pbognar
 
Excellent.  So now that there appears to be general consensus on what is in and out of scope for fixes / functionality enhancements, how do we effectively communicate this to Cakewalk?
 
We have been told that the official method is through the Feature Request forum.  To get the most traction, a very specific feature request would need to be created which would be satisfactory for the bulk of us.

 
I forget the exact post, but someone did just that (maybe even in this thread!) - listed a specific handful of "fix these, and you'll have something workable." IIRC it was a doable, well-thought out collection.
 

I nominate Craig.  If they don't listen to him, they won't listen to anyone.  

Actually the way it works is I provide data as to my opinion, but what they do with the data is up to them. I've made plenty of suggestions that were greeted with, shall we say, "polite indifference" 

Anderton

pbognar
 
Excellent.  So now that there appears to be general consensus on what is in and out of scope for fixes / functionality enhancements, how do we effectively communicate this to Cakewalk?
 
We have been told that the official method is through the Feature Request forum.  To get the most traction, a very specific feature request would need to be created which would be satisfactory for the bulk of us.

 
I forget the exact post, but someone did just that (maybe even in this thread!) - listed a specific handful of "fix these, and you'll have something workable." IIRC it was a doable, well-thought out collection.
 

I nominate Craig.  If they don't listen to him, they won't listen to anyone.  

Actually the way it works is I provide data as to my opinion, but what they do with the data is up to them. I've made plenty of suggestions that were greeted with, shall we say, "polite indifference" 

 
Here's a list that seems to reflect the majority of users on the forum:
 
1.  Ensure that the snap-function works correctly.  When selecting a 16th note, the snap should move by that amount (with an override option of course).   Same with all note values.   Now, a smaller note value will cancel out Sonar's ability to snap to larger note values.
 
2.  Tied and dotted triplets, 32nd note triplets and 64th notes should display correctly.
 
3.  When screensets are used and switched back and forth, the order of the instruments in the staff view track pane becomes confused.
 
4.  When trying to open a note's properties when that note is on the first space or below the the staff, it doesn't always work easily.
 
Some users may want the note icons back, I personally use hot keys for that, but would not complain if CW put them back into the staff view.
 
I cannot think of anything else that is required to make the staff view into a solid MIDI editor.  I realize some people are going say "link dynamic marks to midi velocity", or "give us the ability to put staccato dots, ties, slurs and other performance markings in the staff view", but this is unnecessary since that information is already in the event list, the properties of the note and the PRV.  A musician who is really knowledgeable about creating a finished score will not use any DAW to create it whether it be Sonar, PT, Cubase, Logic or DP, so CW should not worry about that; it is quite easy to export the SMF to Finale or Sibelius and create a professional score with all the necessary articulations, part extraction capability, layout flexibility, print options, etc. 
 
I hope all users know this:  The more you expect the staff view to be a notation program the less likely CW will take the incremental steps to upgrade the staff view.  There is a lot of disinformation on the web.  Yesterday I read an article where the writer called Sibelius a "DAW", he obviously is not aware that Sibelius is not a music or audio production tool.
 
Thank you Craig for being an advocate for staff view improvements.   Much appreciate that you take the time to interact on the forum.
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 

konradh
• Add ability to correct enharmonics via Find/Change.  Example: Use Find/Change to change all Fb5 to E5.

Hi Konrad-
 
You can do this already. To change Fb to E in *all* octaves:
1. In the Process > Find/Change Event Filter - Search dialog, enter Fb? for both the Min and Max note.
2. Press OK.
3. In the Event Filter - Replace dialog, enter E? for both the Min and Max note.
4. Press OK.
 
For just Fb5, replace the "?" above with "5".
 
-Susan
 

Thanks for the effort Jerry, I've passed the info along to the Bakers. 

pbognar

jsg

Anderton

pbognar
 
Excellent.  So now that there appears to be general consensus on what is in and out of scope for fixes / functionality enhancements, how do we effectively communicate this to Cakewalk?
 
We have been told that the official method is through the Feature Request forum.  To get the most traction, a very specific feature request would need to be created which would be satisfactory for the bulk of us.

 
I forget the exact post, but someone did just that (maybe even in this thread!) - listed a specific handful of "fix these, and you'll have something workable." IIRC it was a doable, well-thought out collection.
 

I nominate Craig.  If they don't listen to him, they won't listen to anyone.  

Actually the way it works is I provide data as to my opinion, but what they do with the data is up to them. I've made plenty of suggestions that were greeted with, shall we say, "polite indifference" 

 
Here's a list that seems to reflect the majority of users on the forum:
 
1.  Ensure that the snap-function works correctly.  When selecting a 16th note, the snap should move by that amount (with an override option of course).   Same with all note values.   Now, a smaller note value will cancel out Sonar's ability to snap to larger note values.
 
2.  Tied and dotted triplets, 32nd note triplets and 64th notes should display correctly.
 
3.  When screensets are used and switched back and forth, the order of the instruments in the staff view track pane becomes confused.
 
