Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 3:02 AM
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Thrillington, As already mentioned in this thread, you place your SPL meter in the listening position with the speakers forming a equilateral triangle with your head as shown in the image below:  Then play the pink noise file from the Bob Katz site until you get 83dB SPL (with the SPL meter set to "C Weighted" and "Slow" response) from each speaker. Together, the combination of both speakers should register 86dB SPL on the SPL meter. It's that simple :-) The reason why no speaker has 86dB SPL marked in their volume dial is because SPL varies with distance. There's no way for the speaker manufacturer to know how close (or how far) you'll be placing your speakers from the listening position. This is why you are always required to calibrate your speakers and never move them. If you do, you need to re-calibrate them. The idea here is to have the same sound pressure level reaching both ears to maintain an even stereo image. As Jeff explained, 86dB SPL was chosen in the video industry as the standard because that's the loudest level we can monitor for long periods of time without damaging our ears (among other reasons). But you can certainly change that and monitor at a softer volume level (if you want to) as long as both speaker together add ~3dB SPL. For example, if you find that 86dB SPL is too loud, you can calibrate to 78dB SPL with the sum of both speakers giving you 81dB SPL. HTH
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 3:46 AM
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Pink noise at -20db rms spl playing at 86db is too much for my ears during testing. Music is not too bad at that level its passable.
I would suggest wearing ear protection doing these tests.
Pink noise at 86db from both speakers using the k-12 is extremely loud.
As Jose mentioned revert back to having both speak at 81db is better if you find it too loud at 86db.
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 7:27 AM
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" When both monitors come on you get about a 3 db extra in SPL so for stereo it is around 86 db SPL."
Technically speaking... isn't the 3dB boost more likely to occur when the speakers are placed immediately adjacent?
Which is a compromise of sorts because you can't get them to sit at the same exact point?
That's why old school discos often use the mono stack... to get a full 3dB boost for the dancers.
Video uses 86dBSPL as a standard?
I'm more familiar with the Dolby 83dBSPL standard.
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 7:46 AM
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I've been following this thread, and have to say that I'm so lost it isn't funny. I bought Blue Cat's digital peak meter pro, and an spl meter. From there I'm lost.
Jeff, could you do a step by step for me on how to perform this calibration?
One of the things that's confusing me is, I make the level adjustments via the vol control on the back of my krk 8's. But what do youset the master fader too? Thanks for your help
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 7:58 AM
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The Master Out in SONAR is still digital... if you turn that down you are losing bits on your data stream.
The idea is to control the analog amplification of your playback system. How you do that depends on your system config.
For example you might simply turn the volume knob on an amp. Or perhaps the analog output level control of your audio I/O hardware (although those with DSP controls are sometimes unclear as to what they are controlling... in other words very few Audio I/O rigs have a traditional potentiometer on the output... most use some sort of digitally controlled VCA circuirt.) Many powered speakers also have level adjustments. Some people place dedicated level control (and routing) hardware in between the Audio I/O and powered speakers. Some folks use a mixer and have the same sort of controls.
The "system" ends up seeming a lot more complicated than it is... because it takes a very simple idea and systematically makes it complicated.
best,
mike
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 3:02 PM
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mike_mccue
" When both monitors come on you get about a 3 db extra in SPL so for stereo it is around 86 db SPL."
Technically speaking... isn't the 3dB boost more likely to occur when the speakers are placed immediately adjacent?
Which is a compromise of sorts because you can't get them to sit at the same exact point?
That's why old school discos often use the mono stack... to get a full 3dB boost for the dancers.
Video uses 86dBSPL as a standard?
I'm more familiar with the Dolby 83dBSPL standard.
If you don't get the 3dB boost then it means your speakers are not correlated, which will affect the stereo image. That's why we use the equilateral triangle placement technique. Perhaps this technique has a limit as distance increases (maybe due to the room getting in the way?). By the way, you are right and the Dolby Digital standard is 83dB SPL, not 86dB SPL. I don't know why Bob Katz changed it, but I think he did mention it somewhere (I just can't remember now). In any case, I too think 86dB is kinda loud, especially since the music will undoubtly go higher than that at the forte and fortissimo points. He does recommend to make it lower if you find 86dB SPL too loud (I remember reading that). Take care Mike!
