thebiglongy
A daw really doesn't need a crap load of synth plugins to come with it.
I think half the problem is that the time spent on trying to add in new synths/plugins, is just more time wasted when it could be better spent making sure the program runs smoothly. 
I know people say, "don't insert effects/plugins, switch presets, whilst the transport is running", but for me, I believe a program like sonar should be able to handle this task without glitching up or stalling. Same goes for switching to loop modes and such. 

A DAW should be just a sequencing/recording program with support for vst/dx n so on. Manufacturer's would be better off just making a solid base program and leave the vst business to those like Native and others who have more time to concentrate on their instruments.

As for paying to upgrade....if x2b doesn't come out and they then expect people to pay the upgrade price to squash old bugs and issues, whilst adding things we don't need, then they need to take a serious look at themselves.

If I purchase faulty goods be it  a toaster, TV, Ipad, car or cutlery, we can take them back and ask for a refund....the manfacturer's don't expect you to buy the new model they are bringing out with all the previous bugs fixed. Cakewalk seems to taking the cake and eating it.

The likes of Noel and co who come on the forum to help out are great, I am not dogging them, it's that type of interaction that keeps clients happy and helps to rectify and perhaps bring forward improvements sooner, rather than later.

+1 to all of this ^^^^^^^^^
 
I think the 'Jack of all trades' approach often leads to compromise.
 
Maybe they could split production between creating a perfect DAW in one department, and maybe another completely separate department specialising in creating/updating VST's and VSTi's.
 
With 100% attention and no side-line projects to attend to, the former would be in a class of its own as a powerful host sequencer; the latter, with similar 100% dedication could easily compete with other companies that only produce 3rd party plugs. You never know, there might be enough customer uptake for such an approach, they could take on some more staff (or bring back some of the folk they had to let go).
 
 

I still believe that a fair-sized number of the types of issues that are out there have to do with 32-bit plugins on 64-bit machines, operator error, and trying to get it all to work on older computers, and/or older audio interfaces or other gear.
 
There are indeed some bugs in X2a, even on new computers with decent audio interfaces and Sonar-savvy folks, but show-stoppers seem to pop up more for the situations/folks I described above.
 
I think that Sonar working all the way through X2 (not the 'a' update), on XP, is pretty amazing, considering XP has been unsupported for a while, and due to the nature of the processing required for audio processing.
 
Anyways - I hope the original poster and all others find a combination of software and hardware that works for each to be able to pursue the creation of music, in as stable and stress-free a way as possible.
 
Bob Bone
 

I think the moral of the story is to do some solid research if you are thinking about buying any DAW. Some of the stuff for example that was mentioned concerning things that are not in Studio One are correct but then some of it is incorrect too. While that post was pointing out what is wrong with Studio One my post was pointing out what is right with it too and there is still a ton of stuff I have not mentioned either.
 
I used to think that running more than one DAW was a good idea but in a pressure situation it is definitely not. Once you get into another DAW the fact is you probably won't be using your current DAW very much or at all. You don't really need more than one DAW and all of them are capable of satisfying your requirements to produce music at a high standard if required, Studio One included.
 
Having said that though I am right into Harrison Mixbus as well and it works as a perfect partner to your current DAW. It replaces the whole ProChannel thing and adds some sweet EQ and tape saturation in the process and it also sounds bloody excellent too. It basically does the final mixing part of your projcet.
 
The notation thing could be a deal breaker for some I see that but there are even ways around that too if you really wanted to go that route.
 
Get on the websites, watch the videos, talk to people on the right forums and ask questions. Download demos and test things out for yourself. Although be careful with demos because in many cases a lot of the functionality is either reduced or not present. Note what is missing or does not work.

For anyone that remembers early versions of Sonar and the old forums- You could come on the forum day or night - back then there was that a list at the bottom that listed all the users that were currently online. After a while, you would learn to know who knew specific issues and could watch to see when that user was here so that you could message them and get the answer that you needed. But there were always 100's, and I mean literally 100's and 100's. Go back as far as you want and you'd find that the users that really loved Sonar, fully intended to stick around through the good and the bad and really only wanted the DAW to reach it's perfected potential and have always  mostly asked for Cakewalk to stop with the wizbang stuff and just make it work and fix issues. Many of us have seen our suggestions implemented over the years. But then there were the fanboys that didn't seem to care what Cakewalk did - it was all good. I have never believed that those people were helping Cakewalk at all. It seemed that every one of them where of closed mind and would not accept anyone that disagreed with any premise or found fault of any sort with Sonar. 
 
