Control voltage (CV and Gate) has grown on me since I started building analog synths but no way that I'm aware to interface a PC without MIDI to CV converter. MIDI is a technical standard for a communication protocol so it is here to stay.

MacFurse
 
for some time I've heard nothing good about midi and Sonar, only bad. From almost every aspect, it cops a bagging.

 
Not sure who you have been listening to, but the MIDI implementation that Cakewalk has developed is easily one of the best ever seen on a PC.  There are many who have been lobbying for improvements, but definitely not bagging it!
 
Cakewalk, Cubase, and Logic are the main DAWs that earned their pedigrees as MIDI sequencers for PC and/or Mac platforms, and that later added DAW capabilities.  So they are MIDI at the core.  Other DAWs came along later that were focused exclusively on audio recording, but were forced to bolt MIDI on later.  IMHO they were late to the game and never quite "got it" as far as deep MIDI support was concerned.  But I assume that the successful ones will catch up eventually...
 

I really wanted to know whether the main users of Sonar want the new owners to push the boundaries of midi within their new platform, to take it to the forefront of DAWS. Do that, and maybe this DAW can finally make it to the 'pro' world, where it currently isn't. It needs an area to shine. This thread may help in highlighting just that.
 

I agree.  Keep pushing the boundaries! And there are a few pros using Sonar, it's just not highly publicized. 
 
Good things will come! 

Stay.

To the OP,
 
I didn't quote you since your reply to me was on page one.  You had mentioned that I was being a little dismissive.  I do apologize, that wasn't my intention.  I was thinking you meant MIDI as a whole...when you meant more for MIDI Editing within a DAW.  Please accept my apology. 
 
I agree with the general consensus though that MIDI needs to be included in any modern daw (as with at least some sort of ability to use MIDI Editing).  

When I play out live, I actually use Sonar with it's MIDI capabilities along with Komplete Kontrol Controller Editor to get my sounds.  I Create a playlist within the Controller Editor.  I have every sound setup as a separate MIDI channel within Sonar.  For each song, I hit the "next button" on my Komplete Kontrol which then advanced the playlist in the editor, which then refers to one of the 16 tracks I have setup in Sonar for my sounds.  It can also manage splits and everything.  If I need more than 16 different sounds during a set, than that is where the playlist comes into play with Sonar as well.  

I use MIDI extensively in my recordings as well for programming my drums, and any sequencer patterns I want to create.  I often edit the MIDI (albeit simple editing) for velocity and various mods.  

Now, I do do electronic music (hehe I said do do), but I also do rock as well.  I am not a guitar player, but use Impact Soundworks Shreddage Guitar, bass and drums.  Their guitar is so stinking realistic, I have had guitar players ask me who played the guitar and be blown away when they found out it was synth.  I do a LOT of MIDI editing for guitar work as Impact Soundworks guitar is not really an easy guitar to play live as it triggers on various MIDI CCs and velocities, so you typically have to go back in and edit various things to be within the trigger points.  Some of the triggers have wide ranges, but some of the ranges in and of themselves have different articulations within the same range.  (For example, harmonics might kick in with the modwheel between 70-100, but the higher the number, the more pronounced the sound).  So yes, I do a lot of editing.  They even state that the guitar synth is not ideal for playing live, and is more for recording. With Sonar, the editing is super easy.  I also use Studio One, and while some people think there is absolutely no editing for MIDI, they would be wrong. I do find it easier in Sonar though. 

If DAWS stopped supporting MIDI, then it is likely I wouldn't be nearly as productive. 

I was put through Pro Tools Training to be a certified Avid trainer while teaching sound engineering at College.  After doing that and as someone who owns a hardware based synth system I actually found the midi in Pro Tools to be acceptable and it would have done the job had I switched.  But in the end I stayed on Studio One and happier for it.  Pro Tools don't always make it intuitive or easy.  But you are basically correct in that it is one DAW where the midi features are lesser compared to others.
 
