Jeff Evans


'Digicheck' is great but you can only use it if you have an RME interface. Bits post is only a good take on using existing functions within Sonar. What I am suggesting is getting a qood quality plug in to give a proper K system reference and visual reference at that. I really like seeing an rms response around 0db while the system is actually at -12 or -14 or -20 even. (my point here is that looking at digital meter around -14 and pretending to be rms is not the same as looking at a real quality VU meter around zero)

Also if you have a proper 0db visual reference (and the system may be at -14) while tracking for example, it makes setting track levels also much easier. Just get the source to make a sound and adjust for 0db on the masterbuss. Keeping an eye on the peak indicators of the tracks too of course for any fast transient stuff.

But one can only hope in a plugin that you will get a similar rms response as you would a meter. You wont know that unless you make the plunge which seems like a good idea. I will buy it and report in on how it performs.

I know some of you wonder about the value of good VU meters but yesterday I was doing a big Pink Floyd type mix for a local band and as I got closer to the final mix I noticed how the VU's were responding in the loud bits. They were overall moving OK but jumping around a bit and not looking quite like what I was expecting. But after a few changes and minor modifications I noticed that although the mix hardly changed the VU's were moving in a completely different way and much better and smoother, they stopped jumping around and had a much more fluid motion to them. This is the type of stuff that I find good VU's handy for. But I am quite excited about hunting down some sort of digital equivalent and I am convinced now that it is out there. (BTW I would have not picked that strange ballistic behaviour using Dave's approach with a digital meter around -14, compared to the VU meter around zero db)

Ozone 4 is also a great example but you have to get the mastering plugins as well to get the metering but I am sure the metering only is an option even if its from another company like Blue Cat. They have had some very good reviews on their other plugins so I am hopeful their meter will also be very good.

Just wanted to point out that you can get meters to show 0dB even though they are at -18dB (or more if you use a plugin to increase gain) by using an extra bus:
1. Create/insert a "Meters" bus as a send in Master. Output it to "None".
2. Adjust Master-send, Meters-trim, and Meters-Gain to adjust the "0dB" point of the meters for the Meters bus (each give you +6dB/-Infinity). Insert a plugin in the Meters-fx bin to provide gain if you need more than +18dB (i.e. if you want -20dB to show up as 0dB you need +20dB total gain on the Meters bus).


You can either use Sonar's meters or any meter plug (inserted in the Meters bus) using this method and get the full range of the meters using this method. The only disadvantages are the "peak meter" for the Meters bus is obviously wrong, and having the extra bus.

drewfx

How are the meters in the Blue Cat better than in SPAN 2.0 if you mind elaborating, Jeff? What does they do that the SPAN K-Systems meters don't?

Certainly its a nice plugin  and not expensive for what it does. All blue cat plugins look impressive.

Damn, that sounds pretty good and I think I'm convinced. I am probably going to jump on that Blue Cat Peak Meter Pro for sure.
One last thing, Jeff. Are you using a 32 bit OS or 64? I'm on 64 and really don't like using bit bridge, I will if I have too...

On the Blue Cat Peak Meter Pro the k-system has no +0 for the -14 k-system only the -12 and -20 ?
Just a line.

It should be ok  as it is the latest version 3.21 I only just bought it when we started this thread.

On the k-14 its showing -2 | +2

Jeff
Love its so cheap for what it can do. The fluid knob is great so smooth. Wonder why they didn't put the +0 on the -k14? Must be a reason?
I have it setup permanently now on my normal template.

Hi Guys.
When using the K-System, is it the peak or the RMS that should be at the 0 on the Blue Cat meters.

Jose what a fine diagram you posted in your post. It really shows how the K system works. I just want to say that for me working at all three cal levels is interesting and is a good thing in your day to day work as an engineer.

A track created to the K 20 standard is going to require more care in mastering especially if the client wants it fairly squashed and loud. So getting the average rms level from around -20 db up to maybe -4 db rms  is quite a job to do well transparently.

If I know that the end result is going to be hot before you start, then you can think maybe K 14 or a K 12 standard. A K12 track is already hot and failry loud sounding. Its 8 db up from our K 20 track. That is a lot. So getting from K 12 or rms level averaging -12 up to a hot - 3db or so is going to be much easier and you can do it without any artifcats.

But if you are doing a pristine sounding and dynamic range production right through from tracking to final master, then K 20 is the obvious choice and in 24 bit as well. So from there you can create so many different sounding final masters in whatever lower resolutions (and higher K ref levels) are required.

