vintagevibe
Why is everyone rushing in to defend MIDI as if there is any universe where MIDI would be removed or omitted from any DAW?

Exactly, Vibe. Save your fingertips. Midi isn't going anywhere.

abacab

BenMMusTech
I mostly use Notion 6 score editor for writing midi, I then import the midi into sonar for further refinement. Writing music with silly coloured blobs pails in comparison to writing with proper music notation.

The first time I opened Notion I wondered where the MIDI editor with the silly colored blobs was located.  
 
Still looking...
 
At least it does export MIDI...

+1, I am still getting up to speed with Notion 6, but was pleasantly surprised by its ability to host VST(i)s, making it a nice lightweight host for MIDI arrangements. It will transfer data to Studio One 3 as MIDI, but I also cannot find any way to adjust the MIDI inside Notion 6 itself (although there are references to this). Where this trips me up is with keyswitches for articulations, and that I would rather just adjust note velocity the same as in a PRV. Hopefully these will come online at some point soon (or if it already exists that I can find it!).

Steev
This is probably one of the most interesting forum discussions I've participated in anywhere in quite some time on any topic.
 
And I find it hard to believe one of the most seriously productive pieces of MIDI gear for any and all DAW users  could ever possibly want and need hasn't even been mentioned yet. The Universal Control Surface, a.k.a. the ultimate mixing experience of using a MIDI DAW controller.
 
 I love my Behringer X Touch, when I die I want to be buried with it.
 And SONAR has very good reliable, and stable support for using the X Touch with Mackie protocol, although fairly sketchy documentation concerning the what button does what in control panel section.
 This documentation could certainly be improved.
 This problem long running exists for all DAW's with the exception of Apple Logic for owners of both Mackie and Behringer control surfaces, both of which are nearly identical.
 Though Mackie had the insight to provide templates for various DAW's shipped with their DAW controllers Behringer, as with typical Behringer support refuses to even acknowledge the problem exists.
 However, the difference in price as well as other refinements makes it well worth to do the extra work of finding and creating your own template or simply labeling the buttons with a label maker as I did.
 
And one major added new feature refinement the X Touch has over the Mackie is the addition of an Ethernet port.
I would love, love, LOVE to see SONAR offer support for this because it would offer the tightest integration for X Touch control over not only SONAR, but digital mixer/audio interfaces like a Behringer X Air series digital mixer/audio interface can capture and send up to 32 audio tracks directly into SONAR by either thru a WiFi router or  a single Cat6 Ethernet cable, and even control detailed customized MIDI control over light shows for live performances.
 BTW, for anyone who didn't realize it, you can record, edit, automate and save a light show sequence to a MIDI track(s), just like you would your favorite synth performance.
Add Behringer's Ethernet support to SONAR could most likely take an ENORMOUS market share from Presonus's StudioLive, and another BTW, StudioLive works great with Macs, not so great with Windows machines.
 
I'd also like to give a 2 thumbs up Salute to Cakewalk Forum member Azslow3 for his in depth insightful contributions to this forum on the subject of MIDI DAW controllers. He truly deserves a medal, and even a pay check for his most generous and selfless support.

I agree very much with this^^
Imagine having him on the new team?

My 1 cent opinion: take a away midi and I leave. I spend much of my time editing and writing in staff view. What I love about Sonar is that I feel comfortable using, mixing, and blending audio and midi. I’ve been using Cakewalk since the floppy disks days and spend must of my time writing music and enjoy figuring out new techniques I learn from this group. Midi is still a mystery to me, but somehow it works for me.

I’m slowly becoming an old guy that can’t seem to view music without actual black notes on white paper. It just makes sense to me. Guitar tab took a year before it made sense, but I never see a future for piano roll.

I sure hope the BandLab people don’t take us in the wrong direction. I just love the path we were on.

Faza_TCM

jimfogle
The next generation of MIDI is arriving NOW!  New specifications were released at 2018 NAMM.  The next generation is called MIDI-CI and is an addition to the original MIDI 1.0 specification.  That means anything based on MIDI-CI will be backward compatible with MIDI 1.0.  You can read more about MIDI-CI here:  https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-manufacturers-association-mma-adopts-midi-capability-inquiry-midi-ci-specification.

Now this is excellent news!
 
My previous comment on the datedness of MIDI mostly had to do with the word sizes, which are all too reflective of a bygone era. Hell, I remember 80s computing well enough, but I can't think of anything other than MIDI that still seems stuck in that era.
 
