HP dv7-3080us - a look at one of the better off-the-shelf units

With all the discussion/argument over whether off-the shelf laptops make good DAWs...
I figured I'd pickup an HP dv7-3080us, run it thru some tests... and show why it's not a particularly good DAW.  
Note that this model isn't a cheap laptop.  It's one of the better off-the-shelf units you can buy.
(The best unit our local MicroCenter had in stock) 
 
 
HP dv7-3080us - $1499

• Core i7 720QM
• 6GB DDR3
• 500GB 7200RPM HD
• Geforce GT230M w/1GB RAM
• 17.3" LED display
• Blu-Ray ROM
• eSATA
• 1394a

Looking at the specs and general appearance, this would appear to make a good DAW.
It's a nice looking machine.  Sharp display, nice keyboard (including a 10-key), nice glide-point, etc
 
HP loads the units with a plethora of bloatware... so I started with a clean OS install:
With a clean install of Win7 x64... tweaked to the hilt (to get DPC latency as low as possible) here is a video showing the resultant idle DPC latency:
http://www.studiocat.com/temp/hp_dv7-3080us.MOV
 
As a point of reference, here's the DPC latency of what I consider a "good" laptop DAW.
Again, this laptop has been tweaked to the 9's to get DPC latency as low as possible:
http://www.studiocat.com/temp/good_laptop.MOV
 
(The videos were shot quickly with my phone so forgive the quality)
 
The HP's DPC latency manages to stay in the green... but it's considerably higher than optimal.
What does this mean in realworld circumstances?
Low DPC latency allows you to push a DAW harder without experiencing dropouts/glitches (especially at low-latency settings).  ie:  The "good" laptop in the above example (A Core2Duo) can play a substantial load of soft-synths live at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size... with absolutely zero glitches.  The HP (i7-720QM quad-core) can not do this.
If you want to monitor in realtime thru software EFX plugins (ie AmpSims like Amplitube Fender, Ampeg SVX, etc), the slower Core2Duo can do this.  The faster HP will not allow you to run full projects while playing/monitoring with a 64-sample ASIO buffer size.  The HP is a prime example of a "faster" machine... that's severly limited by high DPC latency.
If you could get DPC latency completely under control, the HP would easily out-perform the Core2Duo.
 
On to the Firewire controller:
This HP laptop has a Jmicron Firewire controller.
That's not mentioned on the website or in the printed documentation... but a "tip off" can be found on HP website.  There's a Jmicron driver for the card reader...
Think that the Firewire controller makes no difference in today's computers?
Install one of the better Firewire interfaces (MOTU or RME)... and you'll find the following:
The drivers install... and the audio interface appears to be recognized by Windows.
Fire up Media Player to test basic audio playback... and you'll hear nothing but garbled noise.
Fire up Sonar... and (of course), Sonar will crash. 
Note:  Switching the Windows Firewire drivers to the "Legacy" version doesn't solve the problem.
The Jmicron Firewire controller simply won't work.  Even with a BIOS update... and disabling power-saving features for the Firewire controller (in the BIOS)
Installing an express-card TI chipset Firewire controller won't solve the problem... as the express-card controller is Jmicron (you're not circumventing the problem).
To use the dv7-3080us as a DAW, you're forced to run a USB audio interface... on a machine with high DPC latency.
If you have any kind of performance expectatons... that's not a recipe for success.
 
I want to take a moment and make another quick point.
This same situation/problem also affects many custom laptops.
It's all too easy to spend a lot of money and end up with little (performane wise) to show for it.
Overall, I'm not a big proponent of laptops.  The ones I consider up-to-par start at about $2500.
That's a lot of money to spend for a machine that has virtually no upgrade path. 
For the professional who needs the portability/performance, it's certainly worth the expense.
For most folks, a tower/rackmount is a much better investment.
FWIW, I'd love to find a $500 laptop that delivers 128+ notes of polyphony at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size... using layers of Omnisphere, Ivory, Massive, etc.  But that machine doesn't exist.  If it did, I'd be using it to play live gigs. 
 
To sum it up, the HP dv7-3080us makes a beautiful "office" machine.
In "non-realtime critical" work scenarios (where DPC latency truly doesn't matter) this laptop would be nice!
In "realtime critical" situations, the dv7-8030us is a waste of $1499.
 