Cakewalk has always seemed to go for a larger and larger market share. That's business I suppose. But it ain't rocket science. Gaining larger market share, unless you have a absolute monopoly, always means cheaper. Usually cheapest. It only rarely means more technically specialized or perfected. Way back then they {Cakewalk}seemed to have had a core foundation of highly technical users that could accurately describe faults and management would always be on the boards to  discuss issues, discover limitations and discuss proposed solutions. Sometimes extremely technical stuff. A very few of those old days users are still around but most are gone. I assume that like me, when Cakewalk dumped on us for that final time by abandoning traditional  Sonar and went full steam ahead with the "clean sheet of paper" (to quote Greg Henderschott) into the X series with all of it's  NEW user "features" and UI and workflow changes, they stopped upgrading and stopped coming here too. Maybe just not a good fit anymore. I myself did buy X1, but have no use for it at all. For this studio owner, it is worthless. Too clunky, intimately familiar navigational features gone. It is foreign to me and I have no interest at all in learning Cakewalk's new generation methodology. So I am stuck at forever buggy 8.5.3 - at least until something better comes along.
 
As an aside, this board has devolved into a group of users that seem to squabble over who has a higher knowledge of music theory, people that argue endlessly without moderator oversight, smart alecks and trolls and someone that shows up saying he or she has dumped 18 tracks of something into Sonar that is not in tempo and wants to line up a drum track and needs to get it done today. What ? Most of the delightful users that always made it a joy to read their daily post's seem to be gone.
 
Now moderators globally delete posts by banned users with no explanation or notes, leaving dangling threads with later posts then totally out of context. Yeah, I know it was unintentional but like many things about Sonar, it was a bad call.
 
There is nothing wrong with it but many posts seem to be from new users that must have just got their hands Cakewalk Sonar and apparently have never even used a computer, microphone or installed a driver before. Evidently many get into Sonar with no recording background and with no effort to study the complex "mechanics"  of recording. Must be some sales gimmick that says get Sonar and instantly be a studio. Careful daily reading of the posts here and it is apparent that this board reflects the skill levels of the users. It doesn't look good long term for Cakewalk Sonar in my estimation. Sonar was supposed to be the flagship or top tier.
 
Sonar is complex - that's for sure. But it has had a ton of stuff added on that I know many studios have absolutely no need or use for. The problems Cakewalk now have are self inflicted. As far as I am concerned they told their long established core user base to beat it.
 
We have asked forever to fix it, complete it, whatever you want to call it. But what they have done is cheapen a product that was developed by extremely brilliant people into something that is almost toy like trying to turn it into a DAW that appealed to everyone. Pros want pro stuff that does the job, every time. I suspect that along the way they have lost many of those that really put Sonar to work everyday, stressed it to the max, had it running every plug imaginable and even across networks. Those people were the 80% that really helped provide the valuable technical development feedback. That was the philosophy that Cakewalk was built on.  Some of us literally starting pleading and begging  at version 6. Stop with the add ons in Sonar. Set us up as subscribers. We would pay.
 
I see you guys are still having the same dialog all these years later.
 

I purchased a new computer just to run Sonar X2a.........I've been using Reaper almost exclusively ever since. It just fits my workflow better and X2 still doesn't have countdown to playback which I can't seem to live without.  Drag/Drop of midi files works better, no pops and clicks in Reaper audio files and so on......
 
I'm not saying Reaper is better for everyone but it's better for my guitar tracks and getting used far more than Sonar these days.  I'm still trying to find a niche for X2 in my toolbox......most likely for synth based tracks but for my guitar work it just can't compete with Reaper. (key words "for me", "here" ,"in my opinion")
 
Reaper has a fully functional demo and is a tiny 9 meg download...........try it and see how it fits.  Nothing to lose.......
 
Cue the Sonar fanbois flame fest..........
 
 

Jeff Evans
Some of the stuff for example that was mentioned concerning things that are not in Studio One are correct but then some of it is incorrect too.

