alexoosthoek


Great!! Thanks on behalf of the CHB :-)

There's more to come ...............

Excellent, thanks

..... budgeting for an ADK laptop .......

LixiSoft

foyle

alexoosthoek


Great!! Thanks on behalf of the CHB :-)

There's more to come ...............

Excellent, thanks

..... budgeting for an ADK laptop .......

..... budgeting for an ADK laptop .......

I can tell you it will be true "PLUG AND PLAY" 

Couldn't agree more!

So we have to post responses in both threads? 
 
P,
This isn't my first go around with a laptop.  
I've been using and building DAWs for 14+ years.
I knew exactly what I was looking for...
To accomplish the tasks I want the ability to achieve (working at ultra low latency - which I've made quite clear), having low/consistent DPC latency is paramount.
(This is well documented... not just my opinion.)
Without that being in check... you can forget it.  Doesn't matter if you're talking cheap, expensive, custom, off-the-shelf, laptop, tower, rackmount, whatever.
You're absolutely right in that I expected what I found.  It's a common problem...
If that is bias, then yeah... I'm certainly biased.  With good reason... 
As I mentioned, the MacBook Pros (out of the box) also suffer from high DPC latency.  The one difference being that you can chase down updated drivers (for the WiFi)... and tweak several things to reduce the DPC latency.  On the MacBook Pros, the keyboard management service (not really necessary) is notorious for causing major DPC latency issues.  If you run Windows on a MacBook Pro (via Bootcamp), you have to disable this service to effectively use the MBP to record/mix audio.  You can Google search and read about the issue.
 
Several folks wanted to know why Scott and I were saying that typical off-the shelf laptops don't make good DAWs.
Knowing DPC Latency is a common problem, that's where I went.  If it's out of control, it's non-starter.  No reason to go on...
I wasn't doing a magazine style review.  I gave a short example of why I feel the way I do...
 
As far as tweaking to reduce DPC latency, it's not a "say's Jim Roseberry" issue.
DPC Latency is either in check... or not.
There are numerous things you can do to try and mitigate high idle DPC latency.  I'm not going to list them all for you.
You do the research and figure them out for yourself.  Many are similar to the tweaks I would have done to get DPC latency lower under Vista (prior to SP2).  I spent hours doing everything possible to get DPC latency low/consistent on the HP.
If I haven't made this crystal clear, let me say it again:
If it were possible to get DPC Latency under control on the HP, I would have kept it.
The HP would have been my new live laptop.  As I said, the specs were excellent for $1350.
I liked everything else about the laptop.  I've mentioned that numerous times.  I liked the shell better than a custom Clevo.
 
Regarding my relationship with MicroCenter, you have absolutely no idea of what you speak.
I know those folks on first name basis.  I spend well into 6 figures there every year.
They were made aware that I was taking the laptop home to test.  If it suited my needs, I was going to keep it.  If not, I had 7 days to return it.  They did not want me testing it for 8 hours on the floor.  That was clarified up front.  All that said, frankly... it's not relevent... and it's really not your concern.
 
When you say I didn't give the factory config a chance, P, you really can't begin to be serious.
That laptop was *EXTREMELY* loaded with bloatware... and had 10 to 20 startup items running in the background (including A/V).
It was a complete mess!  And yes, P, I did test DPC latency of the stock config.
It was exactly the same...
I tried for about 8 hours... to update/tweak/etc... to try and get DPC latency under control.
Nothing made a substantial difference.
As with some desktop motherboards, sometimes there's literally nothing that can be done to mitigate the problem.
 
If you're saying with a straight face that you didn't shut down any background apps... or tweak in any way to make your laptop run more efficient, then this discussion has to end here.  That laptop (stock) was a bloated mess by any reasonable standard.
 
I will apologize if you feel in any way insulted by my comments about the HP.  Clearly you are... or you wouldn't be trying to question my integrity (which is pretty well documented).
I can't say that I understand it... but I apologize.
 
Enjoy your HP... and I'll enjoy my MBP and Custom i7

Jim,
 
Thanks for your posts.  They are always interesting.
 
Some of the reactions you are getting seem pretty extreme.  I know there's history, but for me, once the 'daw saleman' ad hominen attack is played, it's hard to take the rest seriously.
 
