Dont kid yourselves im on a mission here, trying to beat the record, pardon the pun! but im running out of ideas. 21000 and counting.



Shea

God bless you, shea (or whoever you are). May He bless you with all wisdom, understanding, maturity, humility, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self control. And a life long enough to acquire them all in great measure, so that you can truly experience all that God has for you... enjoying the good, learning from the bad, and growing in the process. On that note, we sign off, wishing you the best of all of these things...

Edit: I said all of this on 7/19 when it looked like the thread was winding down, as a constructive sendoff to both shea and the thread. It looked at the time like it had served its useful purpose and was ready for the coffeehouse. Also at the time no indication was evident that the original project files were going to be either delivered by shea or reviewed by Ron K. I was wrong (imagine that!). See Ron K's post below... To my pleasant surprise, Ron Kuper persevered with shea on this, and now it appears that we may actually get compelte answers. So, I suppose that I can "tolerate" hanging around a little longer...

Removed for lack of taste...on my part!
Sorry for joining in the foolishness....
6strings

ORIGINAL: shea

Dont kid yourselves im on a mission here, trying to beat the record, pardon the pun! but im running out of ideas. 21000 and counting.



Shea

We are just seeing how many times you can expose yourself to being a total idiot

yeah ... also this entire thread should move out of here ..

i just refreshed now the Sonar forum page and i saw this thread TWICE

the 1st - the original (lame) subject line ..

the 2nd - a [MOVED] added .. same subject line ... and i'm not imagining things

i think the mods just tried to move it (probably to the coffeehouse .. )
... LOL .. it did a "copy".

having problems there ?

While I have been working with shea via email, this thread has spiraled into discussion that is at best childish and at worst a violation of this forum's rules of conduct. I'd like it to stop.

shea is a decent guy and certainly not a troll. He has a legitimate complaint and a valid point of view. He isn't yet convinced that pan law explains the difference. He is entitled to that opinion. The fact is I haven't yet A/B'd the actual project file in question. I believe that pan law will ultimately explain the situation, but shea respectfully disagrees. We'll see.

I really appreciate all the positive feedback on how I've been getting to the bottom of this situation. Let's please take all that positive energy and direct it towards keeping open minds and showing a little more tolerance and restraint.

Thanks.

PS: I almost moved this thread, then almost deleted it, then changed my mind. If we can cut down on the chatter maybe this thread will actually serve some useful purpose.

Hi guys.

I'm dead scared about submitting to this thread incase I get jumped on!!

I have been reading this thread from the start and have found it both informative and entertaining.

Firstly, I have never A/Bd Sonar against any other sequencer. For this reason I shall not speculate as to whether one sounds better than another.

Secondly, although I agree that this thread has spiralled completely into oblivion - and this is not due to one individuals participation - I appreciate Sheas motivation for raising this thread in the first place. As it has been stated before in this thread - if there is an inherent problem with the "audio engine" within Sonar then I wish it to be rectified. I shall be most interested to hear the conclusions from Ron once he has A/Bd the files from Shea.

However, there are several points which have been raised but must be reiterated for all parties involved.

1. Ron Kuper reminded us that regardless of any difference in data processing which may make Sonar 'sound' different to other sequencers, the sound quality at the end of the day is subjective. What sounds 'worse' to Shea may indeed sound 'better' to myself or any other member of this forum.

2. I cannot ignore scientific facts. If two exported wav files null out when phase-reversed (apart from 1 tick in timing difference) then if it is being played back through exactly the same equipment in the same geographic position and surroundings then there is no reasonable explanation as to why the file should sound exactly the same. That is my belief and makes sense scientifically.

3. It has been established that the pan-law settings are different within Sonar as to Nuendo. In my opinion this makes zero difference to me and the way I work. My working practice is to first pan a channel and adjust the volume accordingly.
If a note was panned from left to right within Nuendo without the fader or gain being adjusted then one would audibly observe the note rise and fall in volume. In Sonar this would not happen. Hence, it *may* be argued that Sonars pan-law better equipped to deal with automated panning. But that is another thread completely


My intention for writing this reply was to try and summarise 19 pages of *stuff*. I agree with Ron in that people have said alot of things which were out of turn, and its a real shame. Why don't we all just..... get along?

Loving you all.

Jamie

ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]

While I have been working with shea via email, this thread has spiraled into discussion that is at best childish and at worst a violation of this forum's rules of conduct. I'd like it to stop.

I will retreat into lurkdom (after this post haha). I do not have Nuendo, so I cannot contribute here really. But I will continue to check back to see if there are any new news as I am interested in definative answers.

ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]
shea is a decent guy and certainly not a troll. He has a legitimate complaint and a valid point of view. He isn't yet convinced that pan law explains the difference. He is entitled to that opinion. The fact is I haven't yet A/B'd the actual project file in question. I believe that pan law will ultimately explain the situation, but shea respectfully disagrees. We'll see.

I am sure shea is a nice guy... if he were in Dallas I would surely add him to my growing list of folks who I would like to meet for a beer. Of course that may be explained by my love of beer as much as any goodwill. ;)

I also think he has had the hardest role in this drama since there is only one shea and dozens of us who feel he is basing his opinion on bias rather than logic. Of course most of us don't have the tools we need to prove the point either so I suppose may of us on the other side are as biased. Everyone wants to believe their conclusion is right whether it is based on real evidence or just a hope.

