advaya
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 07:37:50
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This has gone on too long for me to keep my mouth shut about the whole issue...
Shea... I think it is time that you bow out of this mess you have created, and take up your 'NEUNDO' crusade elsewhere... If it sounds better to you, then use it instead. You continually say that it is not your intention to downplay the quality of Sonar, but many (heh... roughly 20-40%) of your posts are written for that purpose alone.
You have provided roughly zero-to-nadda percent evidence that there really is something wrong with Sonar's audio engine, but swear up-and-down that we should all take heed to your claims because you have 30 years of experience in the industry... And now you are parading around this thread as if you are some kind of hero for uncovering the 'obvious shortcomings of Sonar.'
I am surprised that Ron has humored your claims for as long as he has... I would have given up long ago. I have to give a nod to the Cakewalk team for the lengths they have gone to prove the audio engines are the same (unlike yourself Shea, I put a whole lot of emphasis on 'scientific methods of testing' and 'empirical results').
Now this thread has gotten rediculous... You seem to be expecting some kind of praise from everyone here for all the 'hard work' you have done to prove the inferior quality of Sonar... Your 'last laugh' statements make me shake my head 'till my neck hurts...
Outlandish claims without any support/proof are just that... outlandish... So please Shea, douse that torch you are parading around, and focus your endeavours somewhere else (like perhaps in a good book on digital audio recording). You might find it a bit more productive than all this nonsense...
Rediculous...
BTW has anyone else noticed how all the supporters of Shea's claims are new members with one or two posts? And how they are all typed with the same hard-returns at the end of each line so that the width of the posts are only half that of everyone else's? hmmmm....
I believe I have an inferiority complex... And I am certain that it isn't nearly as good as yours...
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planist
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 08:00:25
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STOP
now is the time, i think we all had enough.
this thread should be moved to the coffeehouse.
this is the wrong forum.
its about personalities and NOT about Sonar.
lets move on.
Jeff
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rascalmanny
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 09:30:19
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Yes....away with the ugliness.
Now....bring me......a shrubbery.
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gdugan
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 09:34:27
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ORIGINAL: yep
I am major pro audio for it with 20-40 years experence pro audio for U2 and madona and glen gold and they all say that tascam portastudio is 14%-48% better than sonor and nintendo. sorry if the truth hurts but its real and i proved it to ron kuper but he won't tell it and I cant post it here because i sell so much pro recording from my house. All your scientific are belong to us for my ears are what are telling the truth. even all the pros who never post before are agree. all you just hate to have cakewalk fo the best and you just want to be ould women and also your not kno what you talking about. hey i tri to help but you're to late you already all no that whemn i put my speakers on my tascam it sound way beter than sonor.
LOL!!! 
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SteveJL
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 09:41:23
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Agreed.
Please DIE This Thread. Move, Die, or Just Leave It Alone!
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silentmusic
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 09:49:01
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ORIGINAL: rascalmanny
Yes....away with the ugliness.
Now....bring me......a shrubbery.
LOL! I'd also like to thank Ron for taking this seriously, even when we sometimes didn't. - J
< Message edited by silentmusic -- 7/18/2004 9:51:43 AM >
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 10:37:56
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H guys
I tryed to stop this thread along time ago but a lot of the ass lickers keep replying.It sounds to me like o lot of you are working in a convent or some place with nothing to do.
You must give me this much, i made a great job of keeping you lot going.
And dont kid yourselves cake are not stupid, i did more advertising for Sonar in this thread than cake did in 5 years. 20000 hits for god sakes.In other words no body is going to take most of you guys serious, certainly not me.
Otherwise they would have stopped all this. dont worry they will correct what im saying in the end without admiting it to anybody.
Beleive me they have enough evidence sent to them from me to substansiate my claim. but they havnt produced any of it to you yet. I wonder why.
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
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torhan
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 10:52:25
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ORIGINAL: shea
H guys
I tryed to stop this thread along time ago but a lot of the ass lickers keep replying.It sounds to me like o lot of you are working in a convent or some place with nothing to do.
You must give me this much, i made a great job of keeping you lot going.
And dont kid yourselves cake are not stupid, i did more advertising for Sonar in this thread than cake did in 5 years. 20000 hits for god sakes.In other words no body is going to take most of you guys serious, certainly not me.
Otherwise they would have stopped all this. dont worry they will correct what im saying in the end without admiting it to anybody.
Beleive me they have enough evidence sent to them from me to substansiate my claim. but they havnt produced any of it to you yet. I wonder why.
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
I've been silent for 16 pages  .... Biting my tongue.... And Thrusting my ears. 
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JoePaz
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 10:54:12
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Ears hurt......
Must stop thrusting.....