4.  When trying to open a note's properties when that note is on the first space or below the the staff, it doesn't always work easily.
 
Some users may want the note icons back, I personally use hot keys for that, but would not complain if CW put them back into the staff view.
 
I cannot think of anything else that is required to make the staff view into a solid MIDI editor.  I realize some people are going say "link dynamic marks to midi velocity", or "give us the ability to put staccato dots, ties, slurs and other performance markings in the staff view", but this is unnecessary since that information is already in the event list, the properties of the note and the PRV.  A musician who is really knowledgeable about creating a finished score will not use any DAW to create it whether it be Sonar, PT, Cubase, Logic or DP, so CW should not worry about that; it is quite easy to export the SMF to Finale or Sibelius and create a professional score with all the necessary articulations, part extraction capability, layout flexibility, print options, etc. 
 
I hope all users know this:  The more you expect the staff view to be a notation program the less likely CW will take the incremental steps to upgrade the staff view.  There is a lot of disinformation on the web.  Yesterday I read an article where the writer called Sibelius a "DAW", he obviously is not aware that Sibelius is not a music or audio production tool.
 
Thank you Craig for being an advocate for staff view improvements.   Much appreciate that you take the time to interact on the forum.
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 

Jerry, thanks for taking the lead in compiling a succinct list.
 
These limitations with triplets are a problem for me:
 
- Triplets must occur in full sets of three.
- All three steps in a triplet must be notes (no rests) of the same basic duration.
- There can be no ties in or out of, or within the triplet.
 
The second one is the worst - not being able to have embedded or leading rests in a group of triplets.

These are most definitely not a insurmountable problem because you CAN input these figures (nested triplets) and MIDI will play them back precisely as written (expressively is up to the composer/arranger/producer).  I always have a calculator and a reference list of note values and tic values. when working. For example, if a quarter note is 480, a triplet eighth is 160, the 2nd, and nested triplet would be 160/3 or 53 Rounded down.  Programming in the event list these values at the correct measure, beat and tick will give you a triplet within a triplet.  Same with rests in triplets. Just remove the note.  Sonar will playback the rhythm correctly. Export to Sibelius and Sibelius interprets the midi data--not the graphics in the staff view!  It is notated exactly the way it is supposed to be.  Yes it is a limitation, but only in display, not in real-time execution on playback or export to a dedicated notation program.  So there is no reason for a composer not to write all kinds of tied notes, dotted notes, changing meters, asymmetrical meters, polyrhythms, phrase beaming, tempo modulation or tempo change-- Sonar handles those quite well.  Of course if you really don't want to write this way, don't do it, or it will sound contrived and forced. 
 
I hope this helps.
Listen to rhythmic flow of this piece, sequenced and produced in Sonar:
www.jerrygerber.com/     (track #9, Windy Hop)
or this one:  same webpage, track #7, Rhapsody.
 
 
JG
 
 
 
 
 

jsg
 
Here's a list that seems to reflect the majority of users on the forum:
 
1.  Ensure that the snap-function works correctly.  When selecting a 16th note, the snap should move by that amount (with an override option of course).   Same with all note values.   Now, a smaller note value will cancel out Sonar's ability to snap to larger note values.
 
2.  Tied and dotted triplets, 32nd note triplets and 64th notes should display correctly.
 
3.  When screensets are used and switched back and forth, the order of the instruments in the staff view track pane becomes confused.
 
4.  When trying to open a note's properties when that note is on the first space or below the the staff, it doesn't always work easily.
 
5 . Note icons back in SV
 
 

I amended 5 to include 5 and removed the parts that make it personal to you, as you started saying this is what users want, and ended by making it look like what you want. I think more would like 5 than say 3 and are mystified how this ever changed in the first place.
 
6. Have the snap to position determined by the Snap option, and be independent of the note length.   

Kamikaze

jsg
 
Here's a list that seems to reflect the majority of users on the forum:
 
1.  Ensure that the snap-function works correctly.  When selecting a 16th note, the snap should move by that amount (with an override option of course).   Same with all note values.   Now, a smaller note value will cancel out Sonar's ability to snap to larger note values.
 
2.  Tied and dotted triplets, 32nd note triplets and 64th notes should display correctly.
 
3.  When screensets are used and switched back and forth, the order of the instruments in the staff view track pane becomes confused.
 
4.  When trying to open a note's properties when that note is on the first space or below the the staff, it doesn't always work easily.
 
5 . Note icons back in SV
 
 

I amended 5 to include 5 and removed the parts that make it personal to you, as you started saying this is what users want, and ended by making it look like what you want. I think more would like 5 than say 3 and are mystified how this ever changed in the first place.
 
6. Have the snap to position determined by the Snap option, and be independent of the note length.   

Kamikaze:  Please don't amend what I write, instead, write your own words instead.   Your #6 duplicates my #1 (the overriding of the the snap function is the same thing as having the snap function independent of note length, it should have both options, snap follows note length and snap does not follow note length).  
 