Hi fitzj There are a couple of things to consider. Firstly I have 3 refernces for the pink noise. One at -20, -14 and -12. (Use the -20 file and just add precise amounts of gain.)

The K ref level that you are going to work at needs to be decided. eg Lets produce a track at K = -14db. Now you should load up your -14 db noise. (this noise is not filtered either) We insert the filter and set both monitors for 86 db A Weighted.  Remove filter and Noise. Now if you were to playback a mix at this point that had been done at -14 then your meter should be just hitting 86 db on the SPL meter. 0 db rms on the stereo buss.

When you say 86 is too loud, is your SPL meter showing the music just hitting 86 db A Weighted and you think that is loud? It certainly is not real soft I agree but the OH&S standards say we can work at this volume for 8 hours or so.

Playing back a heavily mastered track on Sonar set at this K level would be way higher than 86 db, so when you are doing that, you have to adjust the input level to your monitoring system from the CD player so that a produced CD is also only making about 86 db of sound loudness. (or if you ripped and imported a wave file form a CD it would also be very loud and you would have to compensate by lowering that track playback volume so the meters just reach 0db rms on the stereo buss.)

fitzj


I calibrated my speakers this evening and  I am not sure what type of ears you all have but pink noise at -20 rms 86db on my radio shack with both speakers on is pretty hard on my ears and I am in my mid fifties. Its so loud.
Wouldn't even dream of calibrating at -12 or -14 too hard on my ears.
I played some tracks from different albums to see the levels and most even when I had my k-12  on the bus I had to bring back the trim over 9db to get it on the 0.
Records are pumped up to the last now.

 
Almost no one uses K-20 these days, so if you pop in a CD and you monitor at K-20 it will sound LOUD.  The idea behind the K-System is to adjust your monitor levels so that they always output 86dB SPL.  That's why you have 3 different K-levels, one for each type of music based on their dynamic range.  You, most often than not, will have to lower the output level of your monitoring environment (not Sonar) according to the dynamic range of the song being played from the CD.  So, as you see, these (K-20, K-14 & K-12) all work together and not exclusively.
 
My previous post shows example recordings and their proper listening levels based on the K-System.  Like I said, you set your monitoring environment to K-20 and then adjust from there.  It is a little on the loud side, but you can always lower it to suit you.  Even Bob Katz recommends lowering the level from 86dB SPL to something you feel more comfortable with.  IOW, you can make K-20 = 78dB SPL instead of 86dB SPL if that's what you want to.  The idea is to have a consistent monitoring environment, but nothing is set in stone.
 
 

Mike You adjust each monitor spaker one at a time for 83 db. The graphs above refer to one speaker. When both monitors come on you get about a 3 db extra in SPL so for stereo it is around 86 db SPL.

I think it is best to view the K system as to where the rms to peak ratios end up at the end of the day (after tracking/mixing) and not be too concerned what happens after that eg further mastering etc. For all three K ref levels, the music is the same volume in the room. However they all differ as to how much headroom there is (above normal rms values) and also how much louder things can go after that. eg With K 20 another 20 db of level is useable above the music. With K 12 there is only another 12 db above the music. All three tracks will average around three different levels in their waveforms though. With K 12 being the highest and K 20 the lowest.

Now if a client wants a really loud squashed master, all three K ref levels can go through further stages to get there and as I said in an earlier post (#78 ) the K 20 is going to require more work to get it there. And why would you? But you cannot really hand over a K20 recording to a client and say, there it is finished. (Although Bob Katz would love things to stop there and we just turn up our monitor gains to suit our listening experience)

But we can choose what K ref level we are going to work at initially with a project and end up with. (just prior to mastering that is)

I see the mastering stage as taking things further up from K12 for example (or K14 or K 20) to a higher average level now which we might call mastered level.  At this point you need to rip and import a modern mastered CD track in the same genre you are mastering (and you should be listening to music in the same genre as you are mastering anyway, I have said this!) and put it on an unused track (at unity gain) for example and you will find it will be louder than your K level.

Lets say I have been working on a track at K 14 during tracking and mixing. I now have a nice finished pre mastered mix sitting at rms - 14db and peaks jumping up to maybe 10 to 12 db higher than that. Now if I plant my ripped and imported CD track into the session it is going to be louder. But how much louder? You will have to pull that reference CD track channel fader down now so the music averages around say 0 db rms. (to match the K 14 level you have been working at) The amount you pull this fader down is how much higher above the K level you have chosen you are going to have to pull your master up. You might have to pull that fader down another 12 db! Be prepared to be shocked here because with a K 14 mix we know there is at least another 14 db of headroom above our mix and the silly mastering engineers of today are using every bit of it! So now the music might average around a K2 level or K = -2 db!