There's nothing wrong with having an hypothesis, pro or con, and running an experiment to test it.  In most circles, it is appreciated. 
 
My take on the members around here is that most are pretty savy and don't rely on any single opinion.   We need more people doing real-world testing of gear.  More data points.  Keep up the posts.
 
Murray
edited: typo

pinguinotuerto

Jim Roseberry


With all the discussion/argument over whether off-the shelf laptops make good DAWs...
I figured I'd pickup an HP dv7-3080us, run it thru some tests... and show why it's not a particularly good DAW.    
  
 

Jim,
 
I see several problems with your little “research project” right off the bat, and to be honest, it is the most biased heap of crap I have read in a long, long time.
 
You start your thread by saying, “I figured I'd pickup an HP dv7-3080us, run it thru (sic) some tests... and show why it's not a particularly good DAW”. 
 
hilarious. to quote Jim

HP loads the units with a plethora of bloatware... so I started with a clean OS install:

 
uhh yeah this is the very first thing you do, even most "novices" know this.
 

To use the dv7-3080us as a DAW, you're forced to run a USB audio interface... on a machine with high DPC latency.
If you have any kind of performance expectatons... that's not a recipe for success.

 
glad you are happy with USB. anyone who needs decent performance @ low latency WONT find USB acceptable this is just the facts. with the exception of the RME UC and to some degree the Motu USB.
hobbyiests will be fine with USB (maybe) he was clear in his statement.
 
you know we dont have to post in these forums and help people. and its people like you and a few others that cause me (and i am sure Jim) to wonder why we even bother sometimes.
i dont mind aswering questions as to why i made a particular statement in fact i welcome it.
but when we have to defend ourselves from personal attacks its just about enough to make me say screw you dont ask for help ever again casue i am not answering.
there are many in the forums whom are greatful we post all lthe help we do. and Jim is even more forth coming than i am.
 
Jim didnt have to go out and buy a laptop and do this test he aleady knew what the outcome would be.
why did he? to put this HP crap to bed and to defend/prove what we were saying. and frankly he handed those who disagreed a HUGE cup of shut the heck up.
 
had i not been in the middle of testing new laptops myself i would have done the same thing. he beat me to it by a day or 2.
 
he/i post this stuff so people dont go out and waste money. and Yes unlike him i do sell laptops (that actually work)
do i pick up a few sales from it yes. but i am here to help people from making a mistake in purchasing.
 
i cant tell you how many PMs i get saying "i wish i had read your posts before i had bought this laptop as it does not work"
 
so take your bad attitude some where else.
and lastly i am always clear when i say "it probably wont work with firewire, USB should be OK"
 

Scott, 
  
 
Cheers!

foyle


Also a quick thanks to Jim, Scott and Alexoosthoek.

Ive been monitoring the discussions about off the shelf laptops for a while. I am a relative novice with DAW, been using midi on and off since the late 80's. My current laptop is a Lenovo dual core (older with 1.6 GHz intel, 2 gigs). It cannot run Sonar or Ableton well beyond a few midi tracks and at best one audio. My homemade desktop a newer dual core 2.5, 4 gigs runs both Sonar and Ableton fine with multiple midi and audio (even with internet and Avast virus check on). I always wondered why the dramatic difference.  Alexoosthoek's demos convinced me that a properly setup notebook can handle what I'd like to do.

Glad I could help :-)

pinguinotuerto,

my laptop is a hp pavilion dv7 (2043cl) and i would like to use this machine for recording if possible. i notice you are working with a laptop from the same series and a line 6 ux8. i was thinking of buying a ux2 however there are thousands of threads on the line 6 forums suggesting that line 6 studio pods will not work with this series of hp laptop. i would be working with guitars and mics for voices and maybe some softsynths. i am a mere hobbyist when it comes to the studio and wanting to record some work for independent releases is all. any advice on how you got the line 6 gear working would be much appreciated as would any advice on alternative interfaces in the same price range that would work with my system (x64 home premium version of vista although i may upgrade to windows 7).

jcschild


at this point i am not even going to comment on that personal attack. other than

and lastly i am always clear when i say "it probably wont work with firewire, USB should be OK"
some part of that u are not getting mr platinum

Mr. Platinum... I like that! Sounds like a rapper. Maybe I'll change my user name.
 
