Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2

fitzj


Does anyone know how to configure the Audio meter settings  under the options menu to accommodate K-System -20 metering. Not sure what I can do in Sonar.
Already configured  on Rme Fireface 800.

Sonar doesn't yet have any K-metering system internally (wish it did, but oh well).
You can get Voxengo's SPAN (it's free) or go for one of the not-free products out there.
I use Nugen's Visualizer on my Master Bus always, so I can see the whole picture, or when I solo a track see just that, etc.
 
Span is quite good even though it's free, btw.
 
 

Sonar cannot do K system metering by itself. I put in some time the other day looking into Sonar's meter options.

With the K system and any of the three ref levels eg -20 or -14 or -12 the idea of the metering is that when the digital system is at one level eg -14 then the meters on your stereo buss need to be showing something completely different. They need to be RMS and they need to be showing 0db VU. So if we had a ref of -14db FS playing back on a track then the track meters need to say -14 and the Masterbuss meters also should be at -14 but if you had a K Sytem plugin for example then that should be showing 0db VU with 14 db of headroom above that.

This link to Blue Cat shows the product that would be very good and its not too expensive.

http://www.bluecataudio.c...Product_DPeakMeterPro/

John suggested I look into the Sonar meters a bit more deeply and despite the many adjustments they offer they just cannot do this. Another reason why external VU meters are also good. If they use CPU horsepower to do rms then another good reason to offload that job to something external. Plus they can be set to show 0db VU while the digital system is operating at some other K ref level.

It isn't necessary to have special meters to use the k-system. That's just a visual aid.

Play back some dense music or test tones and set the master volume so that your meters hover around -14db. Then place an SPL meter at the mix position and adjust the volume on your speakers so it reads 83dbSPL per side (or 85dbSPL in the middle with both playing a mono signal).

Now from here on out, always shoot for about -14db on your main bus' RMS meters. Congratulations, you're using the K-14 standard!

Jeff/Bit:

I do what bit suggests and I use Voxengo and Izotope's K-System.  I'm not sure that I agree that it's a work around, it's more to me like a baseline for what BK calls monitor position.  You can accomplish the repeatable results regardless of what meter system you use.

-D

What's wrong with DigiCheck?

'Digicheck' is great but you can only use it if you have an RME interface. Bits post is only a good take on using existing functions within Sonar. What I am suggesting is getting a qood quality plug in to give a proper K system reference and visual reference at that. I really like seeing an rms response around 0db while the system is actually at -12 or -14 or -20 even. (my point here is that looking at digital meter around -14 and pretending to be rms is not the same as looking at a real quality VU meter around zero)

Also if you have a proper 0db visual reference (and the system may be at -14) while tracking for example, it makes setting track levels also much easier. Just get the source to make a sound and adjust for 0db on the masterbuss. Keeping an eye on the peak indicators of the tracks too of course for any fast transient stuff.

But one can only hope in a plugin that you will get a similar rms response as you would a meter. You wont know that unless you make the plunge which seems like a good idea. I will buy it and report in on how it performs.

I know some of you wonder about the value of good VU meters but yesterday I was doing a big Pink Floyd type mix for a local band and as I got closer to the final mix I noticed how the VU's were responding in the loud bits. They were overall moving OK but jumping around a bit and not looking quite like what I was expecting. But after a few changes and minor modifications I noticed that although the mix hardly changed the VU's were moving in a completely different way and much better and smoother, they stopped jumping around and had a much more fluid motion to them. This is the type of stuff that I find good VU's handy for. But I am quite excited about hunting down some sort of digital equivalent and I am convinced now that it is out there. (BTW I would have not picked that strange ballistic behaviour using Dave's approach with a digital meter around -14, compared to the VU meter around zero db)

Ozone 4 is also a great example but you have to get the mastering plugins as well to get the metering but I am sure the metering only is an option even if its from another company like Blue Cat. They have had some very good reviews on their other plugins so I am hopeful their meter will also be very good.

bitflipper


It isn't necessary to have special meters to use the k-system. That's just a visual aid.

Play back some dense music or test tones and set the master volume so that your meters hover around -14db. Then place an SPL meter at the mix position and adjust the volume on your speakers so it reads 83dbSPL per side (or 85dbSPL in the middle with both playing a mono signal).

Now from here on out, always shoot for about -14db on your main bus' RMS meters. Congratulations, you're using the K-14 standard!

Bit...I thought it was 1M from the speakers???

Jeff I enjoy reading you because you come from much the same perspective as I do. The trouble is its hard to comment on your post often because I often agree with them.

