When I started this thread, I was airing a much simpler concern, which I perhaps expressed too obliquely (for which I apologise). Put simply, the frequency of updates to Reaper deters me from considering it as a feasible alternative to Sonar. Some seem impressed by that, citing it as evidence of responsiveness, "listening to users" or whatever. IMO, the burden of such frequent updates is unacceptable because at the least they have to be verified (even if they are all fault-free, meaning that they introduce no new faults of themselves, not that they fix every known issue). Frankly, although I always look forward to new releases of Sonar, I know each one will be followed by a period of lower productivity as I understand the implications for workflow and learn new methods. Twice or thrice a year is as often as I want to go through that.

The comments made in this thread about the potential fragility of Cockos as a one-man outfit I find hard to believe to be honest, but assuming that they are true, that would also make me reluctant to take Reaper as a serious contender.

The powerful thing that Reaper is doing is to challenge the received wisdom of the DAW industry about value and price points. I don't think that Sonar is expensive, but it looks so next to Reaper, and it is not at all difficult to see how that might influence first-time buyers and build a large user base for Reaper. In reality, both cost next-to-nothing compared to the other costs that most of us seem to take in our strides, and allowing for the "extras" of soft synths and plugs in Sonar actually soon levels that apparent difference. I think it will be interesting to see how the established players respond, particularly in the light of Apple's decision to pitch Logic at a radically lower price level than before. I guess the worst outcome would be for Cakewalk to decide to follow the market down, reduce prices, reduce support, homogenise the product, and lose its own rep for distinctive support and performance ... oh, is that why tech support is getting so much criticism lately?

I don't think I would accept this kind of language

Yes - describing anyone as "corporate" is calumny indeed

Yes - describing anyone as "corporate" is calumny indeed

That hurts, no? I mean, people call me a warez prostitute every other day, but noone who values his expensive dental work would ever dare calling me 'corporate'.

ORIGINAL: vicsant
Well, he's got millions in the bank....so he doesn't need the job....and if he continues to improve on Reaper, all sales revenue goes to him

well vicsant, when the trial period finishs it has no nag screens etc. I can't honestly see all of the users buying it, as some won't (thats the reality of it). Maybe that'll change that in the future. I had a round up of the best freeware synths etc. Karma fx USED to be freeware, but got voted best freeware. I noticed that changed soon after it got best freeware "odd that".

ORIGINAL: DaneStewart
I have only one word.....WOZNIAK.

It's funny to mention that to apple users, a lot don't know who he is.

Although if I could hire a dream team to work on a DAW with vst's etc. I'd be including Dr. Gerhard Lengeling (the guy who was involved with c-lab / notator etc) , René (mr z3ta) and Urs Heckmann (mr zebra) to name but 3.

The audio engine is the main thing though with any DAW, my friend used to complain about the "live" one until the most recent update and now he's happy. Although to test any of them takes more than 1 hour.

Nice post, Undetow. I didn't have the patience to deconstruct AJ's McHatchet job on Justin Frankel. Good going.

ORIGINAL: AJ_0000

although I think anyone who uses MIDI to any extent will find themselves extremely limited by it.

Reaper lacks in MIDI functionality while Sonar has tons of it. But Sonar's MIDI implementation is primitive and cumbersome and undercuts its own potential.

Would I choose to use Reaper for MIDI over Sonar? Not today, no. But how heavily would I bet that will still be true in two years? Hmmm let's see... Sonar will probably ask me to bet roughly $179 twice between now and then, yet I'm fairly confident today that those bets will not pay off -- Sonar 7 was the long awaited big MIDI upgrade and it was ultimately an uneven, too-little effort.

The advantage that new companies developing new designs have is that they can learn from the mistakes and reap the experiences of others. The disadvantage of older companies building on legacy products is that can hardly learn from their own mistakes and experiences.

Of course the advantage the older companies have is market position, brand equity, and built in user base. But an advantage of smaller companies is they have little to lose through innovation. And they can always sell out to the biggies, who hae the advantage of money (or the money of their major stakeholders.)

Off hand, with the possible exception of Audio Snap (the origins of which I don't know) the most innovative things to hit Sonar in the last half decade is V-Vocal, a third party add-in; and the RGC and Sonitus suites of instruments and fx, both of which were acquired from small time "garage" operations. All of those are welcome additions, but are indeed in the category of "additions" of the plugin variety. Direct DAW functionality, and especially its interface, has changed in only minor ways. Load up Sonar 3 or 4 and you're still basically right at home: Some features will be missing, but most of the speedbumps, inconsistencies, and cramped semi-functional dialog boxes will be right where they remain today.

Whatever. Sonar is my platform of choice. I want to see it improved. Using Reaper (to the little extent I do, as I'm not prepared for a full scale platform switch) makes me want to see Sonar improved even more. One-hour chip-on-the-shoulder "reviews" can't do justice to any DAW.

