rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 14:53:49
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Robert - I checked, and all your notes are there. You understand those are scrolling text boxes - Your notes are long enough for the scroll bar to show up to the right.
Or did you mean something else?
RB
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Guitarpima
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 15:05:51
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The page must not have loaded correctly.
I am suprised that only a few had detailed notes as to what they did.
Jonas was busy though. I think I saw 6 or 7 of his entries.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 15:09:02
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Wow... I don't know what to say, other than... thanks!!!! I am surprised that enough people thought my low-rent version was worthy enough to make the cut. There were some really good renditions posted, enough that it took me days to narrow it down. Funny though, one of my favorites all along was # 2, and that turns out to be Randy's.  As far as DimPro and TTS go, they may not be considered "high end" but I've always believed that the included content is more capable than most would expect. And since I don't own any other libraries at all, well, I didn't have much choice! It's a good thing that EQ and reverb can go a long way... But the icing on the cake? That was definitely Boost11 on the master bus. All orchestras should use it.  Anyhow... thanks again to Randy and Bit for organizing and hosting this competition. I was happy to be a part of it. And I'm ecstatic to be writing this response! Wow...
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 15:09:52
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Guitarpima
The page must not have loaded correctly.
I am suprised that only a few had detailed notes as to what they did.
Jonas was busy though. I think I saw 6 or 7 of his entries.
OK, but now you see all your notes I guess? It was up to each person what notes they wanted to include. Some were very detailed, like yours, some used the minimalist approach. I think that worked out better than if there had been some form to fill out. The way those notes are written seems to say something between-the-lines about how people work and their attitude towards music and how they approach it. REVERB - I think the way reverb was handled in these entries had an important impact on the way people voted. I hope to see some discussion on that. RB
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 15:23:17
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stevec
Wow... I don't know what to say, other than... thanks!!!! I am surprised that enough people thought my low-rent version was worthy enough to make the cut. There were some really good renditions posted, enough that it took me days to narrow it down. Funny though, one of my favorites all along was # 2, and that turns out to be Randy's.
As far as DimPro and TTS go, they may not be considered "high end" but I've always believed that the included content is more capable than most would expect. And since I don't own any other libraries at all, well, I didn't have much choice! It's a good thing that EQ and reverb can go a long way... But the icing on the cake? That was definitely Boost11 on the master bus. All orchestras should use it.
Anyhow... thanks again to Randy and Bit for organizing and hosting this competition. I was happy to be a part of it. And I'm ecstatic to be writing this response! Wow...
There he is! Our first winner to check in on this thread. Congrats, Steve - You did a great job! And thanks for letting me know you like my #2 entry. I feel pretty good about that effort - complete with its "dryer than what most people do" reverb usage. Making it punchy and dramatic was my main goal. But the entries that Bitflipper and I did weren't really in the running. We easily decided early on that there was no way we'd be giving ourselves prizes. Oooooh, I bet if more Sonar users catch your reference to Boost 11, you'd have quite a heated discussion on your hands. Many feel, and I'm afraid I'm one of them, that Boost 11 is a sonic-destroyer, with too few controls, and something I wouldn't want near my orchestral work. - ! - See, I've already started that conversation. So glad you're happy, Steve - You'll be hearing from me soon via email about how the prize distribution will work. RB
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Guitarpima
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 15:28:53
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Agreed about the notes.
I thought most entries had way too much reverb. It's been a while since I've been to a concert hall to see an orchestra and I don't recall any hall having that much reverb. I guess that's another personal preference thing.
I thought some of the entries had too much compression. I started to use compression but decided to only use just the Opto Compressor (IK Mulimedia) on the main bus. I set it to 1:1. It did not help the sound to add more. Compressors also take away from the dynamics of the instruments.
That snare roll! I spent and entire evening trying to get that roll to sound good. I ended up settling. I got the tympani roll to sound good. The technique for the two rolls are different so what worked for the tympani did not for the snare.
I had to disagree with your comments about panning the basses center Randy. I think it was you that said that panning them center in the mix was ok. I think authentic seating/panning is best.
I wish I had a few more days to spend on mine (went camping). I would have liked to spend more time on EQ and improve the dynamics a bit.
It was fun still. Learned a lot on placement. Very cool!
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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LpMike75
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 16:10:33
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1) I am completely flattered that my version received more than 1 vote! I did put quite a bit of effort into it as many other people did with theirs as well. I am with Guitarpima with that snare roll, I worked on that alot, making very little headway.