Looking over the next-gen protocol specs, I'm feeling not a bit hyped. The big question is: how soon will we see some implementations?

Now this is HUGE News, and in my opinion the most significant step forward since the introduction of the GM spec.
 A GIANT leap forward expanding and cementing MIDI'S place in not only music production, but paving the way for easy integration of many technologies we never dreamed of doing or playing well together as on one team.
 
 In simply laymen's terms, where GM defined a certain list of common instruments and parameters to be used, MIDI-CI greatly streamlines and expands at the same time, and simplifies the whole process by having all MIDI devices and software identify, shake hands and introduce themselves to each other before the show even begins.
 
This is a result of what happens when the great minds of Roland, Yamaha, and Korg get together and stop the politics of competing with each other, and put their heads together to come up with a solution that helps EVERYBODY!
 And making everyone's life sooooooooooooo much easier.
 And what's really hilarious about it is, the typical DAW user won't even know it's happening. 
 
 Most DAW users don't have any idea or even a clue as to what MIDI does and how deeply ingrained it is into the heart of every DAW, even if the DAW gives you limited to no editing control over it.
 Like Pro Tools. Contrary to popular belief, Pro Tools can support the most robust MIDI editing suites, the best your money can buy! 
 And the more you add on, the more you pay and the better it gets. That's just Apple's and AVID's logic for survival.
 Without MIDI under the hood just like every other DAW ever made, Pro Tools would never had existed, let alone evloved.
 
 As an old school MIDI guy from the 80's starting out learning with Roland's MRC MIDI language using a Roland MC-500 sequencer that didn't even ship with a demo song, I was forced to start on page one of the User Manual, and constantly warned NOT to skip over any single page or chapter until I understood all the steps of control change commands, Program Change commands, and procedures for setting and changing tempo and note resolution, velocity, and after touch, and the very clear definitions and differences between what MIDI "notes" are and what "musical" notes are.
One musical note = at least 5 MIDI notes,= On-Velocity-Key-Resolution-Off.
Using "Pitch Bend" and "Modulation" controllers will easily and quickly send 100's of MIDI notes to one musical note.
And the differences between MIDI "tracks" and MIDI "channels". ONE MIDI=16 MIDI channels.
 
The Roland MC 500 is a 4 track MIDI sequencer that can run 64 MIDI channels, meaning it can play up to 64 instrument parts, with a maximum of 100,000 MIDI notes per song.
 
 100K MIDI notes may sound like a lot, but you'd be surprised out how fast you can run out of MIDI notes before finishing a 3 minute song if you don't read and understand the chapter on how to create and store "LOOPS" for recurring sections of verse, chorus, bridge sections, etc, an early process which would later become known as using "Cakewalk Groove Clips" in SONAR, which were more often then not, confused with ACID loops to the average SONAR user.
  Without a demo to hear the MC 500 sat curiously on the desk, silent and mysterious.  But contained a very detailed and complete course in MIDI sequencing in place of a demo. After about a month of sometimes rather frustrating study I started to develop a clear understanding of what went on underneath the hood of a sequencer.
 About 2 weeks after that I completed my dissertation for the rather grueling Roland MIDI course.
 Note for NOTE and without ever hearing it before, I step wrote an exacting MIDI performance of Johan Sabastian Bach's "Little Fugue in G Minor" into the MC 500 specifically optimized for the Casio CZ 1000. It sounded so very real and authentic, I was told by many who actually attended Julliard, that it could be used as a recital to attend Julliard School of Music.
 But I, primarily as a rock & roll guitarist had absolutely no intentions of doing so with a mind set of furthering my education into a trained money.
 My mind set was, there are only two types of musicians; Imitators and Innovators. And the only reason I pursued MIDI in the first place was to pursue Innovation and escaping a world being forced into sounding like Eric Clapton or Jimi Hendrix.
 
 Roland's reasoning behind the MC 500 being a 4 track sequencer was to give it the power to play 4 hardware synths discretely on their own tracks without colliding or conflicting with each other, whether they were made by Korg, Casio, Roland or whatever. This was very important because the General MIDI (GM) Specification wasn't invented yet.
 What made the MC 500 so ultimately powerful is, it didn't need to "understand" the very different commands of proprietary languages of Korg, Casio, or what ever to sequence performances together.
 And at the time, at first I must have cursed Roland hourly forcing me to learn all what I thought of as all that boring tedious crap I'll never use. Cursing them night after night, out of anger, but less and less nightly as I started to understand how valuable this knowledge is to know now, and how it can be used in the future, whether I stick with Roland or not
I stand on my belief that NO OTHER SEQUENCER MANUFACTURER COULD DO THAT BETTER THAN ROLAND! Some of them might have done just as good, but they just did it differently.
 And those that didn't struck out early in the game.
 
