moniker
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 20:18:51
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ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]
What I said to shea was this (paraphrasing). Yes, there is a difference in sound caused by the difference in pan law. It's easy to see the difference with one track, and no doubt in complicated projects with many tracks the difference is significant. "Different" doesn't mean "better", but it does mean people will apply subjective judgement to the difference.
The remedy shea is alluding to is to give SONAR a user-configurable pan law like Nuendo has. We hope to do something about this in SONAR 4. In the meantime, if the goal is give SONAR a -3dB pan law, you can simply use offset mode to trim the gain of all mono audio tracks by 3dB.
Good god, is that all that this has amounted to? Thanks to Ron for his considerable patience. Moniker
< Message edited by moniker -- 7/19/2004 2:22:44 AM >
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 20:23:24
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Hi Ron
Can i at this stage thank you myself personally and everybody else at cakewalk. This is why it would be impossible for me to change from sonar,because i love it to much.
To every body else despite the rants thank you for staying with me to the end
and achieving something.
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Rustic Raf
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 20:25:30
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The remedy shea is alluding to is to give SONAR a user-configurable pan law like Nuendo has Yes, and then Shea's customers will be able to come in to his studio and say: "today, Shea, you have to record us on Sonar 4 with its user-configurable pan law, as it really makes our music 20 - 40 % better ". [sm=tongue.gif]
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gdugan
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 20:40:09
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ORIGINAL: moniker
Good god, is that all that this has amounted to? Thanks to Ron for his considerable patience.
Moniker
Yes, that's the unbelievable part about all this... Panning law has ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with a "lack of quality" that Shea complained about in his original post. It's simply a volume difference, easily compensated for.
< Message edited by gdugan -- 7/18/2004 5:44:27 PM >
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 21:08:23
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Nope
I didnt allud to any panning law ,as a matter of fact i have to be honest here, i discount it. Cake have admitted there is a significent sound difference, call it what you like. what i do agree with is that now at least SOMETHING is being done.
Keep the face and lets now end it, at least have the courtesy to do that and move on.
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cAPSLOCK
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 22:12:13
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Man you totally misunderstood the answer. I don't think you were ever able to understand it in the first place. Even if you were, you don't WANT to. There is no problem. There is no difference between what the two engines produce outside of the panning law difference. Do you even know what panning law is? Cakewalk has not admitted a sound difference, they have REFUTED it. As to 'something being done', Cakewalk is talking about adding user selectable pan law to the application. This is nice, I suppose, but it doesn't change ANYTHING about the way the application sounds... not a whit. It just changes the way the pan knob functions. It is two different ways to do the exact same thing. I am not sure what 'Keep the face' means.. but you have lost nearly all credability with your various blatherings on this thread. Until you take responsibility for your own knowledge (or lack) and understand how to apply it to your craft, you will always be amazed at 'great sounding mixes' when you get them, and confused why you can't get what you want in the other cases. It doesn't matter how many times repeat your position if it is wrong. It is the difference between: "WRONG." and: "WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG.WRONG." I do not mean this to sound nasty towards you. But you are seriously blinded by lack of understanding and even worse by the inability to admit you are WRONG. We all have to deal with this problem in every aspect of life. Start dealing with it, or keep blindly bumping around running into walls of phantom imaginations. Good advice for you and me. cAPS
< Message edited by cAPSLOCK -- 7/18/2004 10:17:34 PM >
"We da da sahw pe paw fidlily-doobee afidlily-dooten-bweebee!" -Shooby
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Cass Anawaty
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 22:14:58
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Wise, you are. (Yoda speak)...
CAA
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 22:19:38
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Can you read plain english move on
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jerrye
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 22:37:24
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nevermind
< Message edited by jerrye -- 7/18/2004 9:51:51 PM >
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Al 
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 22:47:31
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Can you read plain english move on i appreciate everyone's efforts to keep this thread (and forum) clean , nice , mature , pro ...you are all simply too kind . SO many efforts were done here.. but see for who .. a troll like shea ... and i hate to say " i told ya' " . ..each time we get more and more teasing and attacks from him..more "breakpoints" ..and i tried to be quiet for a while to see what would come after his absurd "Cake have admitted there is a significent sound difference, call it what you like " hallucinations ?? cAPS - good job . everyone..please don't be blind .. ohh and now its " Can you read plain english move on " . shea will soon be the 8th person who get banned from these forums.. i can see that coming ..and don't feel too sorry for him .
< Message edited by Al -- 7/18/2004 10:50:27 PM >
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Zumba
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 23:10:11
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Im so glad this has finally worked out. We can all sleep a little safer tonight. And now back to our regularly scheduled forum. Tennis anyone?
< Message edited by Zumba -- 7/18/2004 11:11:40 PM >
www.zartphoto.com “It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.†Samuel Adams
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koolbass
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 23:36:37
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I still think Krystal burgers are 20% to 40% greasier!! 