2) I also agree with panning the instruments according to seating charts ( I realize there may be several acceptable ones). As far as reverb, I can think of atleast one entry off the top of my head that would of sounded excellent but they had used too much reverb. (IMO of course) There is certainly ambience in orchestral halls but trying to get that right is probably a pretty big learning curve. I think it is needed to place instruments in a 3D type enviornment and also to fill out the stereo field to make a more realistic sound. IE the instruments panned far left are still going to be echoing through the entire hall, not just being heard from your left ear. I wish I was better with reverbs, part of the reason I want to review everyones entry notes, so I can see how they approached the verbs.
-Mike
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bitflipper
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 16:20:18
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Good points about reverbs, Mike. Given how important reverb is to orchestral realism, are we all making a mistake by sending each instrument to a common reverb bus that has essentially mono output? I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to use a true stereo reverb (one that processes left and right independently) and use the send pans to position not only the instrument but its reflections as well.
Just wondering out loud. I do not have any true stereo reverbs to experiment with myself.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 16:45:55
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This is great to finally be discussing things with more detail, now that all the info has been posted at the Trek site.
Congrats, Mike!--Good to see you here, soaking up the applause you so well deserve. Really nice track you produced.
Here are a few thoughts on the seating chart thing and panning which you and Robert "Guitarpima" mentioned:
--There are basically two ways to do orchestral recordings using virtual instruments. One is to do it As If the music is being performed in a concert hall. The other is to produce the music in any way imaginable, with the goal of just having a good sounding recording rather one which is sticking to the rules of live performance.
I use one of the seating chart variations as only a starting place. But I'm much more concerned with putting together a good sound recording. I think it's more interesting to focus on the possibilities of recordings, the way we hear in movie sound tracks where the balance of instruments is nothing like can be done in a concert hall.
Having bass frequencies at the center of a recording's stereo field is a long-established rule because that balance sounds so much better - it Feels balanced. Of course originally engineers were concerned with record players' needles jumping the groove if the bass was off to the side.
But it was from a pro recording engineer where I first got this idea of moving the basses of an orchestra to center. This was years ago when I read the engineers description of how he mixes orchestras - can't remember his name, but I've seen the same points made several times since then by other engineers. This man was recording live orchestras, and arranging the seating so it would sound best on a recording - not so listeners could close their eyes and imagine they're in a concert hall where things are so off-kilter, with the basses over on the stage left (audience right) side.
This engineer also moves the 2nd string section directly opposite from the 1st string section because it gives a really nice depth to the stereo image - rather than having all those high strings lumped together on stage right.
Those changes to the seating sound great to me, and they're endorsed by some engineers--and actually, some conductors move their sections around to achieve different balances in live concerts also.
So the point is, there's no need to agree or disagree with changing the location of instruments. It's something that's done sometimes, all in the cause of trying to get better sounding playback. We all have the choice to restrict ourselves to a live seating chart - or not. Neither approach is "wrong" or "right."
We need to not assume that just because someone is using orchestral samples that he automatically has a desire to emulate classical seating and the sound of a live concert.
IMHO, freeing ourselves from reality almost Always makes for more interesting recordings. That's my pop-sensibility livening up my classical-sensibility.
Randy B.
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 16:45:58
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Regarding reverb...
I found myself panning the tracks, their sends, and the FX busses themselves. I'm not sure that all three were actually necessary in the end, I was just trying to acheive the effect of being able to locate an instrument over to the left, but also getting some reflections (of varying degrees) from the back and the opposite wall on the right. IOW, a little more natural and not so "headphone-ish"... (which I usually wear since I do this stuff at night)
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 16:58:28
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Congrats, Steve - You did a great job! Why, thank you sir! I'm just happy to have participated in the process. I don't think I've ever done a completely orchestral piece of any kind, so this was a good experience. It's certainly something I wouldn't mind doing again. And thanks for letting me know you like my #2 entry. I feel pretty good about that effort - complete with its "dryer than what most people do" reverb usage. Making it punchy and dramatic was my main goal. But the entries that Bitflipper and I did weren't really in the running. We easily decided early on that there was no way we'd be giving ourselves prizes. It actually was the first entry that really stood out to me, and remained that way even after days of listening. There's something "natural" about the brass that caught my ear from the start, and all the other components fit in very well. Oooooh, I bet if more Sonar users catch your reference to Boost 11, you'd have quite a heated discussion on your hands. Many feel, and I'm afraid I'm one of them, that Boost 11 is a sonic-destroyer, with too few controls, and something I wouldn't want near my orchestral work. - ! - See, I've already started that conversation. Oh, I know. That's why I was sure to include it in my notes!  To be honest, when I was about to mix down I figured my "DP and TTS" mix wasn't so critical that I needed Ozone, not to mention my aging Athlon64 was struggling. So I just threw Boost11 on the master bus. After a few adjustments I thought "yeah, that'll work OK". I don't think it squashed things too bad...?