 

Jim,
 
Thanks very much for that report.  I'm glad that the DV7 3020ea I bought recently was not really intended for a DAW!
 
Interesting that you found the firewire chip maker as I could not find that anywhere.  I am assuming that my machine is very similar internally to yours (I think it's just different options) so I think I will not waste my money trying an express card with it.  Even though I did not buy this laptop for serious DAW work it would still be nice if the vendors could get their act together in this respect and make a decent laptop for the job - I see no reason that a laptop has to have high DPC latency.
 
In fact I am still amazed that nothing other than the TI chipset seems to work for firewire audio.  This has been the situation for far too long.  I'm sure this is to do with the drivers rather than silicon - MS still do not give good information in this area and I know several software engineers who end up just having to hack around some of the MS "reference" drivers to get them to work as there is virtually no information on the "hooks" into the OS.  They would all prefer MUCH better information from MS in this area as they really end up having to work in the dark. 
 
I do a lot of work on evaluation and reference designs for large silicon manufacturers and know that the software they generate and make available is often used by manufacturers virtually "as is" (as with the hardware aspects).  The problem is that this software is not exhaustively tested for all scenarios and I know that many of these designs really need more optimising by the end users.  Altogether a poor situation!

Thanks for that, Jim, I'm taking delivery of my 3020EA on Wednesday - my excuse is that it was a cheaply financed second mobile machine and at least I had proof that the latency wasn't in the red!
 
Can you quantify what you mean by a 'substantial load of softsynths' and a 'full project'. I suspect that your expectations are somewhat higher than mine. What DPC latency figure did you get - I couldn't load the .mov?
 
Any tips on how to get the laptop 'tweaked to the 9's' and which USB interface might get the best out of the machine?
 
Cheers
 
M

this whole thing reminds me of infomercials where every other product is made to look completely useless. How about avoiding firewire altogether? its a dying technology. Apple (its creator) is even abandoning it. USB 3 is in the pipeline and will make it obsolete. Why would anybody, in good conscience, recommend a firewire interface in this day and age? There is the express card slot that is a better choice for a laptop than firewire anyway. Its my understanding that the prefered choice in interface (for audio ) is: PCI (express card slot on laptops) Firewire USB Anybody that follows computer tech knows firewire is on its last legs. There are good express slot options that work great on pretty much any old laptop. And now there are even very good USB options. So why woulld anybody, again in good concious, recomed a $2,500 laptop just to use a firewire isoundcard?

 
It's not the lack of good firewire controller that's the final sticking point, it's the high idle DPC latency (that can't be mitigated).  If the DPC latency on the HP could be reduced to where it was on the Core2Duo, the HP would easily out-perform it.  (I mentioned this in the post.)
Unless you have the ability to create custom BIOS/drivers for said hardware, you're not going to achieve low idle DPC latency with the HP.  I encourage you to pony up the $1500 and see for yourself.  
Low idle DPC latency is paramount for any "realtime critical" application (including low-latency audio).  Using a USB or express-card audio interface does not circumvent this...
 
With regards to USB audio interfaces, the RME Fireface UC is the only unit that offers round-trip latency equal to the best PCI/e or Firewire units.  That's a $1200 audio interface. 
USB3 audio interfaces are currently vapor-ware.
If you need multiple channels of I/O with low round-trip latency (important for playing/monitoring in realtime thru software EFX), express-card is off the table.  Indigo isn't multi I/O.
Typical USB audio interfaces are off the table... as most have double the round-trip latency.
That leaves MOTU or RME Firewire units or the RME Fireface UC.
 
The bottom line is this:
A good laptop DAW is expensive. (If you don't truly need a laptop, don't waste the money on one)
They're expensive for me too.
I wish the HP made a great DAW.  Other than the issues mentioned, it was a really nice machine.
If the DPC latency could have been reigned-in, the HP would have been my new live laptop.
 
 

cards r stacked a bit.   how is the dpc   under xp?  im sure it will be considerably lower.  however there may not be xp drivers for all the items available for that model.  why dont you try it with xp and report back?

  either way too much is made of low dpc latency and TI firewire.  they r red hearings IMHO.

it really comes down to what is considered "acceptable performance".

I realize the daw salesmen think they own that definition.