 Just as I stand on my belief today that THERE IS NO OTHER DAW WITH MORE POWERFUL MIDI SEQUENCING THAN SONAR! Some of them might do it just as good, but just did it differently.
    And as to date... Although many have tried through the years, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY has ever proved or presented empirical evidence that ever proves otherwise.
 Only opinions, and in my world opinions have absolutely nothing to do with the truth so don't count for much.
 
 
 

Steev
 
This is a result of what happens when the great minds of Roland, Yamaha, and Korg get together and stop the politics of competing with each other, and put their heads together to come up with a solution that helps EVERYBODY!

 
Some info here you may find interesting:
 
https://www.midi.org/articles/a-brief-history-of-midi
 
I had the original Oberheim System myself.  It was fast over the parallel port.  It could also address 8 CV/Gate synths at the same time. This was all pre midi.  It only had 6000 notes though.  Regarding early midi sequencers MC500 was OK and I used it for a while myself.  It was a bit of a toy though and I got out of it pretty fast.  Yamaha brought out a sequencer called the QX1 which was in another league at the time.  It had 8 midi out ports on it which was unheard of then.  The timing of the midi ports was separate as well meaning it was quite a bit better.  It could address 128 midi channels. It had 80,000 notes! Serious.
 
Roland and Yamaha and Korg did not get together.  Someone else got them together and that was Dave Smith from Sequential Circuits fame.  He was the one that got them in the room together.  And a few others as well.  Many walked out and refused to get involved at first.  Some of the big players remained and in the end they agreed.  It took some convincing apparently.  They only did it kicking and screaming.  The rest is history of course.  The others got on board pretty damn fast though.
 
The statement regarding Sonar as being the most powerful midi sequencer is opinion, not fact at all. Only a belief.  A slightly one sided Sonar view.  Fact! Sonar's midi timing is poor as well under certain conditions.  An aspect of Sonar that is not well known.  Studio One is way ahead in that area.  Logic and Cubase started earlier than Cakewalk and are in fact still the most powerful midi sequencers.  Logic is deep and I mean deep.  Many don't know about it because they are only on one computer platform.  Logic and Cubase have also got great midi timing.  Logic has AMT (Active Midi Transmission) and Cubase has LTB. (Linear Timebase)  Where you connect their own midi interfaces to their software you get amazing midi timing being tightened up by a factor of 10.  Well you did anyway back then. Not sure what is going on there now but I believe it is still implemented. 
 

Jeff Evans
 
Some info here you may find interesting:
 
https://www.midi.org/articles/a-brief-history-of-midi
 
I had the original Oberheim System myself.  It was fast over the parallel port.  It could also address 8 CV/Gate synths at the same time. This was all pre midi.  It only had 6000 notes though.  Regarding early midi sequencers MC500 was OK and I used it for a while myself.  It was a bit of a toy though and I got out of it pretty fast.  Yamaha brought out a sequencer called the QX1 which was in another league at the time.  It had 8 midi out ports on it which was unheard of then.  The timing of the midi ports was separate as well meaning it was quite a bit better.  It could address 128 midi channels. It had 80,000 notes! Serious.

Roland MC500 !! ..........1986! ........so impressed Jeff !!!!....:)


You have indeed been in it for 'The Long Haul' !!.....True believers like you mean 'we are where we are' :) ..Cheers Buddy !!
Having Said That ....
If I may indulge.............
My Father In Law...................(God Rest His Soul ...left us 2000).......was a powerful, MIDI 'True Believer' and this was a point of extreme common interest between him and his son in law ( :) ) ... BACK THEN...............do I miss him ...yeah quite a bit.
I am now doing a Log of  Household assets for my Mother In Law ( at her request ) who is now approaching 94 years of wisdom. 
Among the gear I have logged :

• Beat Machine -  'Rhythm Ace'
• MIDI Arranger - Roland RA50
• Digital Sequence Recorder -Yamaha QX5
• Remote Editor - Korg RE1
• 6 Channel Stereo Mixer - Boss BX600
• MIDI Data Filer - Yamaha MDF 
• Stereo Power Amplifier - Cutec PA 1202
• MIDI Keyboard - Yamaha DX
• I am certain..........all this gear is pre 2000.