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stratton
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 11:09:04
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ORIGINAL: shea
THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
OK, I know you meant "trust". At least I think you meant trust. Why don't you act like the pro you claim to be, and provide some evidence to listen to, to trust our ears with? Why are you so mysterious? It's really simple. We're all analytical types, and we're not likely to be swayed with words alone. If there is a 20-40% difference, in your files, we'll hear it. If there is, you'd be foolish to continue to use SONAR. Ken
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wmountney
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 11:33:54
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ORIGINAL: shea
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
Ah, I think I've discovered your problem, shea. All this time you've been thrusting your ears. I think you'll find that if you just try to keep them still, you'll be able to make more accurate sonic comparisons in the future. Case closed.
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Al 
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 12:38:39
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Ron ( Cakewalk) , sue the bastard . Good Luck .
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yep
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 12:57:53
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ORIGINAL: billkath
...That's like having a U87 and a Behringer B1, and trying to make the Neumann sound like the Behringer, rather than the other way around... Um, Bill, I think pan law doesn't work the way that you think it works. difference in pan law is NOT like two different microphones. It's more like the difference between two identical guitar amps, one of which has a knob that goes to eleven and the other only goes to ten. But both are just as loud when turned all the way up. If pan law IS, in fact the only difference, then what shea is complaining about is analogous to having both amps set to 10 and saying that one sounds better at the same settings. Now, somebody might well mix a project and find that playing it back with a different pan law gives them a more pleasing stereo image than the one they originally mixed, but if that's the case, then it was their mixing skills to blame for the inadequacy of the first, not the original pan law. Most of us would not be happy to hear the stereo field altered from the way we originally dialed it up. FWIW, I think it's possible that shea may be onto something (although i think it's unlikely). I think what he's catching flack for has less to do with his inscrutable spelling and grammar and more to do with his inability or unwillingness to back up his claims with any kind of testable or reproduceable evidence. He claims he sent some to Ron, but that Ron is misrepresenting something. That's pretty hard for me to believe, but if it's true, then just post the friggin' evidence already! A single test that illustrates the difference is easily worth a dozen posts under fake names that are agreeing with himself. Cheers.
< Message edited by yep -- 7/18/2004 1:02:14 PM >
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Rustic Raf
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 13:27:11
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It's really simple. We're all analytical types, and we're not likely to be swayed with words alone. If there is a 20-40% difference, in your files, we'll hear it.
If there is, you'd be foolish to continue to use SONAR. Ken , you've got it. People read the above quote . Shea, quit Sonar and buy Neundo. You are a pro after all ( !  ! ) and the 20-40 % difference in sound quality should not be ignored by a pro like yourself. Was it 20 % difference in the morning and 40 % in the afternoon after three cups of coffee ? Don't wait for Cake to close this 20-40 % difference , just indulge yourself and spend those $$$$ that guarrante your quality.
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RTGraham
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 13:53:44
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While I have come to believe that there may be some substance to "shea's" claims, I see no reason why we should have to tolerate immature and unprofessional behaviour in a public forum.
Shea, I don't work in a convent, but I have lost my tolerance for your unprofessional and insulting communication skills. Vulgarity and insults are not the way a "professional" should be making their point in a public forum, and regardless of how others have antagonized you, your choice of words goes beyond what we should have to deal with. If you want us to take you seriously and treat you with respect, then post messages that command respect through their professionalism and courtesy. Otherwise you will find that you get back the energy you put out.
I have reported you as abusive. I would still like to see what kind of anomalies Ron finds with regard to Rewire or any other audio issues, but I have no desire whatsoever to read another single post from you. I'm no goody-two-shoes, but I have enough respect for the fact that this is a public forum, that I won't type anything that I think might offend someone else. There are other ways to make a point.
I apologize for wasting everyone's time and bandwidth with my personal rant.
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 14:30:51
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H guys
I tryed to stop this thread along time ago but a lot of the ass lickers keep replying.It sounds to me like o lot of you are working in a convent or some place with nothing to do.
You must give me this much, i made a great job of keeping you lot going.
And dont kid yourselves cake are not stupid, i did more advertising for Sonar in this thread than cake did in 5 years. 20000 hits for god sakes.In other words no body is going to take most of you guys serious, certainly not me.
Otherwise they would have stopped all this. dont worry they will correct what im saying in the end without admiting it to anybody.
Beleive me they have enough evidence sent to them from me to substansiate my claim. but they havnt produced any of it to you yet. I wonder why.