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 3:12 PM
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Here is my set up.
Focusrite twin track pro > Motu 896HD > Sonar 8.5 > Mackie Control Pro > KRK Rokit 8's (powered)
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Thrillington
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 3:39 PM
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I think i read Ebert saying the best place to watch movies was the width of the screeen back, dead centre . Assuming the speakers were directly to the sides of the screen, this would corroborate the equalateral tri method. Until today, I never realized Ebert was talking with respect to the sound.
post edited by Thrillington - February 17, 10 7:52 PM
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 6:18 PM
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I am uploading a .cwp and .cwb of my test files. Could someone put them on a server so all users can have access as I only can leave the ftp option available for the next 24 hours. The username in midi and the password is midi. Hope this helps. ftp://193.95.170.78
post edited by fitzj - February 17, 10 6:19 PM
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 8:16 PM
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 9:45 PM
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Fitzj, the only file that I wasable to save was the K-System -12-14-20.cwp The others came up blank. Jose, I downloaded the pink noise wave file. Can someone walk me thru this? Thanks
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 17, 10 11:40 PM
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STEPS TO CALIBRATE YOUR MONITORS First you'll need: - The Bob Katz Pink Noise wave file. - An SPL meter. 1- Set your monitor speakers in an equilateral triangle as shown in the image I posted above (Post #91). Make sure the tweeters are at ear level and pointing towards them. 2- Open Sonar and import the Pink Noise file into an empty project. All faders need to be at unity gain (0dB). Your hardware (audio interface, mixer, etc) also needs to be set at unity gain. However, you will want to lower the volume of your speaker monitors to maximum attenuation before you begin. 3- For ease, enable looping on the Pink Noise file so it repeats indefinitely. 4- Now place your SPL meter at ear level in the listening position. SPL meters have omni directional mics so I just placed it pointing forward. That way I didn't have to move it once placed, which should give more accurate results. Set the SPL meter to "C Weighted" and "Slow" response. You may also have to adjust the dynamic range of the meter (i.e. 50dB - 90dB SPL) based on the target SPL, if applicable. 5- Play the project with the Pink Noise file and start raising the volume of one of your speakers until it reaches the target SPL minus 3dB. For example, if you want the overall volume to be 83dB SPL (the Dolby Digital standard) then each speaker should read 80dB SPL individually. Together, your SPL meter should read 83dB SPL. It'll not be perfect, so just try to get it in the ballpark +/- 1dB. Once set, do NOT touch this again! Only control the volume from the master volume control (not directly from the speakers). If you don't have a master volume control (i.e. a mixer, BIG knob, or what-have-you), then you need to get one. The result should be K-20 = 83dB SPL. 6- To get the other K's, just lower the volume of your monitoring environment (the hardware, not the software) by the necessary amount. For example, to get K-14, just lower the master volume control until the SPL meter reads 77dB SPL (or 6dB lower than the target SPL). Mark this position as K-14 on your master volume control. For K-12 you have to lower it by 8dB from K-20. Alternatively, you can mark each dB up/down from K-20 as shown below (that's up to you):  In the above image, 0 = K-20; -6 = K-14; -8 = K-12. Notice there's a +2 at the top (where 0dB should be). That's for older recordings, but this is not necessary as even K-20 is extra soft compared to most commercial music today. The idea of the K-System is to lower the monitoring volume according to the RMS value of the music you're listening to in order to always keep it at a steady SPL. It is a good idea to set your Bus meters to RMS (or RMS+PEAK) so that you can see the RMS value of the piece you're working on and adjust your monitoring accordingly. Well that's basically how you do it. Hope this helps! EDIT: Love the forum software :-S
post edited by Jose7822 - February 18, 10 2:12 PM
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 3:30 AM
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Use a package like filezilla as the ftp client. I find using windows url option does not always work correctly, it always keeps asking for the password.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 4:23 AM