Any of it ring bells for you..........just interested :).............Frank In  Geelong 

Midi and Audio work station is for music making...score or notation, or a way to edit midi for VSTi..and effects, and controllers..Ect....Is a must...and it must be working to the best of abilities to make the time line and or sync up proper to each other.
 
I find Sonar has a meter resolution of 000.00 in metronome count....it should be more robust..000.0000.
 
Editing midi at least the basic event, and list is fine...note edit is ok...the resolution of the metronome is weak in my understanding...should go to 4 decimal place past the point or more, as other daws use more resolutions making midi files...
 
I know Roland used to have this sorted in the past days of yor.....Computers and Ten trax had a 000.0000 resolution with midi....Why is it not in the Sonar same midi engine to say suit PT Pro tools....or other which does count below 0 to define feel, or movement of time to go with, or tie in better to other Applications which have defined the Audio Daw and midi work ethic?.
 
 
So yah , work to do in overhauling...Not reducing...and fixing it ...so it continues to be a DAW worth every penny some spent to see work as said.....That day...might take a bit of sour notes, and bash and banging with a hammer....But I know, if one is seeking to profit more so....in any things one does....It is not money that will make it good or great....It is the heart to make it right that does it!
 
.

Steinberg Pro 24,,,I remember printing that manual on the atari 1040stfm...dot matrix printer...fast as lightning..compared to PC MS...and less expense on ink...just rewind the carbon tape...and it be good for another manual to print out...
 
Not the easiest program to rap the head around...and the manual was thicker than the phone book.
 
but it worked for midi...Dr T also, and Clab,....... and band in a box, still got that going on today, jammer pro I believe was the competition app for rock and roll it seemed to be a bit better at generating than band in a box...
 
The wonderful work of midi, and all the things that can be controlled with it...is amazing....but ...the life and midi of human is where ...it might be used, but is still not necessary for living...but living with and using can be a experience of joy...when it does work properly, and all is well working with it...it can help get things done with the push program and run,...to do what some cannot do, all at once alone!...I'm glad the be making new midi ci...opens up more channels to route in more lighting, and sliders and hardware...should be fun...this so called future....just hope I be growing back some hair soon...I be old in the mirror...but not in spirit to play with the toys....lol
 
 
Cheers
 
 

Wow Jeff this is thread is like a cosmic virtual trip through memory lane. The MC 500 is nothing more than a clumsy paper weight without a copy of the system disc. You'd have a better chance of using a jar of mayonnaise as a sequencer/composer without one. I learned early on to include copy the system disc with every box of 3.5 floppy discs I bought. 
 I believe I still have the Roland system files on a CD somewhere, however I no longer have a floppy drive for my computer.
 It wasn't very longer after I enjoyed the very delightful experience and super easy setup of the MIDIMAN 8x8 digitally controlled MIDI patch bay. It was super easy to use because it could store very elaborate user defined MIDI routing scenes to it's own internal memory.
 I still have that as well but don't use it often unless someone brings some vintage synths to  the studio, I'll leave that big clunky 19" rack mount box in the closet. Also in the 19" box of rack stuff is an ancient TC Helicon Voiceworks Plus, Digitech GSP 5 guitar Processor, Digitech DSP 256 multi FX processor that are all patched into the 8x8. Also non MIDI gear such as 2 DBX 166 compressor limiters, DBX Type 2 Noise Reduction, and 2 channel Aphex Aural Exciter Type C2. Always loved that psycho acoustic processing for sound restoration, and Aphex's  BIG BOTTOM can put the THUMP back into thump!
 I don't know why I keep this rack together, other than it just served me well for decades now I can't bear to part with it
 Though I do still use an tiny under the table out of sight little  MIDIMAN 2X2 to keep my vintage Kawai-11 61 key digital synth and Roland Super JV-1080 synth module on deck at all times.
 For those that don't know, MIDIMAN was bought up by M-Audio, and they still manufacture these same exact ROCK SOLID bullet proof USB MIDI interfaces today. Only difference is a bit if superficial graphics designs and they are rebranded M-Audio.
 