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea I dont see anything insulting about this its just an opinion and the thruth. What do you call this from Al. quote "Ron ( Cakewalk) , sue the bastard . Good Luck ".unquote. I would not indulge in this kind of language. As a matter of fact i think they will give me a free copy of sonar4 for all this advertising. Shea
< Message edited by shea -- 7/18/2004 2:38:39 PM >
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jamies_ice
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 14:50:56
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it's not the money, it's the man. Agreed. 6 months ago I knew nothing. Now I have just completed my debut album. It is at the duplication plant as we speak. Sure there are mistakes on the record, and sure some things could've gone better... Also, all of my outboard studio equipment is second hand, and a plethora of other things. But I put everything I had into the album, and I made it the best that I could- with what I had. My point is that had I allowed myself to get sucked into the abyss of Gear Aquisition Syndrome, then my progress would have been very slow going. In fact, I would not be anywhere near completion at this point. I don't know if Nuendo has a better audio engine than Sonar. That is something for the techie boys at the Cakewalk lab to deal with for version 4. All I know is that Sonar came through for me, and helped me create and bring into being a part of my life's work- and I am proud of the results {In fact, I am embarrassed to say that I can't stop listening to the album}. To put it another way: I would take the best songwriter in the world with the worst equipment; rather than the worst songwriter in the world with the best equipment.
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advaya
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 15:33:28
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Hey RTGraham...
I am so glad to hear that you have taken the necessary steps to stop the foolishness that has been the result of Shea's crusade...
Shea, it is not so much that you are using vulgar or obscene language; rather, it is that you persist with making these unfounded accusations (presumably 98-99% false) about Cakewalk being deceptive towards their users... Your claims about their practice of hiding the inferiority of their audio engine (or that 'it doesn't do what it says on the tin') are much akin to public slander on your part... This is a dangerous game that you are playing now.
To come here and question the reputation of a company that the majority of us have come to love and respect is not going to make you many friends in this industry. If you are as pro as you say you are, the significance of that should be rather obvious to you...
Alas, the unacceptable nature of your actions here in this forum is something that no company should ever have to put up with.
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Zumba
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 15:33:49
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www.zartphoto.com “It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.†Samuel Adams
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jamies_ice
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:02:53
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lol
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RTGraham
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:05:01
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ORIGINAL: shea
I tryed to stop this thread along time ago but a lot of the ass lickers keep replying.
Shea All I'm saying is, most people I know wouldn't use that phrase in polite company. Maybe amongst friends, but not in a public forum like this. You make it very difficult for us to respect you, and this thread is no longer a quest for positive results. This thread has degenerated into nothing more than a series of quips, attacks, defenses and witticisms. It really should be moved to the coffeehouse. Perhaps we need to start a new thread that deals only with the actual musical / technical / sound quality issue - which, if I understand shea and Ron properly, has to do with a difference in SONAR's rewire rendering of Reason versus Reason's standalone output. Perhaps that's just the tip of the iceberg, but that's all anybody - shea included - has told us. But if this thread is going to continue to be unwarranted childish banter, it's time for it to move. I'm not talking to just shea - if we want to bring this to a professional, mature level, we all have to behave that way.
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jamies_ice
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:10:38
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Gotta chime in once more: Yikes! I must say that I have learned a valuable lesson from re-reading this thread: never bash Sonar at the cakewalk forum. If the cakewalk community ever decides to mobilize, then "The Man" had better call in the Marines! That said, let's quit putting Shea up on a cross and just agree to disagree. *Crotchety old Chairman* "Any new business??"
< Message edited by jamies_ice -- 7/18/2004 4:16:19 PM >
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Cass Anawaty
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:29:32
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"The Man" had better call in the Marines! We're already here CAA
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zentatonic
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:36:44
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I'd love to hear some of Shea's music/work...
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jamies_ice
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:41:08
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Semper fi, Devil Dog! Where are you stationed?
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Cass Anawaty
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:44:31
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I'm in the IRR in Portland. Drop me a line through my site if you get a chance!
S/F,
CAA
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Bill OConnell
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:50:01
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ORIGINAL: jamies_ice
I must say that I have learned a valuable lesson from re-reading this thread: never bash Sonar at the cakewalk forum. But by the same token, when people ask for advice about Sonar vs. other programs, they get professional, balanced opinions. This is not a cheerleading group by a longshot (and I'm not suggesting that you implied that, James). This group is a community with a lot of talent, compassion and brains, but I agree with you in the sense that I would never want to take the people here for fools. Shea's trouble started with the accusatory title of the thread, and things went downhill from there.
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zentatonic
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 16:56:38
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The all-caps title was a dead giveaway of things to come.
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 19:58:55
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Right guys
I think we should all be friends again.
We have the answer at last and the promise to remedy it. as per email.
But i do have to give Ron kupper the courtesy, to tell you himself.
And for the record, yes, i will be satisfied.
Shea
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Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 20:06:15
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What I said to shea was this (paraphrasing). Yes, there is a difference in sound caused by the difference in pan law. It's easy to see the difference with one track, and no doubt in complicated projects with many tracks the difference is significant. "Different" doesn't mean "better", but it does mean people will apply subjective judgement to the difference.
The remedy shea is alluding to is to give SONAR a user-configurable pan law like Nuendo has. We hope to do something about this in SONAR 4. In the meantime, if the goal is give SONAR a -3dB pan law, you can simply use offset mode to trim the gain of all mono audio tracks by 3dB.
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