Cheers, Lance "koolbass" Martin Sonar Platinum, Sound Forge Pro 12, ADK built audio computer: Intel 8 core i7 Haswell-E overclocked 4.2GHz; 32 Gig DDR4/2666 ram; Corsair 850W power; Windows Pro 10 x64; Geforce GTX 980 video w/4 monitors (Acer 27" touch screen/primary); 3 Seagate drives - OS, audio, samples, 2 TB external USB3 bkup drive; RME MADIface XT; Ferrofish A16 MKII ADDA; Lucid GenX 6-96 clock www.BoogieHouseMusic.com
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keith
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/18 23:57:48
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ORIGINAL: yep
All your scientific are belong to us
HAAAAA! Oh, I'm rolling... that was too funny... I was thinking of working that in somewhere, just seemed appropriate... but you nailed it!
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Cary
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 01:23:57
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The remedy shea is alluding to is to give SONAR a user-configurable pan law like Nuendo has. We hope to do something about this in SONAR 4. In the meantime, if the goal is give SONAR a -3dB pan law, you can simply use offset mode to trim the gain of all mono audio tracks by 3dB. Ron, I don't want to drag this thread on, but I want to understand the jist of the Sonar vs Nuendo pan law. Am I to understand that when using Sonar 3, a +4db signal panned full right or left will have the same output level per channel if panned center? If this is the case, this is contrary to almost every analog or digital console I've ever worked on. Most consoles drop the level on both channels 3db when panned center. Wouldn't this discrepency carry through with channels panned somewhere in between full right or full left? So the real fix would lie in changing the pan law and not just adding 3db to channels panned to center. I'm a techie by heart, and I much prefer working in Sonar over ProTools or Nuendo any day. I'm just curious as to why it was done this way. Cary
< Message edited by Cary -- 7/19/2004 1:34:33 AM >
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Philipian
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 02:15:48
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Thanks Ron for your hard work and your professionalism. Thanks to the rest of you who actually tried deal with Shea in a respectable way. I really did enjoy the OT posting, but it was nice to get back on subject and answer this query.
This last week I finished a mix using Sonar the complete way through, including my humble approach at mastering using the Sonitus multiband and a final EQ stage. I mixed it down to a wave file, Played it everywhere I could, and mixed down again making adjustments for frequencies I can't hear in my studio (Boy do I need a subwoofer). I took it to a friends house and played it on his big, nice stereo system as a final test. It sounded great. Everyone who heard it liked it. We compared it to other CD's. The level was in league, but I didn't squash the sound as much. Sonar is a great program, and gives great results. I haven't decided whether I will post it to the song forum yet, but am kind of leaning that way. Not only is Sonar a great program, but you guys have shared questions, solutions, and technical information that helped me learn to produce a fair mix. It is going to take practice and continued learning to get good.
Thanks
Phil
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mark s
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 03:56:30
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ORIGINAL: koolbass
I still think Krystal burgers are 20% to 40% greasier!!
And I've heard Coke 2 is the same better: I dare you to prove me wrong! :D
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Dickie
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 04:52:47
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Thanks Ron for all your hard work and patience...
Dickie
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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Andrew Milne
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 05:36:04
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Shea, how can you say in one post: We have the answer at last and the promise to remedy it. as per email.
But i do have to give Ron kupper the courtesy, to tell you himself.
And for the record, yes, i will be satisfied. and then say: Nope I didnt allud to any panning law ,as a matter of fact i have to be honest here, i discount it. Are you satisfied with the "pan-law" explanation or not? For instance, when the levels of the mono tracks in SONAR are adjusted to match Nuendo's do they, to you, sound equally good or not? If they do sound equally good then you have to accept the pan law explanation, if they don't then the solution to this quality issue has not been solved (for you) at all. Which is it?
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6stringsat100mph
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 06:28:01
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ORIGINAL: shea
H guys
I made a great job of keeping you lot going.
i did more advertising for Sonar in this thread than cake did in 5 years.
20000 hits for god sakes..
Otherwise they would have stopped all this. dont worry they will correct what im saying in the end without admiting it to anybody.
Beleive me they have enough evidence sent to them from me to substansiate my claim. but they havnt produced any of it to you yet. I wonder why.
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
Can i at this stage thank you myself personally and everybody else at cakewalk. This is why it would be impossible for me to change from sonar,because i love it to much.
To every body else despite the rants thank you for staying with me to the end
and achieving something.
Good God man! This must be "his" 15 minutes.....how sad....to waste it here...where nobody cares. Pitiful man.... 6Strings
< Message edited by 6stringsat100mph -- 7/19/2004 6:31:09 AM >
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Smeeb
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 07:37:49
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I know it's obvious to most, but just to keep a little perspective, the pan law was offered up as a possible reason back on the first page of this thread by "daverich" (and many others throughout this). I don't know if "shea" has an ulterior motive with this whole thread, or an ego that won't allow him to concede - both are equally plausible. I'd venture to say that even if he didn't intend to stir the pot at the beginning, he got a taste of it and for some reason found it to his liking. In my opinion, it was wise for Ron/Cakewalk to publicly make the point through nulling, etc.. It's too bad it had to end up in this thread though. A "dumb down" pan law switch option in Sonar4 is just one of those things that has to be I guess --- and likely an internal joke at Cakewalk --- they're probably referring to that section of programming code as "the code that breaks it like Nuendo" or, "the Nuendo switch" or "the pan law violation" (that last one sounds like a good movie title).