Sonar was as far as I remember not considered the midi king back at the time.  It was Cubase and Logic.  Both of those programs handle midi real well in fact.  They were both in existence for 6 to 7 years before Cakewalk started.  I started with Steinberg Pro 24 for the Atari too.  That was pretty cool at the time.  Sonar has also had a long association with midi though for sure. 
 
If you connect certain midi hardware to either of them something else comes into play which many others don't do.  Its called LTB (Linear Time Base) with Cubase and AMT for Logic. (Active Midi transmission)  Logic is still a killer midi machine.
 
With LTB or AMT, midi notes are sent early to the interface and held up there and released in such a way as to all midi note-ons being lined up timing wise over the multiple midi out ports. (e.g. 8 midi note ons could be sent at exactly the same time, not sequentially as it normally would.  In dense passages midi note-ons would also be spread out slightly and sent a little early to keep out of the way of other notes)  Timing across all the ports is tightened up by roughly a factor of 10.  I have experienced this as well from both of those programs and it really improves things big time.  The timing for a large group of multi timbral synths parts is tightened up by a large factor.  Sonar does not have as do many others, a unique midi timing system that does this sort of thing.
 
LTB and AMT are often not well known midi features.  The timing rivals the tightness of the older CV and Gate protocol.  I had all that too with many analog synths and modular stuff.  I was using CV/Gate before midi was invented.  Especially with step sequencers.  The timing was pretty damn tight back then I can assure you.
 
But the Midi to CV/Gate converters did flow out in the mid 80's too.  I had several of them driving a bunch of instruments that only had CV/Gate inputs.  With Logic running AMT for me it worked out super well and was ultra reliable.  The converter I had also offered a third output (second CV output) for each channel and it was relative to velocity.  So velocity sensitivity could be patched into an analog synth sound rather easily. 
 
 

Thedoccal
Midi won't work for online collaboration.  Audio only.
But midi works for creating what will end up being that collaborative audio file.
So midi will stay...at least in the Sonar version that Bandlab adopts for it's platform.

Depending on what you mean by online collaboration, this is not necessarily true. I have collaborated many times using MIDI.  If the person you are working with has the same MIDI instruments, not a problem at all to send them the file, then they can work on it, and send it back.  

If they do not have the same instruments, still not a problem...you just say "Track 1 = Piano, Track 2 = Bass", etc.  They can then setup something close or similar on their end, create their track and send it back.  I've done it plenty of times. 

Jeff Evans
Sonar was as far as I remember not considered the midi king back at the time.  It was Cubase and Logic.  Both of those programs handle midi real well in fact.  They were both in existence for 6 to 7 years before Cakewalk started.  I started with Steinberg Pro 24 for the Atari too.  That was pretty cool at the time.  Sonar has also had a long association with midi though for sure. 

Cubase appears to have it's start in 1984 on the Commodore 64 with Pro-16 by Steinberg. The Atari ST was released in 1985 so that is the earliest for C-Lab Creator (which eventually became Logic). Cakewalk version 1.0 was in 1987 on MS-DOS machines. So at best Cubase has a three year longer history, Logic, has two years, over Cakewalk. Cakewalk and then SONAR have always had MIDI. There were other Cakewalk branded products that might have skimped on MIDI, but SONAR doesn't skimp.
 

abacab
 Selecting instruments, setting up mixes and effects.  I have collaborated this way sending GM ideas back and forth and then at the right time replacing the GM sounds with better quality sounds.  It is a good format for commercial midi files of covers.  Many midi files setup and playback perfectly. 
 
GM sounds can be edited too and dropped into the music anywhere. 
 

I believe Cubase can also open GM in the included Halion Sonic, but I have not tried that.


Yes, that is correct.