But the truth is there is hardly anyone recording 50 tracks while they play back another 50 @64  sample buffer setting.

sure its desirable.  but the question is..is  it truly worth it?  or even a couple of grand worth of noticeable?

to each there own on that.

to me its not worth it or noticeable at all.  especially since i can get so much done with a little higher latency.  even play live.

To me,  I'd rather spent the 1200 on the rme and have a great interface that I can use on any computer (and well into the foreseeable future,  unlike firewire).

But there are great audio interfaces at much lower price points too.   But if you got the $2500 for a laptop...


BTW i own two laptops.  one is a 4 -5 year old 2.4 athlon.  i use an emu 1616m with it.  works fantastic and i've made full productions on it that are released.  (I also have a quad core desktop).  So so much for 'professionals' 'needing'  all this performance.  under the daw salesmen definitions,  hardly anyone qualifies as pro.

the other i mentioned in another thread.  It's a little cheap acer netbook that i use live,  and off the built in sound card(!).  I get a lot of work done with that too ( to my own surprise as well).

99% of the world is recording 1-8 tracks at a time. maybe 10 tracks tops at a time (more like 1-2 at a time).  easy for most laptops in the last 5 years.

there are perfectly acceptable options out there that cheap and powerful. beyond 'acceptable' really.  These new laptops simply smoke.  And so many powerful ones for like $600 and under.  incredible times we live in for sure!

I personally think these daw salesmen do some good,  but also harm to the community.

People want to know what cheap,  working options are out there.  But these guys throw up all these scare tactics and red hearings and it makes true discussion and help difficult. 

sandman5000


cards r stacked a bit.   how is the dpc   under xp?  im sure it will be considerably lower.  however there may not be xp drivers for all the items available for that model.  why dont you try it with xp and report back?

either way too much is made of low dpc latency and TI firewire.  they r red hearings IMHO.

it really comes down to what is considered "acceptable performance".

I realize the daw salesmen think they own that definition.

But the truth is there is hardly anyone recording 50 tracks while they play back another 50 @64  sample buffer setting.

sure its desirable.  but the question is..is  it truly worth it?  or even a couple of grand worth of noticeable?

to each there own on that.

to me its not worth it or noticeable at all.  especially since i can get so much done with a little higher latency.  even play live.

To me,  I'd rather spent the 1200 on the rme and have a great interface that I can use on any computer (and well into the foreseeable future,  unlike firewire).

But there are great audio interfaces at much lower price points too.   But if you got the $2500 for a laptop...


BTW i own two laptops.  one is a 4 -5 year old 2.4 athlon.  i use an emu 1616m with it.  works fantastic and i've made full productions on it that are released.  (I also have a quad core desktop).  So so much for 'professionals' 'needing'  all this performance.  under the daw salesmen definitions,  hardly anyone qualifies as pro.

the other i mentioned in another thread.  It's a little cheap acer netbook that i use live,  and off the built in sound card(!).  I get a lot of work done with that too ( to my own surprise as well).

99% of the world is recording 1-8 tracks at a time. maybe 10 tracks tops at a time (more like 1-2 at a time).  easy for most laptops in the last 5 years.

there are perfectly acceptable options out there that cheap and powerful. beyond 'acceptable' really.  These new laptops simply smoke.  And so many powerful ones for like $600 and under.  incredible times we live in for sure!

I personally think these daw salesmen do some good,  but also harm to the community.

People want to know what cheap,  working options are out there.  But these guys throw up all these scare tactics and red hearings and it makes true discussion and help difficult. 

 
We don't have laptops on the Studio Cat site.
Laptops are not a substantial part of our business.
I'm not a fan of laptops in general... because they don't have an upgrade path... and the good units are expensive.
If that sounds like someone trying to sell you a laptop, then so be it. 
 
You can't run WinXP on the HP laptop.  No drivers...
Also, with the 6GB of RAM (and with the new gen hardware)... running WinXP isn't exactly "forward thinking".
 
If "Way too much is being made of DPC Latency and TI chipset Firewire", you show me a single off-the-shelf laptop that would allow me to run my live rig at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size.
That's Omnisphere, Kontakt 4, Massive, etc... pulling 128+ notes of polyphony (layers/splits)... totally glitch-free.
Show me the cheap (current generation) laptop that can do this...
I'll give you a hint... it doesn't exist.  If it did, I'd be using it... and worry a lot less about it getting damaged/stolen at gigs.
 