The screenset issue should be of concern to CW because since X1, the screensets are billed as an important new feature. When switching back and forth causes the track order to get jumbled in the staff view track pane, this really impacts workflow hence I can't use screensets although I'd like to be able to.
 
JG

konradh
Susan G, I have tried that 100 times including just now.  I don't know why it doesn't work and people keep telling me it does.  Odd.
 
With all respect to those who have tried to help, have you actually used Find/Change this way, or are you just suggesting that I try that?
 
How can I post screen shots showing this issue?

I've done it a million times.  You can use Find-Change (it's also called Interpolate on the right-click context menu in staff view) to change all e-flats (regardless of octave) to d# (regardless of octave).
 
Use the question-mark symbol (?) to designate that you want any and all octaves to be affected in the selection.
It works.  I do it all the time.   Of course you can also do one note at a time, but that's the very slow way.
 
Jerry
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

This is really cool, being able to change a bunch of notes all at once like that. Very useful when Sonar keeps giving you E#'s, when a straight F nat would look so much neater, esp. in a complex chord. Now, what I would like to know: is there a quick and dirty way to change all my CC 7's to 11's all at once? I used CC7 in earlier projects as the on-the-fly volume adjustment, and now as I revise those works, I have top go through every instrument (of course it's full orchestra), and change them all to 11's. (I know this isn't technically a staff view issue, but since we're on the subject of tricks and tips...

michael diemer
Also, can someone clarify this for me: When you say "triplets," you are including quintuplets, septuplits, treskadikaduplets, and so forth, right?

Yes, there are two meanings to the word "triplets", the first being literal, i.e. groups of 3.   But any asymmetrical grouping of notes, such as 5, 7, 9, 11, etc. are also included in the broader sense.  Sonar can handle any of these, it's simply a matter of knowing the number of ticks in the note and advancing the clock that same number of ticks.  

jsg, Thanks.  I am very familiar with Find/Change (Interpolate).
 
Susan G, Thanks.  I had partial success.  If I use Fb? => E?, it seems to work, whereas Fb5 => E5 does not.  In fact, the Find/Change box changes the E5 to Fb5 in the dialog box.  You can see this happen as you hit enter and when you go back to the function. 
 
Using ? makes the function more limited, but I suppose one could do a Filter first to select only a specific octave.  So thanks for the suggestion: there is still a bug here but at least this will take care of many problems.
 
NOTE: The Find/Change box will not accept bb (double-flat) so there is no solution for that.

konradh
jsg, Thanks.  I am very familiar with Find/Change (Interpolate).
 
Susan G, Thanks.  I had partial success.  If I use Fb? => E?, it seems to work, whereas Fb5 => E5 does not.  In fact, the Find/Change box changes the E5 to Fb5 in the dialog box.  You can see this happen as you hit enter and when you go back to the function. 
 
Using ? makes the function more limited, but I suppose one could do a Filter first to select only a specific octave.  So thanks for the suggestion: there is still a bug here but at least this will take care of many problems.
 
NOTE: The Find/Change box will not accept bb (double-flat) so there is no solution for that.

Konrad, I know what's going on.  In an earlier version (I'm on X3e) there was a bug that would not let me change G# to A-flat.  I could do all the other ones fine, but that one didn't work.  I haven't noticed it lately, it may be gone in X3e.  If you are familiar with the find/change function, that is the rightt function to change a batch of enharmonic spellings at once.
Did you try it with another note to see if you are running into the bug I just described?
 

konradh
Thanks to both of you for the help.  Yes, I have tried the function with many other notes.  It seems there is some weird X1 code messing me up.
 
I plan to upgrade soon and maybe this will go away.  In the meantime, I appreciate y'all providing me a work-around!
 
(I know I shouldn't worry about enharmonics but 1-I am OCD, 2-I am classically trained and these things look wrong, and 3-I am really, really OCD.)
 

If you are making a final score, yes, it is right to be concerned about enharmonic spelling if you're writing tonal music.  Many composers who write highly chromatic and/or serial music are not concerned with correct enharmonic spelling because those spelling traditions are relative to the major-minor system of functional (common-practice) harmony. 
 
In Sonar, when using the staff view as a midi editor, I sometimes correct the enharmonics but often I do not and just correct it in Sibelius.  It's far quicker to make the enharmonic change in Sibelius than in Sonar. 

interpolated
I think it should be at least an optional component as not many DAW do actually offer good notation support. Logic, Digital Performer (AFAIK), Cubase and Sibelius as a Rewire component. It would actually make sense to make it VST3 only, so the 16 track limitation won't be an issue and the use of MIDI banks to make export of MIDI an option between applications.
 

I have often wished that Cakewalk's MFX format was more universally supported, and would love to see an MFX staff view/notation "app". Musiclab would've been the guys to do it but they abandoned MFX apps years ago. A lot of the development in notation apps these days seems to be in improving the quality of the built in instruments, which just adds to the overhead when loading the app in SONAR. If I already own an orchestral library I like, why buy (and load) something else built into Notion, Sibellius, etc? But, yes, in general, I agree with you that I would prefer a VST3 instrument version to Rewire.