Stay

  I have an original Korg MS-20, Poly 6, Poly 61, and M1, and a Yamaha DX7 all dead now.
I also have an old Roland Super JV-1080, ROMed out to the max with all expansion card slots filled. An old Juno (retired), and a PMA-5 portable 8 track sequencer Sound Canvas module that I've rocked many a solo performance with over the years. The Roland PMA-5 can store 20 songs and can run off batteries for about 12 hours of continuous use. All my old Roland's still work great. The old Juno still work but is retired because C4 key lost touch sensitivity.
 I also have an old Kawai K 11 (circa 1990) in excellent shape which is my absolute favorite very high quality sounding 32 bit GM digital hardware synth in the studio to date. It actually has two 16 bit sounds engines and 2 MIDI ports. It's still one of my go to choices for realistic piano and horns.
 But what makes the K 11 really shine is the feel and action. It's everybody's who has ever touched it favorite choice to use as keyboard controller for playing ANY synth.
 It has an extremely wide and smooth velocity range giving it a very natural feel from soft to loud, which makes it also an excellent choice for banging out and sequencing sampled drum tracks with Addictive Drums 2.
 I've been creating drum tracks on MIDI keyboards for decades. Thank God the bakers at XLN Audio has the grace and insight to included the standard GM MIDI map for drums, or I probably wouldn't have realized how good AD 2 and their sampling techniques are.
 Bye bye ToonTracks it was great and much fun while it lasted.. ;-p
 And THANKYOU Cakewalk for including Addictive Drums with SONAR Platinum
 
 I really like the Cakewalk TTS-1 DXi synth, especially being that it has such a wide list selection of varieties of Roland Sound Canvas GM/GS version libraries. Very customizable and specific to dozens of Roland synth voicings put out through the years. I've been using the TTS-1 as the center piece for all my GM collaborations since it was introduced with SONAR 4 PE, and still use it today.
 I also love the fact that it can be configured to 4 separate audio output channels giving it that much more flexibility and precise control over the sound of each voice or instruments using EQ and or any other audio FX you choose.
 I never patch more then one voice per output for optimal sound quality, no need to when I can just open another instance of the TTS-1.
 And just because you can play perform 16 different parts on a GM synth doesn't mean you should, because the more voices and parts being pumped through any synth's sound engine, be it software or hardware the more the over all sound quality degrades.
 Of course distortion has it's place in many situations, but SONAR has a host of audio FX that will nasty things up in a very musical way.
 
 The GM spec is most likely the most important key to successful MIDI collaboration that ever happened.
 Developed in collaboration with Roland, Cakewalk, Microsoft, and defined by IEEE for a standard set of 128 algorithms for program and control changes.
 It's the closest way to get all synth manufacturers on the same page by defining a specific set RPNs (registered parameter numbers), and leaving enough room with NRPNs (non registered parameter numbers) for manufacturer proprietary system exclusive information that simply gets ignored by synths that don't support or understand it.
 
And I gotta give BIG PROPS to Rapture Pro, what with being Dimension Pro and Rapture bundled up together in one Killa arse powerful GUI interface is well........... Not GM, but its ANY type of synth you want it to be. I have all the Dimension Pro expansion packs, plus several I purchased from Digital Sound Factory.
 If I was ever forced to chose between using any one synth, Rapture Pro would be the no brainer choice for the all in one Superstar.
 Now I know there are many here who would say something like; "Oh dude, you really need to try N.I.'s Kontakt!" and I know it's good just by the things I've heard from it.
 But I don't need to try it because I don't need it and I'm already familiar with what I have..

The question whether MIDI should be dropped is... curious, to say the least.
 
The simple facts of the matter right now is that you pretty much can't do contemporary music production without it. Whether you're using virtual instruments, control surfaces or hardware automation, you're pretty much bound to be using MIDI for it. Any DAW that aspires towards professional use simply has to have it.
 
Now, I appreciate that these days MIDI looks more than a bit clunky and dated - mostly because of its limited resolution. Nevertheless, it's the only thing pretty much everyone is guaranteed to understand, so it's what we gotta work with.
 

Thedoccal
Midi won't work for online collaboration.  Audio only.
But midi works for creating what will end up being that collaborative audio file.
So midi will stay...at least in the Sonar version that Bandlab adopts for it's platform.