Which ones? I asked you about clip lock and fader grouping but you didn't answer. I know it's possible to use third-party MIDI plugins by taking an extra step of creating two tracks but that's different from saying the daw comes with MIDI effects. I don't mind being corrected but without knowing why I'm wrong I can't correct myself.

jbow
For those who may know... what about Reaper? It looks like a good start, a good business model. Is it good or does it have a good potential to become good? I am not currently on a track to change but curious minds want to know...
 
Curious... thanks.
 
J

My only issue with Reaper is that it works like it was designed by a committee of thousands.  I had to go into the menu system and cut out all the stuff that I don't use and reorganize the menu selections.  

Mod Bod

Jeff Evans
Studio One has many features, Most people just dont know about them. I use a lot of external midi stuff and it is very good for this. (as well as for audio too of course)
 
It is the only program that has been written from the ground up in recent years.
Best external midi timing. Does not get influenced by what the audio side of the program is doing.
PRV is fine for all midi work I have done so far. I play it in live so Step Sequencer is not important. For that use FL Studio it has the best step sequencer in the world.
Song Templates are available. All you need.
Clip lock is possible by simply selecting Dont Follow in the Inspector. Clips will never move no matter what you do.
Clip gain as per Pro Tools 10 and 11. Once you use this you will never go back.
It can jump midi tracks all on the fly while looping and recording. Sonar cannot do that.
Automation is excellent. You can also automate effects bypass.
K System metering built in.
One of the finest gapless audio engines available. You can do so much while it is playing it is not funny.
You can change the tempo of the whole arrangement by just changing the tempo.
Best time stretching algorithms
Finest track layers and comping available
A level of stability and reliability many DAW's cannot boast. I have never had a crash in years and I use it every day all day and under severe pressure at times. Most DAW's would fall over. Basically it is bulletproof. No workarounds needed and you don't have to tip toe around it either.
I have got a midi panic button on my midi interface, solves that issue.
Very nice instruments and audio effects
Some say it sounds better than most DAW's (I am not convinced of this though as I can manage a good sound from any DAW I use)
It plays nicely with nearly any VST you want to install and run.
You can group anything in either mixer or arrange page.
Great export options.
They have not wasted their time on a half arsed score editor.
Separate and very cool mastering page.
Mac version available. The new Mac Pro is amazing. All you need is the Apollo interface with the UAD stuff inside and you are on the air seriously. Studio one will run like the starship Enterprise on that baby!
Most important thing yet, you will never waste a moment getting the program or your computer to work. You will produce the most music possible using this DAW.
 
It is a killer program and when the next version comes out it will be even more so.
 

I've got to agree.  I downloaded the demo in order to finish a project and I bought the Pro version in a little over a week.  I will still use SONAR for certain clients but I find working in S1 more to my liking because of the console view that shows more than two sends and it's lean and mean GUI design.  I'd like to have Track templates but most of the reason I use SONAR track templates is to work around my dislike about how mono inputs show up in the drop down menus.

Thanks! I take your opinions seriously, you never seem to hedge or mess around. (that is a compliment).
With all the other things I need, like better mics, I will wait to see what the next "thing" from Cakewalk brings but if it isn't my thing, I guess 399 isn't that much.
J

SuperG
 
 
You can plug a USB audio device, a hard drive, a memory stick, none of them need drivers in Windows, 'It's all built in'. 'It just works'. (Hey, this Apple speak is easy..)

It's easy because you are ignoring half of the actual statement once again - yes you can plug and play in Windows. But if you want to obtain acceptable performance in your DAW you will need ASIO drivers. Windows' own drivers are crap. Apples DEFAULT drivers are rock solid and offer top notch performance.
 
Opinions are opinions and as long as one doesn't distort the facts to discredit other people's opinion and label it Apple Speak as you do, I'm fine with it. 
 
 

Rain

SuperG
 
 
You can plug a USB audio device, a hard drive, a memory stick, none of them need drivers in Windows, 'It's all built in'. 'It just works'. (Hey, this Apple speak is easy..)

It's easy because you are ignoring half of the actual statement once again - yes you can plug and play in Windows. But if you want to obtain acceptable performance in your DAW you will need ASIO drivers. Windows' own drivers are crap. Apples DEFAULT drivers are rock solid and offer top notch performance.
 
