a mistake I made when I said:
If you play a K-20 file (i.e. the pink noise file in this case) and monitor at K-14 then, yes, expect that to be loud.
I meant to say the opposite, as in if you set up your monitors for K-20 and play the K-14 file, then it would be too loud. Just clearing that up :-)
Take care!
Ok mate! Understood.
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 11:45 AM
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Hey Bristol,
I just checked out your song. It seems to have been mastered at around K-12. The meters looked right to me, though it does get a little hot at around 09:00 minutes into the song (nothing to worry about though). By the way, it sounds really nice. It sounds kinda strange at first, but it got real interesting as it picked up. Loved the guitars! Very nice work.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 11:49 AM
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Thanks Jose!
Glad you liked the song, but more importantly at this stage in my develpement is getting the levels about right.
I shall defnitely play around with it again tonight, and hopefully report back tomorrow.
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papa2005
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 11:52 AM
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9 minutes into the song? *LOL* Haven't listened but must wonder what the length is all about! *LOL*
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 12:19 AM
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Bristol_Jonesey
Thanks Jose!
Glad you liked the song, but more importantly at this stage in my develpement is getting the levels about right.
I shall defnitely play around with it again tonight, and hopefully report back tomorrow.
The best way to get an idea of what to aim for is to listen to the list Bob Katz provides in his website: http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html It's a list of what he considers well mastered recordings with good levels. It also shows you what monitoring level to use (once you calibrate your monitors of course). Your song is a little hot (probably at K-10), but definitely not as hot as some of the commercial recordings out there. For now, import one (or several) of the songs found in the Honor Roll list and put a K-System meter into the Master Bus. Notice how the meters move and where they are based on the dynamics of the songs. It should be hovering mostly around 0dB, with some yellow, and only touching red in the really loud parts. It will obviously be below 0dB on soft parts. Once you do a couple of these you will get the hang of it. HTH
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 12:32 AM
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mike_mccue
"Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away."
Can you elaborate?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to comment on this. I believe Jeff misunderstood Bob Katz. AFAIK, what Bob says is that smaller rooms with close loud speakers will have to be turned down compared to a bigger room with loud speaker placed farther away in order to produce the same SPL level. At least that's what makes sense to me.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 2:33 PM
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Makes perfect sense to me as well!!
Thank you!
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 3:28 PM
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One of things I see as a teacher of sound engineering is the inconsistent levels that students get on their tracks. From barely there at -30 db to smashing through 0 db FS! I think K system is also about maintaining consistent and controlled levels inside the digital recording system right from the early stages of tracking and overdubbing through to buss stem levels and then final mix levels and then onto final mastering levels on your mix. And you are hearing it a consistent volume all the time too.
Calibrated monitor gain is another issue but obviously works in with the K levels chosen. And I have thought of the obvious thing re speaker levels too. A mastering suite may have two sets of monitors and one may be 3 feet away from you and the other 12 feet. I just find it hard to imagine that the further speakers are cranking at 95 db SPL (allowing for 6 db loss as distance is doubles theory) in order to get 83 db at the engineer position. I would have thought the SPL meter might be showing a reading higher than 83 db SPL at this point. So then I thought maybe he is saying that when both speakers are producing exactly the same SPL levels at the engineer, the closer speakers might sound slightly louder. I am open on that one.
I would love to stop at K 12 even and not do any mastering from there level wise. Turn up your monitors yes. But unfortunately there is a trend to make hotter CD's so we are forced to rise above an average level of -12. And you end up at my -6 level for mastering or even -4 sometimes if the client wants a louder CD. It does not matter then if you produce at -20 or -14 or -12 and then end up at - 4. You wont the know the difference. But if you do an album at -20 then it means you have got a beautiful set of masters with the best headroom. No matter what the end resolution ends up being. Instead of thinking about sample rate and bit depth which so often happens here, I like to think of bit depth (24 bit) and K 20 instead. Then you will get some beautiful sounding masters.