As for Reaper, I'd be quite surprised if it doesn't in one way or another... in one form or another... under its current name or another... wind up wholly owned by someone bigger... and probably sooner than later. That is clearly the path Cockos is on, and a path Justin Frankel is quite familiar with. If that turns out to be CW (and I am NOT predicting that) that would be great and I'm confident the resulting product could leave Sonar and Project5 in the bit bin.

ORIGINAL: UnderTow

ORIGINAL: HotCoollMusicGirl

Nice post, Undetow. I didn't have the patience to deconstruct AJ's McHatchet job on Justin Frankel. Good going.

For the record, it was Resonant Order's and not AJ's post.

UnderTow

Ooops! You're right. Apologies to you, AJ and RO. :)

ORIGINAL: HotCoollMusicGirl

ORIGINAL: AJ_0000

although I think anyone who uses MIDI to any extent will find themselves extremely limited by it.

Reaper lacks in MIDI functionality while Sonar has tons of it. But Sonar's MIDI implementation is primitive and cumbersome and undercuts its own potential.

Please explain how.

Would I choose to use Reaper for MIDI over Sonar? Not today, no. But how heavily would I bet that will still be true in two years? Hmmm let's see... Sonar will probably ask me to bet roughly $179 twice between now and then, yet I'm fairly confident today that those bets will not pay off -- Sonar 7 was the long awaited big MIDI upgrade and it was ultimately an uneven, too-little effort.

The advantage that new companies developing new designs have is that they can learn from the mistakes and reap the experiences of others. The disadvantage of older companies building on legacy products is that can hardly learn from their own mistakes and experiences.

Of course the advantage the older companies have is market position, brand equity, and built in user base. But an advantage of smaller companies is they have little to lose through innovation. And they can always sell out to the biggies, who hae the advantage of money (or the money of their major stakeholders.)

Off hand, with the possible exception of Audio Snap (the origins of which I don't know) the most innovative things to hit Sonar in the last half decade is V-Vocal, a third party add-in; and the RGC and Sonitus suites of instruments and fx, both of which were acquired from small time "garage" operations. All of those are welcome additions, but are indeed in the category of "additions" of the plugin variety. Direct DAW functionality, and especially its interface, has changed in only minor ways. Load up Sonar 3 or 4 and you're still basically right at home: Some features will be missing, but most of the speedbumps, inconsistencies, and cramped semi-functional dialog boxes will be right where they remain today.

Whatever. Sonar is my platform of choice. I want to see it improved. Using Reaper (to the little extent I do, as I'm not prepared for a full scale platform switch) makes me want to see Sonar improved even more. One-hour chip-on-the-shoulder "reviews" can't do justice to any DAW.

As for Reaper, I'd be quite surprised if it doesn't in one way or another... in one form or another... under its current name or another... wind up wholly owned by someone bigger... and probably sooner than later. That is clearly the path Cockos is on, and a path Justin Frankel is quite familiar with. If that turns out to be CW (and I am NOT predicting that) that would be great and I'm confident the resulting product could leave Sonar and Project5 in the bit bin.

Reaper is a dramatically inferior product in comparison to any major DAW program you want to name. As I said before, the perception that it is somehow magical in its resource usage is directly related to the massive number of features legitimate programs have that Reaper does not.

I honestly don't understand your position. You seem to have an extremely low opinion of Sonar, and an extremely high opinion of Reaper, and yet you claim to still use Sonar. Why?

A slightly different perspective...

Reaper is cool! I downloaded it and gave it a spin. I've also been playing with Audacity and Ardour (on Linux, I keep a Linux box in the studio to experiment with things like C-Sound<G>). I regularly (too regularly) work with Cubase and Pro-Tools, and I get some cockpit time with Sequoia.

They are all cool tools! I stick with Sonar for several reasons:

1) I like the company. I am currently doing battle with Adobe to try to get my copy of Audition V1 installed on my new machine. I don't use it often, but it does come in handy from time to time. More to the point, they are obnoxious and arrogant, and if they ever thought they'd see another penny from me they are seriously deluded. I used to think that Waves was the worst vendor in our little niche, but the morons at Adobe have hung up on me twice, and I hadn't gotten around to telling them that they are morons yet... I was actually pretty polite!

2) Reaper is not feature rich, at least not with respect to the features that I use. That's a problem<G>!

3) I think what Justin is doing is admirable, but I make part of my living using a computer in my studio. I need software tools that I believe will still be here a year from now. This rather jaundiced view of the world is partly the result of having invested a lot of time and money in the Amiga and it's studio tools, and ending up an orphan. And there is no guarantee that Cakewalk will survive forever, but if I had to bet one way or the other I'd bet they will be around a long time.