If you want a simple 8-track 44.1k recorder (and working at low-latency isn't important), yes... the HP is up to the task.
If you want to play live (with lots of polyphony and tight timing)... or you want to monitor in realtime thru software EFX (while working on a full project), then yes... DPC latency (and round-trip latency) are of paramount importance.
If you're tracking hours of "critical material"... say 8+ simultaneous tracks of 96k audio, then yes... low idle DPC latency is important.
 
Great low cost USB audio interfaces?
If you simply want to overdub some tracks, yes.
If you want to play/monitor in realtime thru software EFX (Amplitube Fender, Ampeg SVX), would you rather play thru 12ms total round-trip latency... or 5-6ms of total round-trip latency?
Cheap USB (and Firewire) audio interfaces suffer from high round-trip latency due to large/hidden safety buffers.
If you want USB and low round-trip latency, you have but a single choice, the Fireface UC.
 
As Scott and I have mentioned (ad nauseum), it used to be much easier to find decent off-the-shelf *and* custom laptops that worked well as a DAW.  So I'm not shocked/surprised that your older laptop works fine...
Again, show me a current generation laptop that works well in the scenarios I mentioned.
 
High idle DPC Latency... is NOT a good thing for a DAW (or any realtime critical application).
 
Business 101:
*If* there were good low-cost laptop DAW options... we'd be selling them.
They'd fly off the shelf...
 
 

Jim Roseberry

 
Hi M,
 
The HP's idle DPC latency jumped between 150-500uSec.
The Core2Duo averaged ~24uSec.
 
If you run a USB audio interface, don't mind working at 256+ sample ASIO buffer size, and you're working on small projects, you'll be fine.
 
If you want to work at small ASIO buffer sizes (64-samples)... or you want to work at high res (96k), you need a machine with low idle DPC latency.  Otherwise, you'll experience dropouts/glitches/etc.
The harder you push said machine (especially at low latency), the more DPC latency becomes a factor.
 
When I play live, I use some of the better sounding soft-synths (Omnisphere, Massive, etc).  With complex layers/splits... pulling a lot of polyphony, it's a pretty substantial load.
(It's hard to give an exact figure due to so many variables.)
I like to work at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size (live or studio).  When playing live, timing/response is tight.
When working in the studio, a 64-sample ASIO buffer size keeps round-trip latency to a minimum.  (Important if you want to play/monitor in realtime thru software EFX)
 
A realworld example:
When I did the recording sessions for Jet-City, I used a laptop.
In this case, we were recording simultaneous drum tracks at 96k.
We recorded 8 hours a day... for an entire week.
That's a lot of time/energy/money... and it's a boatload of raw data.
Needless to say, I didn't want to worry about dropouts/glitches while tracking... and I certainly didn't want to worry about whether the individual tracks were clean (recorded glitch-free - no pops/ticks/etc).
Using a machine with low idle DPC latency is insurance against said problems.
 
 
 

Thanks Jim. Currently for my Pop/Rock/Folk stuff, I might run 4 or 5 softsynths for drums, bass, piano, orchestral and only need reasonable timing to play in one part at a time. I might have 4 voices and 4 guitar parts, all doubled and delayed with some stock FX on the buses.

I should imagine the 3020EA will handle that OK and 256 samples sounds like it might do me fine. I'm currently just struggling at 2048 samples with an RME 9652 on an old P4 3GHz. I'm not about to start staging laser shows anytime soon... ;-)

If I start outgrowing the 3020EA or it's unsuitable I'll buy a tower from a DAW builder as I have always done.

Are there some good Win7 optimisation sites out there with some good tips?

Cheers

M

hehehe
glad i have him on ignore.
i can only imagine the BS.
hey Jim,
you would be shocked at what our affordable 15" can pull off.

Thanks for the input Jim - I am considering a laptop for my Dad, though this will not be as a DAW per se, just a machine to run Kontakt. Perhaps I'll have to rethink (or hit up Scott at ADK).

I for one appreciate your thoroughness. And having spent a few days struggling to record while monitoring what I'm playing through Amplitube, any machine that won't let me do that at a low latency is less than worthless to me.

