SteveStrummerUK

Jonbouy


(note vacuum has 2 u's)

So does 'a poor farmer'
 
 

Baa!

I tend to steer clear of criticism because I am not too sure of the artist's intent either...

Nor am I too sure that what I am saying makes any sense...

I have enough issues with my own pieces, let alone someone else's....

let me put it to you this way mike..i think the listener may have been trying to read to much in to what you were saying here.and i know one thing.with no disrespect to anyone else on this forum,your one of the smartest people i know.even though i dont really know you.but your posts are filled with intelect and wisdom.
but maybe in a suttle way you were trying to tell him something..were you?

Katie_Katie


rhynosynth
 
    Katie
    3) I do not post my music, so I think my commentary could be considers pharisaic. 
   
    I could qualify for the pharasaic gold medal then. This one is inside your head only. You are comfortable in your own shoes, right?  
 
Shoes I have a plenty - all quite comfortable.   Yes it is in my head, but more importantly it is in my heart. 
 
I comment/critique/direct every week, face to face, singers and musicians, but they are also on my payroll.  I do it because it is my job or someone solicits my opinion/advice.
 
This is a different environment. 
 
I am not comfortable using this medium for critiquing others' musical work - it is their very personal creations.  I am comfortable with face-to-face critique combined with a show and tell mentoring. I cannot adequately write that I need, lets say, a set of notes to have a unique slur or a particular word needs a variant inflection.   I use vocal keys/inflections and hand gestures or actual examples to get my point across.  Simply put, when I critique I provide guidance, to provide guidance I need to be interpersonal and in-your-space to be effective.  
 
Now, this is just me and my self-limitations, and I don't believe for a moment that my written critiques would be more beneficial than others I have read. 
 
I have listened to some wonderful music on that forum.  Others....not so much.  I have read some wonderful and spot-on critiques in that forum.  Others..... not so much.  And I have read some commentary that was so blunt and without focus and/or esoteric that the I am sure the songwriter was hurt, confused, or both.  I have read others where a lengthy and quite thoughtful critique was posted (and I thought was spot-on) and either the song writer dismissed the comments (sometimes with vitriol) or ignored them to the point of not acknowledging the commenter.  
 
 I suppose such is the nature of that forum and I prefer to abstain - it's just not my gig.
 
For instance.  Below is a critique I wrote back in January.  You will note that although I almost get my point across....I just can't  close the deal.
 
 
From January:
 

I rarely comment on other's music and composition, but your comp had me thinking a bit so I put to paper( screen) just a few of my thoughts.
 
 
Overall, this is a nice piece.  It has a Mike Oldfield genre to it. I will assume those are your fingers on the nylon(?). 
 
I would emphasize the guitar a bit more - mic position, eq, slight delay perhaps, but this is the key instrument to you comp, so I would bring it more to the front and balance it more with the strings.  I think the best example is around 1:17 in your recording.  You have the nice nylon just barely fading out and in comes this (assuming here) a hard Dm. Maybe that is what you want, but it is uncharacteristic of the flow exhibited in the rest of the song.  A transition using, perhaps, a short crescendo from your trailing A note on the guitar (the fifth of the Dm anyway) into full strings.  I am curious where on the guitar you are focusing the mic.
 
Strings are tough, but you can get more with some layering of textures.  Note at about :45 where you have some 1/16s from A to D (again assuming), if you could get those just a bit more staccato it would sound a bit less organ like (the problem with many midi strings). 
 
In the beginning of your comp, where you start with a (assuming) Dm then to Am, Have you thought about putting a cello, maybe on the F or D (3rd, and 5 of the Dm) an octave down or just the A and D octaves down to fill that just a bit?
 
Anyway, as I stated, I like the comp, it has much potential and your nylon work is nice.   
 
Good luck,
Katheirne

  
 
And that, folks, is why I don't critique songs in the forum.

Katie - even if you feel like you didn't quite get your point across, I think this is an absolutlely fantastic critique!  Of course I did not hear the song you're critiquing here, but I think your critique is thoughtful and insightful.  I will always welcome critiques like this on my songs.  please feel free to critique any song I post (provided I even get around to posting another!)