Bit has a knack of being succinct and accurate. That is hard to do. 

by the way thks cause i discovered nugen in this thread ...great plugins ... can't believe the great bang for the buck ....pinguin is the prce of a great river preamp !!

well was about to get the brainworx ...mmm gotta see that

Hi guys.
I tested the -20 pink noise that Bob Katz has on his website with Nugen and Blue cat. Its seems Blue Cat is pretty accurate.
I had nugen at rms but nugen is slightly out with its measurements. Could someone else who has both these plugins perhaps run a test and see. Maybe I am doing something wrong, I would presume the test file is 100% that Bob supplies.

Jose sorry I did not see the OP did in fact have the RME and hence Digicheck. So yes he already has it but it might be handy in Sonar without having to switch to the software to see it.

fitzj A few things about levels. Firstly when setting up levels in the digital system it is better to use sinewaves eg 400 Hz or 1000Hz and you need a program like Adobe Audition (or similar) to make the tones at exactly the right level. (you need three levels -12, -14 and -20) * Note:  When a program like Adobe Audition makes a ref lev eg -14 db FS it is making the very peaks of the sinewave to be at -14 db. Sonar will show this as -17db because it is actually taking a true RMS calculation of that signal which is 3 db lower than the peak level.

The Bob Katz website download for the pink noise says -20 df FS, it is also uncorrected. (full range)  In his book he talks about using band limited pink noise. The main thing about the pink noise is to calibrate the monitor gain more rather than set up exact levels inside the system. Although it can be used as a reference level I find tones a bit better in this regard. Also if you have real VU meters often the wideband pink noise is a bit out compared to the tones. (in my case it is only about -1db so I am assuming that my VU meters are reasonable in thier response)

So the tones all work fine for calibrating levels and the Blue Cat should read O db when either the -12 or -14 or -20 waves are selected and the correct range is selected as well of course. The pink noise will also read -23db (remember Sonar meters are out by 3db due to the way they are calculating their indicated level) but the Blue Cat will show 0db VU

Use the noise (now band limited from 500 to 2000 Hz) The band limited pink noise avoids some room problems but the level of the test signal will drop by about 8 db and you have to make this gain up to get back to your ref level. He suggests doing one speaker at a time too and they should be about 83 db SPL each. When both monitors are on you get about 86 db SPL in the room which is perfect.

Learn to love this calibrated monitor level. It is just great. It is one thing to calibrate your system but even better to calibrate your monitors too.

Zo I used to have the V Studio system but mine was sold by Roland but while I had it I had my external VU's connected up permanently to one of the headphone outputs and calibrated for K system levels so I understand you missing the RME digicheck system. I think you need some sort of K system monitoring and I think the Blue Cat will be the go. I am hoping fitzj is off doing a test as we speak here to confirm how the Blue Cat pans out.

I operate at all three reference levels depending on the job. For very high quality mixes that are going out to be mastered I use the -20db ref. But for a lot of work I find the -14db a great ref level as well.

I am keen on the Blue Cat because I have to recalibrate everytime I change ref level and that can be a bit of a pain. But the BlueCat will make that easier and faster. The real thing for me is how well not only do the levels on the BlueCat and VU's match up but also how the ballistics of both compare.

fitzj Ok I have done some tests and finally figured this all out. And thanks to you fitzj for bringing this to light.
The Bob Katz file is fine and without the filter the level is correct at -20db FS. (Sonar meters are showing -23db as Tarsier correctly points out) The reason I got an error was due to the fact that in Sonar the meter settings are completely independant in Track View and Console View. I wonder if many know about that! In Track View you use the settings at the top of the page on the meter icon. You can choose RMS or peak for both tracks and busses. But in Console view the meter settings can be set at the left under the little volume icon pull down menu. Mine were incorrectly set in Console view. I was wondering why I got different meter readings in the two views. (My track view was in peak mode and hence about 8db higher) And the sine wave tones are still best for all this. But once I got all those set then the Bob Katz file worked fine and showed -20 (-23db Sonar) and from your shots of the Blue Cat that shows 0db which is also correct.

Now you may be wondering where do you use the band limited pink noise and the answer to that I am sure is when you are actually calibrating the monitor gain in your room. If you play a sinewave tone at say -20db and the Track and Buss levels are all correct but you set the SPL in the room to 83db PSL then you will find the SPL meter will show that level even at a fairly low volume and music wont sound that loud. Where the band limited pink noise comes in is after you get all your reference levels OK just switch in the filter at the last minute (and correct the gain) in order to set your monitor level in the room. The filter avoids the wrong selection of A or C weighting on your SPL, it does not make much difference. Now you will find that full range music will sound just about right (providing its rms level is at the cal system level you have chosen)

The filter thing is still important but its more about getting the level more correct in the room. Sine wave tones create varied readings on the SPL meter and hence they are not that accurate. So the band limited pink noise is the go. (for cheaper SPL meters) He says in Chapter 15 of his book that you can use the full range pink noise for calibrating room level but you need a one octave analyser.