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 3:43 PM
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I did the set up.
Set my motu to 0
Set all faders on my Mackie Control pro to 0 including my master fader on the Mackie.
Played the pink noise file thru my left monitor, and adjusted the volume on the back of my monitor until my spl meter read 80db at the listening position. I then panned hard right and ran the pink noise thru my right monitor adjusting the volume on the back until I read 80 db from the listening position. I panned my pink noise to center, and got a reading of 83 db at my listening position.
2 things I have found.
1. 83db is a very comfortable listening level. I've been mixing at a much greater level.
2. When I got my left and right monitors at 80db each, I looked at the volume knob and realized that the volume knob on the right monitor was set lower than the volume knob on the left. (interesting)
Does this all seem right to you guys?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 3:48 PM
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Jeff, your insight into topics which are inherently difficult to understand, let alone master [sic] leaves me gobsmacked!
Kudos to you and all the other posters who are doing their best to explain the K-system in such detail to us lesser mortals
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 3:52 PM
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Just reading Bobby's post and I'm thinking out loud again.
When I ran the pink noise generator, I didn't pan the channel to one side, I simply muted the opposing channel......
Any issues with this? It's a mono file so there shouldn't, in theory be any pan law problems.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 4:14 PM
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What I find great is when people like liv4free says things like 83 db is a comfortable listening level (he has obviously found the right level!) and he realised that he has been mixing too loud. That is just such a good thing. Yes, spend the extended time with your mix at 83 db SPL and learn to love it. It is quite soft in its own way too but still loud enough to hear everything! I tend to work at 85 db just a little louder but that may be due to me being a bad boy years ago playing drums in very loud and I mean loud bands! I did escape from it though, I knew it was not good to be doing that at the time.
But as I have said what is really amazing is listening to your mix through a small single auratone type mono monitor at 65 db SPF for a while. Then you will really hear what is going on in your mix, especially a complex and dense mix. Heaps of things will suddenly sound out of balance. And when you take the time to sort them out so you can hear all of things in your complex mix then crank it up loud you will be pleased with what you hear.
Things like the snare really stand out on a small speaker. Its often way loud. It needs to be put back into the drumset more often. By thinking about calibrated levels I can now say things like, hey, try a mix at 65 db in mono on a small speaker and have fun!
I am a little concerned as to the fact that some reading this thread here are not finding exactly what 83 db SPL and the K ref going on inside your DAW's is all about. But as papa says and its so true, just have the SPL meter on hand, set to the C weighting and keep it at that level no matter what you are doing and you will always be listening at a calibrated level.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 4:33 PM
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I found the levels of the pink noise quite loud.
But, I have just played back the mastered song of mine which Jose listened to, speciifically from about 9 minutes where it is a bit hot, put the SPL meter into position and adjusted the volume for 86db.
This is the interesting bit - that's more or less the level that I've been monitoring but the fader level was a good 6db below the levels I'd already marked for K-12, K-14 & K-20.
So this indicates, to me, I should back off a bit on the bus compression and get the RMS down a bit. Not bothered about peaks - at no point do I ever get close to clipping - the pre-mastered song peaks at about -4.5 during the loudest part of the song.
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 5:14 PM
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liv4ree
2. When I got my left and right monitors at 80db each, I looked at the volume knob and realized that the volume knob on the right monitor was set lower than the volume knob on the left. (interesting)
Does this all seem right to you guys?
Each room is different, so how much the volume knob's position varies among the two speakers will depend on various factors like room acoustics, speaker placement, etc. The important thing is for the same SPL to reach both your ears from the L and R in order to get a correct stereo image. Just know I'm not an expert on this, so I'm only making assumptions. Mine personally are very close to the same position (slightly different though), but this could be because I may have my speakers closer to me than yours (I'm about 3 or 4 feet away from them). Not sure if this answers anything or makes you wonder even more, but that would be my believe on what's going on. HTH
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 5:29 PM
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Bristol_Jonesey
I found the levels of the pink noise quite loud.