I even tried to make a little pan tool using synthedit because I have been made curious as to this aspect of the difference between DAWs and wanted to see if I could offer something to help people test.



I have stopped trying since it only adds one more layer of variable to the whole thing (and since I don't have Nuendo and cant then do any sort of a/b test) as well as the fact I couldn't get the plugin to act right on a mono channel in Sonar though it seems to work fine on a stereo track. On mono tracks it puts everything in one channel. ?? I suppose all this is best left to folks who are not hacks like me. ;)

Still there are two ideas that keep ringing in my mind.

1. Math is Math. Working at the same internal resolution with the same files should produce a result that is exactly the same nomatter what daw is used. If it does not - then one program is in error, unless at some resolution a choice in rounding is different between the two programs which would surprise me. 2+2=4 in both programs... If one of them did 2+2=4.00000021 and attibuted the difference to "tube wamth" or "true tape" or something then it is producing an incorrect number from a purist point of view. I suppose in this case 'wrong' might sound better (though I doubt it), but I would want to still know it was happening. ;)

2. Panlaw. The two programs have a fundamental difference in the way they handle panning. And I suppose it might be possible that the two programs might even produce tiny differences in the case that the pans are both set to the same value (even if they can be) when using the same panlaw. I still don't think this difference could explain beyond the most minute difference that certainly could not be called 'way ahead'.

If I wasn't so broke I might buy Nuendo so I could do the test myself.... but... I AM so broke. ;)

cAPS

It may be possible that this issue has to do with the way both programs deal with latency.
From what I've learned, Cubase automatically slides the offending track into near perfect position when a plugin (or ReWire?) is causing a latency-related program shift.
Maybe I'm reaching?

shea is a decent guy and certainly not a troll. He has a legitimate complaint and a valid point of view. He isn't yet convinced that pan law explains the difference. He is entitled to that opinion.

Ron, this is what makes you and cakewalk so great!!!

Until now I was just a SONAR user, but from now I start to have deep respect towards this company.

I don`t know who is shea, probably he simply didn`t have the ability to express himself in a diplomatic manner, but he has a problem and he tried to share his problem with us in the forum.
Ron was the one and the only who really tried to understand shea`s problem in contrast to so many people here who damned him. My deepest respect!!!

Come on people, I think we all should try to help each other, even if we don`t like someone for his ignorance, speech ability and so on.
This is what this forum is made for. To help each other, not to judge.

Best regards

Ottonis

P.S. My english is far from being perfect as well..... Does this make me a less worth person?

ORIGINAL: ottonis
Come on people, I think we all should try to help each other, even if we don`t like someone for his ignorance, speech ability and so on.
This is what this forum is made for. To help each other, not to judge.

Best regards

Ottonis

P.S. My english is far from being perfect as well..... Does this make me a less worth person?

You have it backwards. It was "Ignorance = Made fun of for English", not "English = Made fun of for ignorance".

Regardless, you and Ron have good points, although Shea is still to blame for much of this childishness. A mob doesn't magically become an angry mob without provocation.

-Alex

Shea is still to blame for much of this childishness. A mob doesn't magically become an angry mob without provocation

Very true, alexniedt!

But I still think, in future we alltogether (me included) should be less excitable and follow less the "mob".
When I was reading the thread, I saw at some pages that it was really popular to "beat" shea, and I am convinced that a significant amount of people did not because they felt offended but just because many others had done it before.

What I have learned from this thread:
1.) I am very glad to understand something about the panning law issue. Probably, without this thread, I would not have learned it. And my position with respect to NUENDO and SONAR is now much more elaborated than it was ever before.
2.) We all, including me and shea and many, many other people here in this forum, could avoid much trouble in our communication when we try to foregive and don`t feel offended so easily.

One of the best examples in this forum is probably michael japan. I like his posts so much because he is allways so helpful. And (this is only my impression) if he feels offended I never saw him striking back. That`s how I do also want to behave in this forum: This forum gives me so much help, so even when there is from time to time an inadequate post, it will not disturb me so much. There are moderators who can erase inadequate posts if they feel they are inadequate.

Best regards!

A thoughtful post, ottonis.

[Edit: Removed all my long-winded crap.]

I am a full-time musician and a part-time studio engineer, with my own moderate project studio, like many other users here. But I must confess, I have been very impressed with the way Ron (and the "bakers") have dealt with shea's question, AND the new VST wrapper fix. A software company that actually attempts great customer service is almost unheard of in this day and age of corporations that hide behind the personal anonymity of the internet.

I personally remember a time when businesses took great pride in going the extra mile for their customers because they were neighbors. But Cakewalk has shown that, while the internet has "shrunk" the world we live in, they still CHOOSE to have a PERSONAL accountability to their customer base, instead of hiding behind an email address and an 800 number answering service in India.

Kudos to Cakewalk (and especially Ron), and I do wish the company success and prosperity, and hope they can continue their excellent work.

I only just got the software I need to run shea's test file yesterday. (His file consisted of Reason 2.5 tracks and Kontakt tracks.)

I did an A/B in a "pan-law adjusted" build of SONAR (S4 will have pan law) against Nuendo. To my ear, the two mixes sounded the same. However, mixes exported from SONAR and Nuendo didn't null out. I need to dig deeper to see why. I was going to isolate individual tracks to see if it was somehow track specific.