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Jose's post is a good one and simplifies the process of calibrating monitor gain. This method used the full range pink noise and if you go for the required level at a C weighting you are going to be very close. I thought it was 83 db per speaker and a total of 86 db in the room but Jose has gone for a total 83 db in the room and that is a good too. Bob mentions in his book that music was considered at 85 db SPL for a while which is closer to my 86 db SPL. I dont mind it being a tad louder. I have metioned the band limited pink noise and as Bob also says it just avoids any room problems in the low end etc. You can make it with the Sonitis EQ with bands 1 and 6 being used and set for steep filtering and set to 500 and 2K. But the filter drops the signal by about 8 db so you have to pick it up again to get back to your -20 db on your main stereo buss. I have found with either the band limited pink noise or just the straight full range pink noise then both seem to very close on the SPL meter. As long as you have got your SPL meter in hand, you can always check your monitoring level quickly and easily by just going for a 83 to 85 db SPL C weighting while the music is playing. Loud peaks might just go above it, by not by much or for long. What do you think of the volume level though? How do people feel about how loud (or not so loud) it is in the room. I love it. It is very nice volume. It forces you to open up and listen a bit harder too. PS I check some mixes at 65 db SPL on a small mono speaker. You gotta love that! Its not easy. But its the king for getting a big complex mixes perfect. You just don't hear the bass and reverbs so much, but when you are back on 85 db SPL or so then you can. And when you go back up to that listening volume you are rewarded with a sensationally balanced mix. Nothing like a killer blast at 100 db or so just to make sure either! And fitzj there was an error in my post #58. I said A weighting instead of C for the music check hence the music would have been about 6 or 7 db louder than the correct calibrated level hence you thinking it may have been loud. My fault there, very sorry. I have edited my post #58 now but it is basically the same as Jose's post above. I am only referring to the band limited noise as a way to avoid low frequency errors that may be in your environment but it is not essential.
post edited by Jeff Evans - February 18, 10 4:58 AM
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 5:16 AM
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You can make it with the Sonitis EQ with bands 1 and 6 being used and set for steep filtering and set to 500 and 2K. But the filter drops the signal by about 8 db so you have to pick it up again to get back to your -20 db on your main stereo buss. I have found with either the band limited pink noise or just the straight full range pink noise then both seem to very close on the SPL meter.
Jeff
I calibrate the speakers at 83 single speaker or 86 double speakers, are you then saying put in the filter on the master bus, this will reduce the level by 8db.
Take a measurement with the filter in place and turn up your speakers to 83db single again and 86 double
I presume you would have to leave the filter in place on your master buss all the time.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 6:23 AM
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Hi fitzj, if the filter is put into place and the signal drops by 8 db and then you make up that gain again as you say to get -20db on the masterbuss again, (use trim at the top or output gain on the EQ) then take the measurement as normal. Because you have just added 8 db of gain to the filter, the reading on the SPL meter should be the same as for the full range pink noise. It just avoids any issues with bottom end in your room and the reading might be just a bit more accurate with the filtered version. But mostly the same. It does show if your room has issues in the low end if the two readings were out by a lot.
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liv4ree
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 7:23 AM
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Thanks Jose. This was a great explanation of how to do this. Thanks to all.
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 7:39 AM
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Jeff that is a very clever method for seeing how your room is behaving.
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tarsier
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 10:09 AM
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I think i read Ebert saying the best place to watch movies was the width of the screeen back, dead centre . Assuming the speakers were directly to the sides of the screen, this would corroborate the equalateral tri method. Not quite. That would put you a bit further back than equilateral triangle positioning would put you--resulting in the speakers being a bit closer than +/- 30 degrees. And actually for my own preference I like the speakers a bit wider, closer to +/- 40 degrees. Regarding 83 dB SPL, I find that too loud as well. I did a sound level measurement and I'm most comfortable mixing at around 77 dB SPL. I'll turn it up to around 80 dB for final listening check. Maybe that's because I'm using speakers that have a reputation for sounding "forward". So I'm just a freak. I like my speakers wider and sound quieter than "standard".
post edited by tarsier - February 18, 10 10:13 AM
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Jose7822
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 2:13 PM
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Just wanted to point out that I added a little paragraph at the bottom of the image in my previous post.
Take care!