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Johannes H
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 17:10:07
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Here is a website about different seating plans: http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/seating.html I used one of those were the 2nd violins are moved to the other side as my mixing guide, I think it sounds better that way. About reverb, I think some of the entries have too much of it. But I think that orchestral music needs a little bit more reverb than rock/pop. Best, JH
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 17:10:40
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stevec
Regarding reverb...
I found myself panning the tracks, their sends, and the FX busses themselves. I'm not sure that all three were actually necessary in the end, I was just trying to acheive the effect of being able to locate an instrument over to the left, but also getting some reflections (of varying degrees) from the back and the opposite wall on the right. IOW, a little more natural and not so "headphone-ish"... (which I usually wear since I do this stuff at night)
Those were worthy experiments, Steve, and considering how good your track sounds, I think you accomplished some good results with your use of reverb. Here's something Guitarpima said that I concur with, "...I thought most entries had way too much reverb. It's been a while since I've been to a concert hall to see an orchestra and I don't recall any hall having that much reverb..." I feel it's a really common problem with orchestral emulations - People tend to pour the reverb on so heavily. The results often sound like the listener is standing at the very back of a very large and EMPTY auditorium. It's partly a pre-set problem - these huge reverb programs being used As Is, without shortening their tail, without playing with the diffusion, without at least trying out whatever tools a reverb has available to tone the effect down. It's not just a matter of how much signal is going through the reverb via a send, but what's happening to the signal once it's inside the reverb unit. The fully wet version of most reverbs, convolution and otherwise, Do sound like they're empty rooms--because that's what they are!--literally, in the case of impulse responses. They aren't meant to be used As Is - or recordings will always sound like they were done in large, empty houses. I blame part of this issue on the currently popular GIGANTIC sound of Hollywood sound tracks. People try to emulate that and most often fail - they just end up with impossibly reverberant, mushy tracks. Engineers of the modern sound tracks are masters at having lots of huge sounding reverb but with the instruments still distinct and not drowned in that hugeness. If only people would emulate the sound of old movie sound tracks. It's so refreshing to hear the tracks of movies done in the '40's, 50's, on into the '60's and maybe beyond that. Those orchestras were playing in studios that weren't very large, and that's the way they sound. It's a nice, honest, not overly-inflated sound where the music has an intimate quality even when it's Big. - I predict the current taste for the HUGE sound will go away at some point, and none too soon for my taste. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 17:14:44
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"... I don't think it squashed things too bad...?" Not at all, Steve - You made excellent use of what is considered a fairly crude tool, Boost 11. Fun that you purposely included that plug-in in your notes - to see what folks would say.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 17:17:59
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Johannes H
Here is a website about different seating plans:
http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/seating.html
I used one of those were the 2nd violins are moved to the other side as my mixing guide, I think it sounds better that way.
About reverb, I think some of the entries have too much of it.
But I think that orchestral music needs a little bit more reverb than rock/pop.
Best, JH
Hi, Johannes - Good to hear from you. I sure enjoyed your Dream Station entry. Very neat, that you have a seating chart with the 2nd violins moved opposite the 1st violins, as I was describing. That Is an alternative to traditional seating which is being used more now. I feel there's no question it's an improvement. Reverb - it's a tricky thing. Orchestral music does need more room to breathe than rock/pop - people just too easily go off the deep end with it. RB
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DaneStewart
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 17:18:42
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I am SOOOO NOT SURPRISED that the East/West Gold library showed up so dominantly in the favorites.
I have consistently found it to be the most realistic...and my fool self bought the VIENNA library too...OUCH!
The VIENNA is great to be sure... but much of it is a bit stiff sounding - like old sample libraries.
I have no idea how they did it with the East/West....but they sure did.
Great work everyone!
~DPS
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 18:25:04
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Guitarpima
That snare roll! I spent an entire evening trying to get that roll to sound good. I ended up settling. I got the tympani roll to sound good.