But, I have just played back the mastered song of mine which Jose listened to, specifically from about 9 minutes where it is a bit hot, put the SPL meter into position and adjusted the volume for 86db.
This is the interesting bit - that's more or less the level that I've been monitoring but the fader level was a good 6db below the levels I'd already marked for K-12, K-14 & K-20.
So this indicates, to me, I should back off a bit on the bus compression and get the RMS down a bit. Not bothered about peaks - at no point do I ever get close to clipping - the pre-mastered song peaks at about -4.5 during the loudest part of the song.
Keep in mind that the loudest parts of the song may go over 0dB RMS on the K-meters (or over 86dB SPL on your monitoring environment). In fact, it is common for it to go over on the loud parts by as much as 4dB RMS, at which point you start touching the red part of the K-meters. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that your mix was pretty close to the mark (off by about 2dB), so you don't have to back down much. That's unless you wanna go for K-14, but that may be too low compared to today's standard. Don't go by the pink noise because that's not how music behaves. The pink noise is good to calibrate your monitors but that's all. That's why I suggest you listen to music found on the Honor Roll list so that you get the feel of what to go for. HTH
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drewfx1
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 6:30 PM
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Jose7822
mike_mccue
"Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away."
Can you elaborate?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to comment on this. I believe Jeff misunderstood Bob Katz. AFAIK, what Bob says is that smaller rooms with close loud speakers will have to be turned down compared to a bigger room with loud speaker placed farther away in order to produce the same SPL level. At least that's what makes sense to me.
I went back and took a look at his book, because that statement seemed odd to me as well. He referenced an earlier chapter when he made that statement and, best as I can tell, the relevant quote from that chapter (14) is: If the monitor control is the key, how do we know what position to set it before mastering? Everyone's room is slightly different, and room volume, loudspeaker placement, transient response, and even individual sensitivity at a given time of day affect the apparent loudness of a monitor system, even when identically calibrated. (Mastering Audio, pg. 174) He then tells a story about how identically calibrated monitors with better transient response sounded 2dB louder to him. So I suspect it may have to do with the possibility of transients being more emphasized on closer monitors in smaller rooms (maybe a bigger difference in level between direct and reflected sound?). IOW, average SPL's are equal, but the peaks are more apparent, making it seem louder. drewfx
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 6:54 PM
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Jeff, & Jose, my KRK 8's are 42" from my face. They are sitting on my desk, not stands so I'm kind of stuck wth 42" being the furthest I can get from them, and still comfortably reach my mixer. One strange, hard to verbalize question that I have about this. Was I right about setting my Motu interface, and faders to 0? In order to reach the 80db My speaker volume controls are set at Left: -10 and rigt -20. I just pulled up a mix with the blue cat meter as the last plug on my master I had a peak of -2 and an RMS of -10. Is this considered decent? or do I need to work my mix to get the RMS higher vs. the peak level? I'm not referingto whether or not I'm sending the mix out for mastering. I'm refering to just the peak vs. rms. Another thing I noticed is that when setting your pink noise level to 80 db for an overall 83db one needs to keep in mind that when your mixing and you add say compression you are now going to potentially increase your listening/mixing level. So papa's idea about keeping your spl meter handy is a good one. By the way Jeff, my ears were also abused throughout the years, but 83db is a sweet leel. I noticed much less fatigue.
post edited by liv4ree - February 23, 10 6:59 PM
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papa2005
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 7:03 PM
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WIth an RMS of -10 and peaks at -2 you are in the ballpark...Compare your mix with a similar song from a commercial CD & see how it stacks up as far as perceived loudness.
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 8:37 PM
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liv4ree
Jeff, & Jose, my KRK 8's are 42" from my face. They are sitting on my desk, not stands so I'm kind of stuck wth 42" being the furthest I can get from them, and still comfortably reach my mixer.