I have to say this is "One interesting thread" & thank you Jim for taking the time to post results.

I have a HP dv7- 1245dx laptop, AMD Turon X2 processor (2.10Mgh dual core), 4 gigs ram, two 320 gig  hard drives dives. I use Drive:C (5400rpm) for my programs including Sonar and Drive:D (7200rpm) for recording (Sonar audio files) and I have a Tascam US-1641 audio interface. I also am wondering if I were to use a SSD for my programs if the increased performance would  be noticeable enough to justify the cost?

I have been using this system for about 6 months with Vista 64 bit & Sonar 8.3 and have had very limited results (lots of drop outs and latency problems). Using DPC latency checker I have noticed that the latency is higher with the USB port that is next to my e-SATA input as opposed to the 2 USB ports on the other side of my laptop.

I have just updated to Windows 7 64bit, Sonar 8.5.2 (64) and updated the us-1641 with Tascams latest drivers. I will say this system works best with this setup but it still has problems. I can only record and playback multiple tracks without using plugins. In order to do a mix with plugins I have to disable/disconnect the us-1641 and use the laptops sound card (IDT Hi-def audio codec). Yes the laptops internal sound card works the best as far as CPU usage and fewer dropouts.

I have tried Vista (32 and 64) and Sonar 8.3 in both 32 and 64 bit installs and the Windows 7 setup I'm now using is the best so far. I would have tried Windows XP but I can't get XP to install on this computer even with the SATA drivers slip-streamed onto the setup disk.

I was thinking Tascam still needs better drivers (I can't even mix with laptop using the Tascam US-1641 and plugins like Amplitude is out of the ?. Hell Session Drummer won't work with the Tascam but it will with the internal sound card, barely)

Or I thought I need a better computer and I thought an Intel I7 quad core processor and 6-8 gig of ram would do it but after reading these post. Now I'm totally lost.
 

I can't afford a new computer but I can get a 60 gig SSD drive with 130 us write and 230 read speed for about $200.00 I know it won't fix the inherent latency problems with these HP laptops but would Sonar run with high latency then?. So does anyone know if that would help my mixing problems. Could I reconfigure my drives to get better performance etc.?

????? Help

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. 'Cause this is truly diving me crazy

I mix Front Of House LIVE and RECORD 24 track shows with an ADK Laptop, RME Fireface 800, Presonus Digimax FS, and 2 ADA8000's.  I use SAC (Software Audio Console) as my FOH Mixer, and use RME Digicheck RECORD as my recorder.  All this on a 2.5 Core 2 Duo cpu, with 2 VST Verbs and 4 VST Delays, each channel has 5 band parametric eq, gate, compressor, 6 sends for FX and 24 sends for Monitors ( I only use 4 Mon. sends).  My cpu  is at less than 50% with the Fireface at 24 bit 44.1, 1x48 buffer setting, the system flat out ROCKS.  It ROCKS because it is a well designed system, with TI chipset, and a tweaked bios.   This is as low or lower a latency as any high end Yamaha, Digico, Soundcraft or Protools Digital mixer can go.  This is what I need to get my work done, and be very portable.  My whole FOH setup goes in my backseat, a 4 space rack, and a  laptop bag.  I could not do this with a USB interface or one of the newer Laptops....they don't cut it, Jim and Scott are right, I know, I am out 2 to 3 times a week doing this.

Hi Scott,
 
Yes it is SWEET..................that's why I bought the second identical Laptop from you, just a little bit more security
 
You should check out SAC with RME and MOTU interfaces, it will knock your socks off.  They have a free demo version on their web site.  It's gonna change LIVE sound for many bands, and if you have an RME interface it's a one shot solution for live mixing and recording on the same computer.  Really.............Check it out

You should check out SAC with RME and MOTU interfaces, it will knock your socks off. They have a free demo version on their web site. It's gonna change LIVE sound for many bands, and if you have an RME interface it's a one shot solution for live mixing and recording on the same computer.

 
Dale... that's a genius solution!
That's as lean/efficient as it gets  
 
I'm going to have to use that myself.

The ADK 1Q MV works great!

I can(and do!) record 20 tracks with it for hours and hours without a hickup, I do use an eSATA external HDD for audio though.

;-)