Opinions are opinions and as long as one doesn't distort the facts to discredit other people's opinion and label it Apple Speak as you do, I'm fine with it. 
 
 

Good point: as long as one doesn't distort the facts. Exactly what I've been avoiding here - in fact I've been clarifying them.
 
Apple speak is the distortion one gives when claiming a superiority that just plain doesn't exist.
 
Ex.:

• Top notch performance
• Rock solid
• acceptable performance

 
The words are useless without quantification/qualification. Fluff. Rock solid?
 
Mac's go belly up all the time.
 
Things don't exactly drop off the map overnight in Windows land with an OS upgrade. There are systems available within windows OS that have been there since the Windows 3.1 that are still supported. COM, DDS, Vfw, and so on. One of the is the old wave interface (MME), you've got your DirectSound, you got you WDM Kernel Streaming which supports WaveRT, and of course you've got vendor supplied ASIO drivers.
 
For Daw use, you can use either a vendors ASIO or the WDM/KS audio driver channels, either will allow you to set a real time latency. Although, Sonar allows it, the old MME drivers are still there for applications which do not support the real-time interfaces (and probably don't need to). This of course, all works using only the motherboard mounted, oft-discounted (heh) , Realtek audio chip. The poor Realtek doesn't come with ASIO drivers, but with WDM/KS WaveRT, it isn't absolutely needed. You can set your sample latencies in Sonar for WDM/KS WaveRT the same as you do for ASIO. [Unqualified observation] - It just works.
 
Of course, I've just got a new MOTU ultralite and wahoo!, you can speak to it, either old MME wave, real-time WDM, or ASIO too. You pick your poison.
 
 
So you see, Windows has a really nice driver architecture, which has manged to flourish in form from 16 bits, on to 32, and finally 64 bit processing. This can't be said for apple products. They screwed themselves in the old days by limiting themselves to 24 bit addressing, and using the upper 8 bits to pass data - a big baddy no-no that made moving to a true 32 bit architecture withe the PPC a monstrous effort. Of course, they chucked it all when moving to Wintel architecture. They were smart to use BSD as an operating system (with an Apple GUI glued on), probably would've taken them forever to build one up from scratch. Core Audio/Core Midi wasn't some revolutionary new Apple technology, it was a solution Apple was forced to build. Since Apple adopted BSD, and Unix didn't have much in the way of real-time audio driver architecture (in some cases any audio driver at all...), Apple had to make one. Same for midi - 'no choice pal...'
 
The point of this post is, Apple has as many warts and skeletons in its closet as Microsoft does, arguably more. If you go off tooting about Apple vs Wintel, and how great Mac's are, well, there's way much more to the story....
 

OK - you have convinced me that you are defensive about your Apple computer.
 
(kidding - just couldn't resist that).
 
Although I am a PC user, I do believe the Apple OS to be superior to Windows.  My family just had a real bad experience way back when with Apple 2E having a motherboard design issue, and as a fledgling company Apple simply turned off the support phone so nobody could call to complain.  When they DID start making money, they NEVER went back to address their earlier stumble.  My folks had spent literally THOUSANDS decades ago, and while they were getting praise for their Mac release, they were at the same time screwing over a bunch of Apple IIE customers.
 
So, off to the land of PC's went we.
 
Bob Bone
 

Something I personally can't stand:
Apple's totalitarian control over everything you do with your iPhone... via iTunes.
With my Galaxy S4 (replaced iPhone 4), I simply drag/drop the tunes I want via Windows Explorer.  So simple... and elegant.
No need for iTunes... and being constrained.  I'm in control...
 
So there you have it:

• Macs are for the cool kids
• PCs are for control freaks

 
I love it when an iPhone guy looks forlornly at the display of my Galaxy S3. They know the fan-boy show's over. 
 
iTunes just frosts me. Everything there has an automatic 30% percent markup (the 'idiot' tax), unless you happen to be a beellion dollar company than can force a negotiation. For that kinda markup - there ought to be bricks, mortar, and a free foot manicure too.
 
I can choose to buy or download from Google Play, I can go to an alternative app store, or I can even install app manually. Can't do that with the Fruity Firm - you gotta bend over and take it from them.
 

btw, i think windows kind of sucks but is the lesser of two evils for me at the moment.  I'm partial to Linux but it's just not practical to run linux all the time