Janet


I agree with Reece, Katie.  I've been blessed to have several people give me very good, clear, detailed crits on many of my pieces.  Anything as detailed as yours would be extremely welcome to me. 

I think it's cool that we have a professional music critiquer (sp?) :) in our midst!  :)

Thanks you both Begle and Janet. 
 
I must put the "professional" tag into perspective.  I critique for selfish reasons, to better my product, to put more butts into the seats, to put more money in my coffers.
 
To me, the term "professional" means paid-for-services.  So, in that perspective, yes I am a professional.  For that matter, a plumber, mechanic, carpenter are all a professionals, and as I am sure most of us have experienced, some are good, some are horrible.  I know many non-professional music folks that would make the professionals seem tone deaf.  Myself included.
 
But, I do thank you for your comments.

Katie - I still think that you would be a valuable asset to the songs forum.  regardless of "professional affiliation" or not.

UbiquitousBubba


Sometimes, those of us without the necessary language, tools, or expertise to provide a meaningful critique of a work of art can provide only our impressions.  (It's good...It's bad...I liked it...It made me hungry...)  Those impressions can be valuable to the artist since that may be an indication of how their work will be perceived by their audience. 

I think those types of critiques are still valuable!

 
While many of us identify very personally with our musical creations, I believe there's a significant percentage of those who post songs who do want honest impressions and opinions about their work, even if some of it may be difficult to hear.

yes, I agree.  but if you don't feel comfortable with that, then don't post in their threads and post in someone else's who is happy for any critique they receive!

bapu

Beagle


Katie - I still think that you would be a valuable asset to the songs forum.  regardless of "professional affiliation" or not.

But Katie is not a plumber, even though the songs forum needs it pipes cleaned occasionally.
(or does it?) 

completely agree.  and sometimes it really needs to be "flushed" of some members and their policing attitudes.

Katie_Katie

To me, the term "professional" means paid-for-services.  So, in that perspective, yes I am a professional.  For that matter, a plumber, mechanic, carpenter are all a professionals, and as I am sure most of us have experienced, some are good, some are horrible.  

I've had mechanics and carpenters critique my music - even doctors and a lawyer too, but never plumbers - they charge too much!

Beagle

craigb

Katie_Katie

To me, the term "professional" means paid-for-services.  So, in that perspective, yes I am a professional.  For that matter, a plumber, mechanic, carpenter are all a professionals, and as I am sure most of us have experienced, some are good, some are horrible.  

I've had mechanics and carpenters critique my music - even doctors and a lawyer too, but never plumbers - they charge too much!

I thought 1/2 of them were deceased?

Now there's a voice I can critique.   Karen had a distinctive and recognizable quality.   Smooth tones, never brassy, an in-your-head kinda quality - Babs and Celine did not have her smoothness.  I remember reading a quote from Elton John where he said her voice was one of the greatest of our lifetime.   I can't argue with that. 
 
 
 
 

Katie_Katie

Now there's a voice I can critique.   Karen had a distinctive and recognizable quality. 
 
 
 

This girl 'Rumer' sounds uncannily like Karen Carpenter;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb00pN1TVw0

Now I have to go out and buy a Carpenters CD!!!

bapu

mike_mccue


Now I have to go out and buy a Carpenters CD!!!

And MC Hammer?
And Nine Inch Nails heels?

He already has nine-inch-heels.  Great calves by the way Mike.

Although I would never mistake her for Karyn, she does have a distinctive and nice tone.

What's her cowbell work like?

Katie_Katie


rhynosynth
 
    Katie
    3) I do not post my music, so I think my commentary could be considers pharisaic. 
   
    I could qualify for the pharasaic gold medal then. This one is inside your head only. You are comfortable in your own shoes, right?  
 
Shoes I have a plenty - all quite comfortable.   Yes it is in my head, but more importantly it is in my heart. 
 
I comment/critique/direct every week, face to face, singers and musicians, but they are also on my payroll.  I do it because it is my job or someone solicits my opinion/advice.
 
This is a different environment. 
 