I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, Thedoccal, but that's not even wrong. MIDI is not only perfectly suited to online collaboration, but it facilitates certain things that you simply wouldn't be able to do otherwise. MIDI allows us to separate the composition/performance data from the actual sounds and that means the composer or performer does not have to have the best possible sound generators on hand or be proficient in getting superior audio.
 
To give an example: currently I have a couple of projects going where I get the MIDI data, transform it to suit my choice of instruments (this applies to drums especially, but I also do stuff like chart generation in order to record live guitar parts etc.) and work from there. Were I to be forced to use audio only, the results would either be inferior (being stuck with a cake I can't unbake) or I'd have a lot more work on my hands (needing to pick apart the parts I want to reprogram or re-record by ear).
 
Frankly, I can think of very few collaborative scenarios where MIDI is present and I would not want to use it. The ability to get inside the performance and to swap out tone generators for what works best in the mix is just too valuable. Even if my collaborator can provide me with excellent renders that would be used in their audio form, I still might want the MIDI data for additional layering and such.
 
The only reason I could see for dropping MIDI support is if a better global standard comes along.

Re: Midi - should it go or should it stay ?

 
Why do you or why would you have you choose? 
 
Is there a reason why you seem a need to choose??

Why is everyone rushing in to defend MIDI as if there is any universe where MIDI would be removed or omitted from any DAW?

My opinion is that the last version of the MIDI editor in Sonar Platinum became harder to use than the way it was before. At least in the way that you were able to view tracks, and how you picked which ones you wanted to see. I saw a few complaints about this online after it was changed. Wasn't a show stopper though as you could still edit your midi tracks. Hopefully that came out right...
 
After Gibson announced it was killing off Cakewalk, I invested in Pro Tools and a lot of education to make sure I could use it to its fullest. I found that PT has excellent Midi editing features but is no where near as stable as Sonar on the PC platform. Again, my opinion is that midi editing in PT is actually better and easier to do than in Sonar. That's about the only feature that I can honestly say I use constantly where PT beats Sonar. Sonar wins at just about everything else, including it's Midi event list and how you can edit that. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking PT. It's a great program, but Sonar Platinum is much nicer to use - not to mention that its interface looks so much better.
 
As long as I don't have to sink a chunk of money into a new Bandlab/Cakewalk/Whatever It Will Be Called product, I will gladly switch back from Pro Tools. You can do some amazing things with Pro Tools, but same with Sonar Platinum and you didn't have to fight with the issues PT has on the PC platform. I think that's where cakewalk missed a marketing opportunity. It is as feature rich as PT, but no where near as buggy. Plus, Cakewalk support was a lot faster too.

Interesting reading Steev's mention of the Kawai K11.  I have a Kawai K5000W which is the much later and the most powerful version of this synth.  It has both Additive and PCM based engines.  Two midi ins and two stereo outs too. Can be treated as two separate synths in one. Not many can do this.
 
The Additive side sounds amazing.  I have found many patches for it on line, probably all of them.  They are wonderful.  Not too much bottom end wither.  Many Kawai layers can be had with little build up in the low end.  The K5000 can do 6 layers per note and there are 6 effects processors too.  I have a Doepfer Pocket Dial which has 16 endless knobs on it controlling the 16 most important parameters of an additive sound.  So editing is active all the time.  
 
The PCM side is very good too loaded up with a huge sample base.  689 waveforms.  It sounds way different to the additive side.  Quite earthy and organic at times. It layers well with the additive sounds too.  There is also a built in GM sound engine with its waveforms and patches. K500W also features sequencing options. 
 
The white keys are longer than normal and have proper lead weights under mine.  The action is real nice and it is very good to play.   Most of all it has a range of sounds including lush and detailed and complex too.  It works well with the mod wheel and after touch.  It is one beautiful instrument.
 
I also have a Roland JD800 and it is completely different but also quite stunning.  That and the Kawai dance together rather beautifully. The JD can be super analog at times but super digital at other times.  It is like having two synths in one as well. Between the two of them I can get 4 distinct textures.