One strange, hard to verbalize question that I have about this. Was I right about setting my Motu interface, and faders to 0? In order to reach the 80db My speaker volume controls are set at Left: -10 and rigt -20.
I just pulled up a mix with the blue cat meter as the last plug on my master I had a peak of -2 and an RMS of -10. Is this considered decent? or do I need to work my mix to get the RMS higher vs. the peak level? I'm not referingto whether or not I'm sending the mix out for mastering. I'm refering to just the peak vs. rms.
Another thing I noticed is that when setting your pink noise level to 80 db for an overall 83db one needs to keep in mind that when your mixing and you add say compression you are now going to potentially increase your listening/mixing level. So papa's idea about keeping your spl meter handy is a good one.
By the way Jeff, my ears were also abused throughout the years, but 83db is a sweet leel. I noticed much less fatigue.
That's hot, especially for an un-mastered mix. That means you already compressed it to the point where the mastering process can only do so much when it comes to compression or limiting. You basically mixed and mastered the project in one step. It all depends on what you consider important. Is it important to you that the mix competes with the rest of what's out there, or is it more important to maintain as much transient information (and thus punch) as possible even if it means having a not so hot mix? That's something only you, or your client can decide. Now, what you're asking is what's a suitable crest factor (which is the difference between RMS and PEAK levels)? It depends on the style of music and how it was recorded. Usually, you want to end up with a mix that's around -20dB to -18dB RMS (around -24dB RMS if you're using Sonar's meters), with PEAK levels between -6dB and -3dB. The final, mastered product, is based on the K-System level you go for. If you go for K-12, then that means your peaks will be close to 0dB FS (I personally go for -0.3dB FS) and and average of 12dB RMS. That gives you a crest factor of 12dB for transients. Going higher than this will make the song louder, but it also kills transients and thus punch is lost even though it seems opposite. Just compare a slammed song with the same song with K-12 and audition them at the same perceived SPL. You should notice that the K-12 song breathes better and has more punch than the slammed one. Sure you have to bring the K-12 mix up, but isn't that why we have a volume knob for? The Loudness War is a psychological one. People use that as a way to make their mixes sound punchier when they're not. It's very seductive too, I'll give them that. Anywho, this is where things start getting subjective and this is a choice only you can make (or your client). HTH
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 9:02 PM
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Thanks Jose. The levels that I gave you is a mix of my wifes. It isn't something that we'll be sending out for mastering as it's a cover tune.
Thanks for the valuable information. I have another question (I'm full of them). Papa mentioned listening to a commercial cd of something similar to what I'm mixing.
Is there a huge difference between using a tune from a cd to compare vs. using an mp3 to compare? Will an mp3 of a song show the same levels as the cd? My next question is, how do you get your RMS level so much higher than your peak?
Above you stated -0.3 db peak and 12dbs peak is what you go for. I don't believe I've ever had my RMS higher than my peak.
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 11:33 PM
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liv4ree
Thanks Jose. The levels that I gave you is a mix of my wifes. It isn't something that we'll be sending out for mastering as it's a cover tune.
Thanks for the valuable information. I have another question (I'm full of them). Papa mentioned listening to a commercial cd of something similar to what I'm mixing.
Is there a huge difference between using a tune from a cd to compare vs. using an mp3 to compare? Will an mp3 of a song show the same levels as the cd? My next question is, how do you get your RMS level so much higher than your peak?
Above you stated -0.3 db peak and 12dbs peak is what you go for. I don't believe I've ever had my RMS higher than my peak.
I don't believe there's a difference between MP3 and Wave files level-wise. I use Wave files for my references, so I can't vouche for MP3. As far as the PEAK and RMS levels, you misread my post. If you go back you will notice I said -0.3dB FS PEAK and -12dB FS RMS. It would be impossible to have your RMS higher than your peaks. HTH
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 24, 10 5:11 AM
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I think this is actually beginning to sink in.
Well explained everyone (Jose/Jeff/Mike/Tarsier)
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 24, 10 11:58 AM
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