I am not comfortable using this medium for critiquing others' musical work - it is their very personal creations.  I am comfortable with face-to-face critique combined with a show and tell mentoring. I cannot adequately write that I need, lets say, a set of notes to have a unique slur or a particular word needs a variant inflection.   I use vocal keys/inflections and hand gestures or actual examples to get my point across.  Simply put, when I critique I provide guidance, to provide guidance I need to be interpersonal and in-your-space to be effective.  
 
Now, this is just me and my self-limitations, and I don't believe for a moment that my written critiques would be more beneficial than others I have read. 
 
I have listened to some wonderful music on that forum.  Others....not so much.  I have read some wonderful and spot-on critiques in that forum.  Others..... not so much.  And I have read some commentary that was so blunt and without focus and/or esoteric that the I am sure the songwriter was hurt, confused, or both.  I have read others where a lengthy and quite thoughtful critique was posted (and I thought was spot-on) and either the song writer dismissed the comments (sometimes with vitriol) or ignored them to the point of not acknowledging the commenter.  
 
 I suppose such is the nature of that forum and I prefer to abstain - it's just not my gig.
 
For instance.  Below is a critique I wrote back in January.  You will note that although I almost get my point across....I just can't  close the deal.
 
 
From January:
 

I rarely comment on other's music and composition, but your comp had me thinking a bit so I put to paper( screen) just a few of my thoughts.
 
 
Overall, this is a nice piece.  It has a Mike Oldfield genre to it. I will assume those are your fingers on the nylon(?). 
 
I would emphasize the guitar a bit more - mic position, eq, slight delay perhaps, but this is the key instrument to you comp, so I would bring it more to the front and balance it more with the strings.  I think the best example is around 1:17 in your recording.  You have the nice nylon just barely fading out and in comes this (assuming here) a hard Dm. Maybe that is what you want, but it is uncharacteristic of the flow exhibited in the rest of the song.  A transition using, perhaps, a short crescendo from your trailing A note on the guitar (the fifth of the Dm anyway) into full strings.  I am curious where on the guitar you are focusing the mic.
 
Strings are tough, but you can get more with some layering of textures.  Note at about :45 where you have some 1/16s from A to D (again assuming), if you could get those just a bit more staccato it would sound a bit less organ like (the problem with many midi strings). 
 
In the beginning of your comp, where you start with a (assuming) Dm then to Am, Have you thought about putting a cello, maybe on the F or D (3rd, and 5 of the Dm) an octave down or just the A and D octaves down to fill that just a bit?
 
Anyway, as I stated, I like the comp, it has much potential and your nylon work is nice.   
 
Good luck,
Katheirne

  
 
And that, folks, is why I don't critique songs in the forum.

 That's a very clear cut respectable reply Katie.  I know just from reading your posts you speak your mind freely and are a genuine personality. At least out here anyway.  I also got a feeling you're quite comfy in your shoes/ fuzzy slippers. That was meant as more of a given mutual affirmation to convey my point. Please don't take that as me trying to be doc rhyno or deep or something as I'm not. 
 
  I do still disagree that your comments or anyone else's would not be appreciated. I don't believe it's about redundancy or being more beneficial than others. That's one of the things I like about the forum is that it is rather loose and as previously mentioned,comments range from "cool solo" to "HPF & EQ". Both equally good comments as a perfectly mixed /mastered boring solo/song is still boring (subjective). That said and I stated somewhere above I could care less if someone chooses to comment or not. It's not my decision. I'm responding to the OP which are (and some of your post) based on assumptions on how comments or peoples perception of them will be received. You're right that you do get misunderstood and things can be received the wrong way. But anyone who has followed that forum for a while knows that the norm is a very good spirit. Considering the fact that people are laying down thier art good or bad for commenting from people all over the world and the fact that it contains the positive energy it does, especially on this site as of late is quite a feat.
 
 That's a great comment you have as an example and if there was no reply or if it pissed somebody off and they weren't able to tell you what they appreciated or where they disagree politley too bad for them. But it's easy to tell who the people are out there that would appreciate them. I'm not sure what instruments you play or if you just compose but from the comment I think there are a few regulars out there that would love to engage in detail like that.
  
  You seem like an interesting and jolly fun gal. Thanks for replying