So that tells us now how much more we have to get out of our K 14 mix. (for a K 20 mix this amounts to another 18 db of loudness you have to go for!!!)

At this point you need to decide, am I going to now alter my K system ref another 12  db and make it K2 or K = -2 db. If I feel that pro CD is ridiculous then I might back off a little and just go for a new Jeff mastered  level if you like instead of maybe K = -6db or a K6 level. So I turn my VU's and monitor gain down a further 8 db. An unmastered track is now 8db shy of 0db so I have to go to work to bring things up to 0 db again. It might not be quite as hot as that very loud CD track but even at a K6 level it is going to be damn hot.

The reason why the loudness war is just so silly is for every db you are squeezing out of a CD, it is a db of less transient information you have left in your music. The K 12 ref level is quite loud at the end of the day and even without any mastering sounds pretty darn hot and loud. It is as high as really one should go in order to maintain some transient information left in the music.

fitzj must have been doing something wrong when he said the music was too loud after calibrating monitors at 86 db. The question was what was he playing back. If you calibrate your monitors for K -20 then you can only listen to music that was produced at that ref level. If he imported a CD track then that level needs to be adjusted to allow for the extra volume obtained during the mastering phase of that CD.

Hi Thrillington, thanks for joining in. No this SPL was not just made up, this standard of 83 db per speaker was invented by the movie industry and what is good is that at least in one industry we had a sort of standard of a ref level in the system and a certain sound level in the room that corresponded to that ref level. Bob thought it would be good to start there and it is a great ref level anyway. It means that things can blast up to 106 db if need be and that is plenty loud enough for anyone. Ever wondered why the dialogue and stuff in a theatre is at a nice level but every now and then it cranks up into serious! It just means they are using the extra 20 db now and then! Also with OH&S issues telling us that it is OK to work at 85 db SPL for 8 hours that could also explain it.

When we listen to things at this volume, because our ear changes its response to the frequency spectrum at all levels of SPL, we know that at 85 db or so we are hearing things at almost as good as they can be for well balanced frequencies to be heard and judged etc..

I hope people dont mind me raving about this stuff. I am very interested in ref levels of digital systems and also ref levels in the room!

In the good old days we had analog and we had a ref level too and it was 0 db VU. (on a meter) It referred to more about a rms voltage level eg 0.775V or 1.23 V rms etc.. The actual levels of signals inside analog systems (eg mixers and tape machines) varied a lot. But we also knew that there was a certain amount of headroom above that nominal level in our analog system. It varied from analog thing to thing but it was there.

In digital now we have a glass ceiling at 0db FS so we now have to consider two things. One, is what ref levels we are going to work at under that 0db FS. K system implies 3 good choices. And also we have the calibrated monitor gain. How loud is the music going to be all day while we are working at our K level?

When you make the effort the work at ref levels inside a digital system, you end up with the best tracks and things at the end of the day. Also by listening to everything at a calibrated sound level, it also adds accuracy in all areas of a mix and mastering session.

You need decent metering tools to make this all work properly. And Sonar has some weird things like the rms meters showing 3 db below all these levels I have been talking about. (as they are showing true rms which is 3db below peak values of a sinewave) But that is fine. Their peak metering is great and as long as you have certain plugins eg BlueCat Pro Meter in line somewhere (and real VU's if you want go that far) it is easy to keep all these things in check.

Thanks Thrillington, it is a bit of a difficult subject and it took me a while before I sort of figured it all out too. I think with digital, many of us were and still are recording and tracking and mixing at all sorts of ref levels and they are not consistent, and at a wide range of room monitoring levels as well . When you think of those two things not being calibrated then what hope is there!

The good thing too is when you do work at K ref levels your music all comes out nice and consistent no matter what the material is. Could be a piano and vocal duo or a metal band. You can still do both of those at a chosen K ref level. Makes mastering easier for either you or a ME. It means consistent approaches to achieving mastered levels as well.

And thanks to Zo for pointing to that great link on the Dorrough site with the videos about audio metering. Here is the link direct below. Worth watching all three of these. Yes it is a bit of a sell for Dorrough but also some great info on modern metering requirements.

http://www.dorrough.com/video.html