Notice in Dave Chick's notes for his first place winning entry, #30, he says, "...Trills and rolls were replaced by single samples..."
Certainly a good thing to use sampled rolls when they're available in a library. And to utilize whatever a given library has in its arsenal was well within the parameters of the contest. To use the snare roll's individual notes, as they are in the raw MIDI file for this, it called for Mucho editing - #1 thing being to mess up their quantized timing. I noticed something controversial that came up on the other thread was whether the percussion should swell or not in the final measures. I had my rolls swelling up like crazy because that's the way I wanted to hear it. It could be educational for people to post isolated tracks, like what they did with the snare or tympani roll. Randy B.
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Twigman
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 18:38:21
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I used the Dave Chick method of replacing the trills and rolls with single samples.
My headache came with the final snare roll (before and behind the timpani roll)...my sample just could not loop for long enough and as a result faded away just as the timpani roll came in - I could not for the life of me work out how to stretch it to sound for long enough!!
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 18:42:42
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It's not just a matter of how much signal is going through the reverb via a send, but what's happening to the signal once it's inside the reverb unit. The fully wet version of most reverbs, convolution and otherwise, Do sound like they're empty rooms--because that's what they are!--literally, in the case of impulse responses. They aren't meant to be used As Is - or recordings will always sound like they were done in large, empty houses. Ah... another thing I forgot about - my memory sucks.  EQ-ing the reverb! I often do that as well, and I definitely did that here. If I recall correctly I removed both some highs and lows from the short reflection FX bus, and mostly highs from the long reflection FX bus. I think it helps to smooth things out.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 18:49:37
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Hello everyone! I decided to make an account over here so I can partake in the discussion that's going on. First, a HUGE thanks to Randy and Bitflipper for running this contest, and an even bigger thanks to Garry for providing such amazing prizes! Thanks to all those who voted for my entry. I went into this contest being quite sure that I would get at the most 2 or 3 votes, not counting my own. I'm simply amazed that my entry was liked enough to get 2nd place! I saw someone mention something about weird panning somewhere. I actually didn't do anything with panning. The instruments come with a "built in" panning, so they're automatically in their correct positions with out me having to do anything to them. Also, if anyone has any comments/criticisms about my entry I would love to hear them. I'm very interested in why you did/didn't vote for my entry, as I'm always trying to improve my work. Thanks again to all those who voted for me! Edit: If you have any questions about how I made my entry, feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to explain stuff.
post edited by Michael135 - 2010/09/02 18:50:48
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nprime
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 18:57:44
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Hey Michael! Your entry was my favorite. I thought everything was exactly as it should be. Well done.
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Attomik Punk
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 19:26:01
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Hey All! Congrats to the winners and a big THANK YOU to Randy and Bit!!
I'm enjoying reading the notes while I'm re-listening to each entry.
Also, enjoying the discussion so far...I have 'lots to learn. Looking forward to more, more, more...
~Dan
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 19:29:50
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Twigman
I used the Dave Chick method of replacing the trills and rolls with single samples.
My headache came with the final snare roll (before and behind the timpani roll)...my sample just could not loop for long enough and as a result faded away just as the timpani roll came in - I could not for the life of me work out how to stretch it to sound for long enough!!
I remember you talking about that before, Ian. That's not a very helpful roll sample - not being able to have it any length you want. There are two very nice drum rolls in GPO, with snares, and without. You hit the key, and the volume is controlled by the mod wheel, so you can easily perform crescendos, and play the sample as long as you want since it's a loop that's triggered for as long as you hold the key down. Very nice. And of course there are single hit samples of the same drums so you can combine rolls and hits. Works great to finish a roll off with a louder single hit of the one shot sample. But as an extra challenge to myself, in my entry #2 which used GPO (#10 also), I used edited versions of the original snare drum roll track as found in the MIDI file, adding the swell with velocity editing. I had three instances of the snare, each detuned enough to make a difference and to avoid phasing, the multiple tracks were shifted slightly so they didn't line up perfectly, and all of the hits were randomized, then hand tweaked so they weren't Too off, and not too perfect. Randy B.
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Twigman
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 19:50:52
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rbowser
That's not a very helpful roll sample - not being able to have it any length you want.
Randy B.
It probably could - I just lacked the necessary manipulation skillz.
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Attomik Punk
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 19:56:01
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Hey All,
I ran into to same snare roll problem (loop wan't long enough) with my snare sample from Miroslav.