< Message edited by Smeeb -- 7/18/2004 8:00:14 PM >
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zarf
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 08:10:11
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Maybe he has a Doppler effect problem? Zarf ORIGINAL: wmountney
ORIGINAL: shea
A little piece of advice guys , THRUST YOUR EARS MORE.
Shea
Ah, I think I've discovered your problem, shea. All this time you've been thrusting your ears. I think you'll find that if you just try to keep them still, you'll be able to make more accurate sonic comparisons in the future. Case closed.
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planist
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 09:28:14
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"the pan law violation" (that last one sounds like a good movie title). LOL pan law option to choose from is good and already added in the Feature Requests Thread planist
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ebinary
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 10:48:29
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Can you read plain english move on i no can read plain english me stay
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daverich
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 10:55:27
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ORIGINAL: Smeeb
I know it's obvious to most, but just to keep a little perspective, the pan law was offered up as a possible reason back on the first page of this thread by "daverich" (and many others throughout this).
I knew it would ended up being this... reason being there was a HUGE debate about this over in the Logic camp when I was using logic platinum5.5 - and I believe a similar debate over on the Steinberg forums. Kind regards Dave Rich.
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losguy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 11:06:10
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ORIGINAL: Andrew Milne
Shea, how can you say in one post:
...........
and then say:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Are you satisfied with the "pan-law" explanation or not?
Gee whiz, (respectfully) there's more flipflopping on the issues there than with some political candidates. (Maybe this will finally get this thread moved, or better yet, deleted.) Edit: I know, I know, I already apologized for hurting shea's feelings. I don't really mean to be mean here, I'm just going shamefully OT on purpose, you know? And Smeeb, copyright that "Pan Law Violation" title quick, it's a real winner!
< Message edited by losguy -- 7/19/2004 10:31:16 AM >
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ghijkmnop
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 11:13:15
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(Maybe this will finally get this thread moved, or better yet, deleted.) I disagree with deleting this thread at this juncture, as it served to be almost as productive than the "...Come on, Cakewalk..." thread of a few weeks ago. However, if the actual results could be gleaned from here and posted to a new, frozen, FAQ-style post, then this one in all its silliness and seriousness could be moved to the CH without objection.
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losguy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 11:17:51
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Agreed. Let's throw out the bathwater but keep the... baby? No... Portions of this thread were productive. As with the Envelope Thread, an "In Response To..." thread for the "Pan Law Violation" (sic) could serve a very useful and productive purpose. It would make sense, too, now that the inclusion in the Sonar 4 feaure list has been clarified. Such a thread would also provide a forum for requests of refinement of the feature. I for one would definitely request that the default pan law in S4 to be the current one in S3, for instance. I happen to like it. (Yes, I admit it, even if that may mean that I don't end up paying my bills with my music.) ;_) <Edited for clarity, after my morning coffee kicked in> Edit: And I do appreciate that the Cakewalk moderators don't kill threads just because it's not good press, like some other companies do. They have done, and continue to maintain outstanding forthrightness with their product, and it has resulted in everyone's benefit.
< Message edited by losguy -- 7/19/2004 10:48:39 AM >
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Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 12:00:02
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Am I to understand that when using Sonar 3, a +4db signal panned full right or left will have the same output level per channel if panned center? If this is the case, this is contrary to almost every analog or digital console I've ever worked on. No, this is not the case. SONAR does the same thing as an analog console. This is SONAR's pan law. P is pan parameter, which is a float ranging from 0-1. 0 means fully left, 1 means fully right: Gain(L) = cos(P*{pi}/2) * sqrt(2) Gain(R) = sin(P*{pi}/2) * sqrt(2) Since sin^2(x) + cos^2(x) = 1, this forumula yields constant power. Left or right panned signals will be 3dB louder than center panned signals. The extra sqrt(2) factor is to ensure that a center panned signal yields 0dB of gain. In other words, Nuendo achieves constant power by "dipping" the center channel, and using unity gain for left/right. SONAR achieves constant power by keeping unity gain for the center and boosting left/right.
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Dickie
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 12:04:46
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The extra sqrt(2) factor is to ensure that a center panned signal yields 0dB of gain. In other words, Nuendo achieves constant power by "dipping" the center channel, and using unity gain for left/right. SONAR achieves constant power by keeping unity gain for the center and boosting left/right. Yes I've been caught by that one, as if you hard right/left pan a signal that peaks @ > -3dB then the track/buss will clip, and you have to turn down the track fader to compensate...
Dickie
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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Cary
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/19 12:28:39
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The extra sqrt(2) factor is to ensure that a center panned signal yields 0dB of gain. In other words, Nuendo achieves constant power by "dipping" the center channel, and using unity gain for left/right. SONAR achieves constant power by keeping unity gain for the center and boosting left/right. Thanks for the clear explanation Ron. Now I understand. Cary
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