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 3:30 PM
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Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away. In many mastering suites the main monitors are a bit further away compared to many of our setups where they are closer. So to tarsier there is nothing wrong with altering your ref levals a bit. And if your monitors are forward as you say then that may definately contribute. This is a difference between listening to pink noise and music. My Mackie HR 824's are warmer sound with less mid range activity and a smoother low end so they might sound a little quieter. I am a litle further from them too but I like it. And to Jose that is a good addition to your post. And remember that as Sonar reads a true rms value and not the value of the peaks of the sinewave the Sonar rms meters will indicate 3db lower than K ref level. So if you are working at a K 14 standard then the rms value should be around -17 db. (or around -23 db for -20) The Sonar peak + rms option is quite good as it shows both. Bit is right, you can effectively do all this in Sonar but I still think an external VU or a plugin that shows 0 is also cool. The problem is that if you are looking at something around -17 db, it is harder (because you are way down on a meter scale) compared to the BlueCat meter that is giving you a nice full scale deflection rms reading hovering around 0 db instead. (with +14 db on the other side) fitzj asked me about my test setup so here it is. One (stereo) Track I have a sinewave tone at -20 db FS followed by the Bob Katz ref pink noise full range file at -20 db. On Track 2 after this, is a copy of the pink noise file. On track 2 however I have inserted the band limited filter and added about 8 db of gain. After that on the first track again is music that has been tracked and mixed at ref level of K -20. So by jumping around in the arrangement you can perform various measurements and listen to the music track to confirm. The only plugin on the masterbuss is the BlueCat meter. The sinewave, full range pink noise and band limited noise all show 0 db rms on the BlueCat. Sonar is showing -23 db rms on the master as it should. (in rms + peak mode) I also have external VU's and they are calibrated to read 0 db VU as well. I find that my VU's and the BlueCat are in agreement all the time. (* Note: I did a frequency response of my VU's the other day and they were flat to well over 16 Khz!) I have set for 85 or 85 db SPL on a Radio Shack meter. I have a high quality reference microphone and the Behringer UltraCurve Pro analyser. It can perform some fairly accurate measurements. It agrees with the Radio Shack meter very closely for those who might be wondering about the accuracy of the RS meter. The music just peaks 86 db SPL C Weighting. Love this level!
post edited by Jeff Evans - February 18, 10 6:00 PM
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Melvin J.
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 9:20 PM
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If anyone is wondering, Blue Cat released x64 versions of their Digital Peak Meter Pro 3. I downloaded it and it's working great here. I feel it's a very good deal at $59.00.
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 9:56 PM
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"Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away."
Can you elaborate?
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Zo
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 10:06 PM
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db will be the same but at a lower position of the volume knobs of you control !
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 18, 10 11:53 PM
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"Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away." Mike I am quoting Bob Katz from his book here. I am sure the differences here would not be great but there must be something in the proximity of the speakers to the listener. There might just be a slight impression that the closer monitors are a little louder.
Also take someone like tarsier. He say his monitors have a very forward sound and they might be quite prominent in the mid range for example. Yet both our speakers might give a very close result with pink noise and setting the level to say 83 db SPL but on music his might sound quite different to mine just due to the differences of our monitors. That is what I mean by pink noise being one thing and music another.
I have set up a permanent mike now right over my speakers and got it connected to the Behringer Ultra Curve Pro set for SPL measurement mode.
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 19, 10 4:16 AM
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Just looking a the huge amount of people who are following this topic, perhaps Sonar could do something in the future and address the issue going forward with the k-system.
I feel many would like it and I cannot see it costing very much to do if a plugin for $59 dollars already has it.
What do you say Cakewalk???
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 6:26 AM
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I’ve been following this thread with some interest over the last couple of months, and as a result I’ve got myself a Radio Shack SPL meter and a copy of the latest Voxengo Span.
A couple of question spring to mind.
Is the K-system geared more towards un-mastered material, i.e. should I be inserting the plug on my “pre-master” bus, before any sort of loudening or limiting?
In other words, should I be attempting to achieve a level of K-14 before applying any sort of “mastering”
Running the pink noise file through last night, I was gobsmacked at how loud K-14 is! I would love to mix at this level but at that volume, it’s clearly audible throughout the rest of the house, and I suspect it’s also audible to my unsympathetic neighbours.
In addition to Span, I’ve also got the T-Racks3 metering plug. Does anyone have any experience with this plug?