I see, first you said you weren't going to comment on my "post", now you changed it to "personal attack". And what exactly was your post against me, an act of kindness?  Go ahead and play the victim role, it suits you well, especially after you gang up on people who don't agree with you, but do me a favor... before you give someone advice, please make sure you know what you're talking about.  And if you're not sure about what you're talking about, at least have the humility to let whomever you're speaking to know.  It'll benefit all parties involved, including yourself!
 
 
 
 

well, I know someone who should thank JR. http://www.marketwatch.co...14-163600?siteid=yhoof

 
FWIW, I'll use whatever is the best CPU at a given time.
I've used AMD in the past.  I think I was one of the first DAW users in the US to have an original Athlon (the long "slot" version).
If AMD gets it together and surpasses Intel (not likely in the near term), then I'll happily use AMD (assuming we have solid motherboard choice/etc).

sandman5000


so the conclusion is...it can make  a great DAW.

Well Sandman, it works for me. I can't say that it'll meet everyone's demands or expectations.  I record mostly audio.  Usually I'll set up 8 audio tracks to record simultaneously (for drums) and I enable track layers and setup a loop in/out point so I can do multiple takes without stopping.  I can say that a machine that can handle recording 8 tracks simultaneously (6 times in a row without stopping) without a single glitch is a good machine.  I've given other examples already of what I've been able to do so far.  Like I said, I have never used a FireWire interface so I don't know if it will work well. 
 
One other thing I did was hook up a WD My Mirror dual drive (RAID) to the USB port while using the UX8 interface (USB) and a USB midi interface.  I wanted to see if the USB bus would choke with so many things using it.  I streamed a 32 audio track Sonar file from the USB drive while using the other USB peripherals at the same time and the computer didn't even flinch. Nada, zip, zilch! My older laptop with a Dual Turion (which has WAY better DPC latency than my DV7) would choke if I had anything else plugged into any of the USB ports besides the UX8 or UX2.  Can't wait to put a second 7200 rpm hard drive in this sucker!!
 
Take care!
 
 

P,
My point (and I am right about this)... is that the HP (and the eqivalent Dell Studio 1747 that is currently sitting next to me) are not going to perform well in low latency settings (especially under substantial load).
 
Connect an audio interface that allows working at a total round-trip latency of 5-6ms.
That means either a RME Fireface, MOTU Firewire, Steinberg MR816, or the RME Fireface UC.
Anything else will have higher latency... and thus skew the results.  (Many USB/Firewire audio interfaces use a *large* hidden safety buffer... which can literally double the round-trip latency mentioned above.)
Set the audio interface to a 64-sample ASIO buffer size and sample-rate at 44.1k.
 
Now... to make the test project consistent/easy to duplicate:
Load up the Unified Tribe song "Guilty" from the Sonar 8 content DVD. 
On a fast i7 tower/rackmount DAW, "Guilty" really isn't that heavy of a load (~12-20% on my tower).
Start playback at said settings... and have a listen. 
In short, it won't playback without major glitches.  No amount of bickering, arguing, complaining, etc will change this.
Using a TI chipset Firewire controller (via express-card) won't change this.
Streaming the audio from an eSATA HD that sustains 120MB/Sec won't change this.
The only way to mitigate the problem is... wait for it... to increase latency.  
These laptops *could* have effectively worked at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size (the processing power is there), but DPC latency has to be down to the bone and consistent to do so.  We know this not to be the case.  For the record, the Dell Studio 1747's DPC latency is very slightly lower and a little more consistent than the HP's. 
 
EDITED to add:
As a point of comparison, the much slower 2.4GHz Core2Duo Laptop (MBP) breezes thru the above test (with the exact same audio hardware and settings)... totally glitch-free.  That's the difference low DPC latency and good TI Firewire can make.  If the HP and Dell had those attributes, they have enough speed to smoke the 2.4GHz Core2Duo.
 
For many folks, working at small ASIO buffer sizes is absolutely necessary.  Cranking up the latency isn't an acceptable work-around.  Note that if you do raise the ASIO buffer size, the project will play clean... but your round-trip latency is double/quadruple what it was... (fine if you're mixing only - not so fine if you're playing/monitoring in realtime thru software EFX... or if you want to play layers of the more taxing soft-synths - Omnisphere, Ivory, BFD, Massive, etc - with ultra tight timing).
 