 I've always had a great appreciation for the Atari systems, kind of jealous in a way being stuck in the Commodore 64 camp being I owned an Allen & Heath large format mixing desk that only supported the Commodore 64 for mix automation recording on a Tascam 16 track tape machine. Grr.
 Curious how a $10,000 mixer only offered support for a $100 computer. But truth be told $10k was actually dirt cheap for a new large format desk, a tiny fraction of the cost compared to it's nemesis built by Solid State Logic for around $100,000 and not really that far behind. Just like SSL's where a fraction of the cost of Focusrite Redd consoles for around $1,000,000, weren't that far behind.
 Of course A&H and SSL desks were built in factory assembly plants, greatly reducing the price of having Rupert Neve and his band of audio engineering fanatical brainiac's come visit and custom build your mixing desk on site by hand.
 However I was getting pretty close to digital recording sound quality with the A&H/Tascam setup with a bit of help with DBX Type 2 noise reduction, they really bumped up the signal to noise ratio and dropped the noise floor to dead silence by removing all traces of hiss.
 
 I also tried and really like E-magic Logic on the PC. I was very close to purchasing a licensed version when Apple bought or E-Magic and orphaned the Windows version.
A good friend, roommate, and bandmate of mine went to the music store on a quest for Cakewalk upon my recommendation, but came home Logic because the salesman at the music store convinced him it was better. 
 So I said, "Ah huh, ummm, maybe, I have no idea so you are on your own with the exception of any help you may get from your salesman.  And feel free to let me know how that works out for you, and exactly how much better it is."
 So after about a month of listening to him whining about the elevator muzac coming out of the telephone while he sat on hold and witnessing his "Hissy Fits" caused by Logic's learning curve, I started to get bored and I guess as a result, I failed to see the irony and humor in the current situation.
 So I dove in to see what the fuss was all about. After the first night of clumsily figuring out how to navigate around and inside of Logic, we started our first project the very next evening.
 By the time the project was finished I still didn't know if Logic was better, but I indeed grew fond enough for it to go to the music store and inquire about purchasing it with my buddy in tow who pretty much guaranteed he could get me a much better deal if he introduces me to the salesman who sold him Logic.
 As it turned out, the salesman who sold my buddy Logic no longer worked there. But while trying to talk to another salesman who kept getting interrupted by putting people on hold with a near constant stream of telephone calls, AND PROCEEDED TO IGNORE THEM, officially proclaimed and announced that they had no copies of Logic in stock at the moment... 
 Than his eyes lit up when the GRAND EPHONY struck him a-a-a-and he smiled his broadest smile  a-a-a-a-and w-w-w-waved a w-w-w-w-wiggly finger in the air and excitedly asked if he could interest me in the much better DAW from Cakewalk?
 
 And as my buddy and I locked eyes, in about the time span of about 20-40 ms latency----  I saw something that could only be described as the perfect morphing of fear, disgust, and confusion run across his mugshot.
 And so I narrowed my eyes at him and feigned righteous indignation and shouted; "CAKEWALK? CAAAAAKEWAAAAAAAAAALK?? SIR! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT I AM LACTOSE INTOLARENT FOR CRIPE'S SAKE??? I DON'T EVEN PREFER THE TASTE OF MACINTASH APPLES, LET ALONG THE TASTE OF COMPUTER PARPHIRALS! WHAT IN THE NAME OF ZEUS'S BUTTHOLE IS WRONG WITH YOU, KIND SIR? WHERE IS YOUR INTESTINAL FORTITUDE??"
 Well talk about LMAO to the power of 12! We both could barely see our way to walk out of the music store to the car with our eyes tearing up so bad and our lungs gasping for air, and stomachs aching and cramping up of belly laughter. 
 
I too really loathed SONAR X1, and what compounded my anger and frustration was not only the Skylight GUI, I have no words to describe how I felt about the makeover and rearranging of keyboard shortcuts. 
I felt completely like a stranger in a strange world, and felt that's it for Cakewalk, by the time SONAR 8.5 is no longer supported by Windows.
 But when X2 came out and the baker's reverted back to the old keystrokes burned into my brain, I decided to continue on with the upgrades.
 However I continued on with using 8.5 as my primary DAW version, and just practiced with X2 to become familiarized with it.
 It wasn't until X3 was out for a couple of months before trusting it enough to abandon 8.5.
 Well almost, I still have 8.5 running on an old  Windows XP RAIN laptop with a Presonus 8 channel audiobox and it's fairly snappy and  great machine for it's age.
 Only thing I upgraded on it was cloning a newer 1 gb Western Digital Caviar Black 7200 rpm hard drive to it.
 And I also installed an early version of Studio One, which is surprisingly good for a free bundled DAW.
 I still prefer SONAR though.