It seems to offer a similar set of features as Span, though the UI is quite small and makes accurate reading a bit difficult.
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fitzj
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 7:58 AM
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It was certainly a very interesting post the guys really explained the k-system very well. The article by Bob katz is difficult to understand.
Download the demo of the Blue Cat pro meter put it on the master bus and then run the -20 rms pink noise file from bobs site. Set the meter in Blue Cat at K-20. Its a preset.
You should see the RMS hovering at 0 on the meter within blue cat.
The blue cat works 100%.
So try any other meter plugins and see if you get similar reading. I believe the span is out, by how much I don't know perhaps I'm wrong.
If they are reading RMS on the meter at 0 then they are ok.
I believe Jeff says you can create a K -6 for Mastering. You just take the -20 pink noise file and add gain of 14db to it.
They should all read 83 on single speakers or 86 on double.
As Jose said you can bring this back to 81 or 79 per single speaker if you find its too loud. Mark your vol for your speaks with stickers showing the different k system setting.
Hope this helps.
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 8:01 AM
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Bristol,
The whole idea is to monitor at consistent levels.
That is it.
The K system as a system is a system for predicting where you will set your level controls to maintain a constant monitoring level.
It may occur to you that you can simply play anything you want, adjust the level so that it "averages" at the SoundPressureLevel you wish to maintain.
And you are done.
That leaves you lots of extra time to contemplate whether Dark Side of the Moon is k-14 or k-16?
Once you have that level set for listening to finished mixes you are familiar with you may use that as a reference for comparison while you anticipate how your future mixes will come together.
In the history of Science there have been very few instances that one has named a repeatable experiment or observation after them selves.
Mr. Katz is a stand out in that regard.
Jeff,
re:
""Smaller rooms and closer loudspeakers will produce a louder sound for the same measured SPL from a speaker system that is further away." Mike I am quoting Bob Katz from his book here."
Have you thought to ask why that is? I imagine the notion of the idea is that a SPL meter (with it's choices of traditional weighted curves) can not follow our "human curve weighting" precisely or differentiate between direct or reflected energy the way our brain can. Never the less it seems that this sort of statement should be accompanied by a qualified explanation so that it doesn't transcend into a full blown audio myth.
all the best,
mike
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Getting the K-system working in Sonar 8.5.2
February 23, 10 8:27 AM
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Another way to look at it is the concept of music having peak and an rms value. K 20 puts the rms down around -20 but there is 20 db of headroom above that. K 14 has the rms value around - 14 db (with 14 db of peak headroom above that) hence 6 db louder (only on the CD) than K 20 and K 12 is rms around - 12 and only 12 db of peak head room. K 12 being the loudest if you like on a CD. Mike is correct in terms of no matter which K system you choose the sound level in the room is always the same, the difference is the transient sound of K 20 will be the best. Now any mastered music will have to be lowered by an amount to keep those meters showing still around 0db and the room should also be at the same SPL. It is this amount of difference that you need to achieve if your mastered material is to compete with commercial material. Anything above K 12 does not really exist as far as K system is concerend but anything above K 12, I suppose is considered mastering. Now I choose a K 6 level which brings the music up another 6 db from K 12 but still but now only has 6 db of peak headroom. This still may not be as loud as the Black Eyed Peas or a Madonna CD but it is going to be up there though. I dont even like getting an rms value up to -6 db even as it is pushing things a bit. And there are those who go for rms levels being around -1 or -2 db only and that is why those CD's are so loud but there are no transients to speak of. The Span meters are showing peak which is sort of not helpful. The Sonar meters are all ready showing peaks anyway. Blue Cat is good because they show around 0 db and represent and behave like an rms VU meter. The meter next to that is also showing peaks. Mike I am only quoting Bob about the speakers sounding and I am only imagining he meant a little louder when they are closer. Might just be due to the fact you are closer to them and you might be hearing a slight increase in detail. With all the excitement of the 8.5.3 update I thought the K system thread had disappeared long far down and may have died and I was on worried but I am very happy some poeple are still thinking about it. It is actually a little more important even than Audio Snap 
post edited by Jeff Evans - February 23, 10 8:39 AM
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