The Dell's onboard Firewire controller (02Micro) works ok if you don't run the system at low latency settings (below 256-sample ASIO buffer size)... and as long as you're not pushing the CPU load too far.
Using an SIIG express-card TI Firewire controller (in the 02Micro express-card slot) netted slightly worse results.
 
So... the HP and Dell are fine if you don't have what I consider high performance expectations.
"High Performance expectations" is subjective.  This is where we differ.
I'm used to building machines where I have complete control over everything.  Components and configuration
In that type of scenario, there would be no imepedement to working at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size... if you make the right choices.  Yes, it is expensive.  No... it's not for everyone.  $2500+ is a lot for most folks (including myself). 
That's why I'm not crazy about laptops in general.  I very much see them as an all-or-nothing proposition.
 
These two off-the-shelf laptops may indeed be great choices for you and others with similar situations/goals.
The machine works for you... and nothing I say changes that.  I do understand...  
But the flip side is also true.  Those laptops would never work for me... and other folks who have similar expectations.
If if sounds like I'm OCD about DPC... yes, I am.    I have to be...
No disrespect... and serious congratulations on the Platinum Record!
 
 

Thanks Jim and Scott!

The review is very much appreciated.

best,
mike

mike_mccue

sandman5000


"...over 50 audio tracks with 30+ plug-ins and 5 vsti’s including TruePianos (2 instances), Dimmension Pro, East/West Symph Orchestra and Session Drummer 3, without any glitches whatsoever, out-of-the-box with no tweaks at 44.1, 24 bit with a 128 buffer size-- while running  PODFarm as a stand-alone application, with my network card enabled and Internet Explorer running in the background.  So you tell me what I’m missing here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"




How does that not make a great DAW?

I'll go two for one here :-)

By todays standards, that's a karaoke rig. 

True Pianos????

Session Drummer 3?

Enjoy it... but let's not pretend that a schmoe like me wouldn't drop it to it's knees by doing one or two of the many things I expect a DAW to do... like float a few instances of Kontakt, run a linear phase EQ. How about running a few convolution reverbs? Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have monitoring capabilities on 8 outputs. And it only takes a few real multitrack sessions to see why you want a PCI or firewire interface.

BTW, I spoke on the phone to Jim just yesterday... he told me to go buy my next home office laptop at Best Buy... so much for the *salesman* theory. Honestly, I feel those who have made those sort of accusations have exhibited very poor taste.

If you have a great story about your laptop... why not post a sepearate and positive review of your expereince... listing all the apps and plugs you are running and  then folks can figure out if that sort of performance is satisfactory for their needs.

all the best,
mike

Are you serious??????? A karaoke rig? LMAO!  To me being able to do 50 tracks with over 30 plugins is a dream come true, but then again, I'm a novice, what the hell do I know.  You Pros really know what's up.  Funny, you have no personal experience with the machine in question yet you're claiming you can bring it to its knees. I'm sure you can, I'm sure you can.  
I didn't know that Kontakt was the litmus test for what constitutes a DAW.
 
After a comment like that what can I say?
 
Does kontakt also write the songs for you?  I find it hilarious how so many people use gear to overcompensate for their shortcomings. 
 
Anyway, enjoy your super-computer, I'm sure it makes your songs sound wonderful.  I'll stick with my Karaoke rig. 
 
 

Jim,
 
Had you made the disclaimers you're making now I would've never posted in response to your post.  Like you just said, what constitutes a satisfactory machine depends on the needs of the user.  For my needs, my machine works just fine, obviously for you it wouldn't.  But my problem with your original post was that you made the assertion that your needs are the benchmark by which all DAWs should be measured, and I don't agree with that.  There are plenty of people that would be more than satisfied with the performance they can get out of one of these new DV7 Core i7 laptops.  Some of them might be "amateurs" or "hobbyists" and that is absolutely fine.  Amateurs and hobbyists have a right to make music also.  Anyway, I apologize to you for my harshness and I hope you accept my apology.  You are a nice man indeed.