About the only things I can think of that would cause me to switch platforms (after considering both time and money to do so) would be:

a) An open architecture similar to the one that Bars&Pipes provided. Granted, theirs was MIDI only, and doing that same thing with audio would be challenging. Still, the flexibility was wonderful. And to give Cakewalk their due, they've gotten closer and closer over the years. I think software based synths, both DirectX and VST may have been the final nail in that particular coffin because now the primary engine needs to know what the plug-in is doing, and that's not actually possible.

b) An XML link between a platform optimized for sequencing and a platform optimized for notation. The key is that both platforms need to retain the information that is specific to them, while at the same time allowing the other program to make changes. Sounds simple when you say it like that eh?

Beyond that, there are some tricks that Sequoia and Pro-Tools can do on the audio side that are pretty slick, but since I don't work that way they are not a temptation.

In the old days I used to maintain multiple platforms for different tasks. I had four (how dumb) audio editors, two MIDI sequencers, and two notation tools. It became a nightmare because I never really became proficient with any of them, and I was spending a fortune on updates and upgrades. These days I use Sonar as my primary tool, Finale for notation, Sound Forge for detailed audio editing, and CDArchitect for CD buring. I do still have Wavelab and SampleWrench installed. There are some edits that are just easier to make in Wavelab, and looping samples for old hardware samples is a breeze in SampleWrench. I probably won't upgrade either of them in the future, but rather continue to wean myself off of them.

I still hope that Reaper continues to grow, and I'll watch it, and cheer for it, from the sidelines.

Bill

ORIGINAL: wst3
A slightly different perspective...

/.../

...I need software tools that I believe will still be here a year from now. This rather jaundiced view of the world is partly the result of having invested a lot of time and money in the Amiga and it's studio tools, and ending up an orphan. And there is no guarantee that Cakewalk will survive forever, but if I had to bet one way or the other I'd bet they will be around a long time.

Nothing jaundiced about it: think of it as making a living via the "Godfather Principle" -- "Nothing personal, strictly business."

I personally am a "tweaker" at heart: for me, it's fun to experiment with different software and hardware, and see how far I can push my system's performance and keep it stable.

Professionally... as the chair of our United Methodist conference's Communications Board, I have churches coming to me for recommendations on setting up things like audio systems and a/v ministries. These folks need solutions that work 99.44% of the time, and can be used for a long time, as many of our churches don't have the financial wherewithal to upgrade every year or two. So, I try to keep tabs on what is working well on the smaller end of the broadcast and recording industries because that is what these folks will in all likelihood will be shopping for.

Nothing against Reaper, or any other of the smaller outfits. Just my .02 of local currency.

I downloaded Reaper last month just cause of all the talk here on the forum and a couple of weeks later bought it. I'm mostly all audio so am not well versed in midi but for me Reaper is a blast compared to Sonar. When we're talking CPU usage it's the tortoise and the hare scenario. For example, with identical tracks and using Cakewalk plug ins, studio instruments and session drummer, Sonar shows cpu use of 45%, Reaper 16%, all my Wave plug -ins work, additional instances of GT3 or Amplitube would crash Sonar instantly, Reaper totally smooth sailing. That makes for efficeint enjoyable sessions. I pretty sure I'll be back to Sonar if they ever decide to fix their audio engine problems cause it is the first program I ever learned but for now Reaper is doing it for me.

OT, but in my (granted - short) test drive of Reaper, it wouldn't let me install/use Cakewalk plugins, saying I needed Cakewalk's permission or something. Everything I have from Cakewalk is %100 legal, paid for, and registered. IF - and only IF - I wanted to try Reaper for a test project, how does one use, for example, Perfect Space. Or for that matter, something like Amplitube or any other third party plugin? Or is that verbotten?

Thansk in advance.

Hmm... odd... I found that most, but not all, of the Cakewalk plugins could open in Reaper, but I was unable to get any of the Reaper plugins to open in Sonar. Couldn't figure this out, cos each program seemed to be pointed to the right folders. Anyone know why that might be? I'd like to try some of the Reapers in Sonar.

The Sonitus Compressor doesn't open in Reaper, or even show up in the list, yet all the others do. Perfect Space, no problem. Here's a screen shot of Perfect Space and bunch of others that I just dragged in semi-randomly. (The Sonitus fx were all dragged in at once, by multi-selecting them.) Note the menu options, which include the ability to save that set of fx as a chain.



I know, I probably shouldn't have posted this scandalous image of interspecies crossbreeding... but I'm bad.

I probably shouldn't have posted this scandalous image of interspecies crossbreeding.

You naughty, naughty girl - spankspankspankspank. This is from my Band in a Box - it replaces a Roland synth.

Still haven't scratched all the possibilities in the 2007 version, and the new one has multi-styles, which sounds yummy, but I'm in no rush, I'll wait until we've seen a few upgrades.

With the TTS-1 instead of the standard synth, it's pretty stable - without, not so stable, I found. But that's easily fixed.

updates dont have to be "FIXES"
they can just be some new additions to the software that are sooo vital to wait for a new version and so small to be included ONLY in a new version...

like making an update for SONAR 7 that makes it ... say like... whatever.... can't think of something but there has to be something i want... [greedy look]