ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]
I've been exchanging email with "shea" coming to an understanding how his mixes may have come out differently. Part of this has been doing some experiments with various simple test files.

I did some A/B testing with Nuendo and SONAR, comparing the results of soft synths in the engine...

Ron, I applaud your efforts to resolve a perceived discrepancy, even though I still maintain you are answering to an undeserved and uninformed dig at Cake.

ORIGINAL: SteveD

The Grammy P&E Wing of The Recording Academy® formed a Delivery Specifications Committee, which has created The Delivery Recommendations for Master Recordings document.

I never saw that list... I guess I should be reading the newsletters better. ;-)

I might have some indirect contacts to people involved in the P&E wind; I'm going to try to find out who might be "suggestible" with regard to including SONAR the next go round, because having used several DAW programs (including the ubiquitous Pro Tools) I still find SONAR most comfortable for my creative process. SONAR 3 addressed most of my issues with creative capability and mixing options (especially flexible routing, which I had gotten very accustomed to when I used PT regularly).

ORIGINAL: shea
Thanks guys for for staying with us
So far i do not agree because this is totally different to what i presented to Ron
I did present a way to prove my theory by been able to null out a project in Sonar and nuendo ,but so far it has not been addresed.
I could post it here but i owe it to Ron to give him the time to come up with a solution, i thing it would be better for us all.
Shea

If it will help, I think I can translate (I can speak jive). Let's see...

"Thank you, everyone, for persevering with me and the Vice President of Software Engineering at Cakewalk Systems. Unfortunately, I cannot say that I am in total agreement with what has been presented up to this point, by Ron and others, as it differs significantly from the working example that I provided to Ron. I actually provided Ron with a means to prove my theory (motivated by and based upon my initial perceptions) whereby he would be able to null out the wav files resulting from a project from either SONAR or Nintendo. I am at this time waiting for Ron to report back to me on the results of his experimentation with these other projects. I could go ahead and post my own results here, but I feel that I at least owe Ron the courtesy of giving him an opportunity to address the matter directly. I believe that it would be in everyone's best interest."

HTH

Oops... did I do that? ;_)

If it will help, I think I can translate (I can speak jive). Let's see...

"Thank you, everyone, for persevering with me and the Vice President of Software Engineering at Cakewalk Systems. Unfortunately, I cannot say that I am in total agreement with what has been presented up to this point, by Ron and others, as it differs significantly from the working example that I provided to Ron. I actually provided Ron with a means to prove my theory (motivated by and based upon my initial perceptions) whereby he would be able to null out the wav files resulting from a project from either SONAR or Nintendo. I am at this time waiting for Ron to report back to me on the results of his experimentation with these other projects. I could go ahead and post my own results here, but I feel that I at least owe Ron the courtesy of giving him an opportunity to address the matter directly. I believe that it would be in everyone's best interest."

HTH

Losguy - Seriously, Bravo![sm=tongue.gif]

ORIGINAL: shea
I wouldnt think you make a living from making music so wise up

There's one for the books.

Another update:

Shea's setup was as follows. Machine A has Reason, Kontakt, SONAR and Nuendo on it. He loads the same project into SONAR and Nuendo, running Reason in Rewire mode and Kontakt VST(i), and SONAR and Nuendo don't sound the same.

Machine B has SONAR on it. He loads the project into Machine B, sets up machine A with Reason and Kontakt running as standalone synths. He plays the MIDI stream from machine B into machine A, and now machine A sounds the same as it did in Nuendo.

In other words, SONAR was doing something different with Reason in Rewire or with Kontakt in VST(i). I already knew the latter nulled out, so I drilled down into the former.

First I created a simple Reason project with Subtractor playing out the stereo main. I rendered it in both apps: identical. Now I'm really confused.

But then it hits me... pan law. I changed the project so that Subtractor was playing directly out a mono Rewire channel. I feed this mono channel into SONAR and Nuendo.

BINGO: SONAR renders the mono sound 3dB louder than Nuendo. Why? Nuendo's pan is -3dB by default. If you set it to 0dB they are the same again.

I have sent the relevant test files to shea for confirmation, but I feel really confident that this is the difference.

What this all goes to show is that Mr. R. Kuper is a software mind of a superior order. Despite all evidence that there was nothing wrong (and a number of razzes from the Peanut Gallery - yours truly included), Mr Kuper dug and dug and studied Just to Be Sure.

Hats off to you, sir. No wonder Sonar is a superior piece of work.

Truth be told, I couldn't care less if there is some subtle difference in sound between Sonar and Nuendo. I keep tuning in to see how Shea will mangle the English language next.

I was wondering the same thing...

Interestingly, anybody seen this?
http://forum.nuendo.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009611.html

This one is interesting too... look at the 9th post down
http://forum.nuendo.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/015981.html

This test is as close you can get to a scientific correct test.
It was performed on pretty much all DAW's available.
I have the test files (so doen Bullmoon) because we participated to that test.
Results and reading (if you feel like wading through a million posts) at Lynns 3dB forum.
To save you the trouble, pretty much all DAW's sound exactly the same, only a few broken ones did not.

Hello

I have both.

Will run test.





ZION

Can only one person be wrong at a time...?
I know what you are saying, but just because several people believe something does not make it a fact.
There are many factors that can influence subjective tests. Therefore the only TRUE way to catagorically prove it is with maths and science. Hence this test post, and the DAW_SUMM test.
As someone posted earlier on, many people still believe that the sun revolves arround the earth, because your eyes tell you so. But that doesn't make it true. Science can prove otherwise.

Phhhh ....
Really ... I don't feel like starting all over again ...
We have been through this a million times.
To explain it in two words.
The Lynn Fuston DAW_SUMM test is a set of 24 mono tracks 48k/24 bit recorded on a RADAR.
These need to be put into your own DAW and cancelled out against a _L / _R phase reversed mix.
(originally done on a dithered PT mix+)
All 26 files are panned hard left and hard right, to bypass pan Law mistakes.
We have to run two mixdowns, once with all faders @ 0 dB, once with all 26 faders +3dB and the master fader -3dB down.
Scientific result should be a cancellation down to -132 dB.
(-144 dB minus 2LSB of dither of the PT mixdowns)
This test is as close you can get to a scientific correct test.
It was performed on pretty much all DAW's available.
I have the test files (so doen Bullmoon) because we participated to that test.
Results and reading (if you feel like wading through a million posts) at Lynns 3dB forum.
To save you the trouble, pretty much all DAW's sound exactly the same, only a few broken ones did not.
And those are supposely fixed by now.
You can order a CD with all of the results, just in case you want to hear for yourself that a PT mix sounds exactly the same as a Nuendo mix.

Been reading too much of this stuff...can't keep track...