Sounds like GPO has that covered. Seems like there aren't too many Miro fans out there?
Randy,
I liked what you did with the percussion instruments and all the dynamics in #2 and #10. Nice touch.
~Dan
#51 (Miroslav)
#66 (Sonik Synth2)
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Guitarpima
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 20:05:51
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I wanted to use Addictive Drums for the snare but as I had 38 Dim Pro running, it would crash the Sonar. I settled for SD for the snare. I can make AD do nice rolls but it would not work for SD. If I did not have to go camping, I would have created my own wav files to import. I just ran out of time.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 20:27:01
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Attomik Punk
Hey All,
I ran into to same snare roll problem (loop wan't long enough) with my snare sample from Miroslav.
Sounds like GPO has that covered. Seems like there aren't too many Miro fans out there?
Randy,
I liked what you did with the percussion instruments and all the dynamics in #2 and #10. Nice touch.
~Dan
#51 (Miroslav)
#66 (Sonik Synth2)
Daniel! Good to see you here taking part in the post-event discussion. Your entries 51 and 66 sounded really good to me. Nice work. Hmmmm, snare roll not long enough in Miroslav eh? Then it's not actually a loop - it's a single shot sample. GPO's is slick since it's a perfectly looped roll that would go on all day if the note that triggers it was that long. It's part of the basic Orchestral Percussion patch that has bass drum, large variety of cymbals. And the tympani is done really well too. There isn't a recorded roll, but each note in the possible tympani range has been sampled with left hand strikes, and right hand strikes. The two matching sets are two octaves apart, so you can play them live, emulating the way a tympanist uses his mallets. As long as dreaded quantization isn't used, you can pretty easily get realistic rolls with those. That's what I did in my two entries that used the GPO percussion patch. Thanks for the thumbs up on those Garritan entries I did. Drama and dynamics - that's what music like this is all about to me! Some excellent entries in this group I felt were still too stately and even. It's a miltaristic piece, and written for high drama, Star Trek - so I say "good taste" be damned when it comes to something like this! RB
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lorneyb2
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 20:35:28
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Twigman
I used the Dave Chick method of replacing the trills and rolls with single samples.
My headache came with the final snare roll (before and behind the timpani roll)...my sample just could not loop for long enough and as a result faded away just as the timpani roll came in - I could not for the life of me work out how to stretch it to sound for long enough!!
A trick that you can use when you have samples that just aren't long enough is the slice and dice method in the audio track. If for example you have a sample that only carries for 2 measures and you need it to last for 5 measures restart the note at the 3rd and 5th measure and then extend the 5th measure to its natural end (end of 6th for ex). After freezing the synth then go to the audio track and split at the start of the 1st note and the end of the release tail of the last note. Then split again at the start of the 3rd and 5th measure. Then pull back the end of the 1st segment to where there no longer is any fade, pull back the start of the 2nd segment to where you can no longer here the initiation phase of the note and then drag that serment to overlap the 1st and crossfade it. Now slide the last segment left so that the ending is at its intended place and trim ends/start of segments and crossfade. You may have to do a bit of fine tuning with a volume envelope for final smoothing but it can do the job of creating an extended sample length that sounds good. Thanks again to Randy and Bit for all the time and effort they put into this project. I have had a great time with this project. This has been an education on a number of fronts for me. Firstly, this was not the type of music I normally work on so it was a stretch to figure out how to recreate some of the aspects of a large in your face number and then trying to find some semblance of balance with all the instruments trying to find space in the arrangement. Secondly, being confined to 1 library I had to learn to use instruments I had not used before and not go to my tried and true favorite patch and settings. The third aspect is how differently we all listen to music and differences in our expectations for a piece of music. I had done an initial narrowing down to 19 (all of which the winning group was a part of) and then I had my 2 sons narrow that down to 5@(6 between the 3 of us) and then we chose 3 from that group. Only Michaels(34) was in the final grouping and Steve's(54) was picked by 1 of us in the final 5. From the discussions here I have seen a vast range of criteria individuals have used in arriving at a decision. Some people like Willie Nelson, some love U2 and I have even heard of 1 guy who likes Justyn Bieber( or whatever his name is) and my all time favorite Brook Benton( who man of you have probably never heard of) . We all have our own tastes and expectations. The conclusion I have arrived at is you have to go out and have fun making your music and playing your music. If your audience doesn't like it, it is not that there is anything wrong with your music, it is just the wrong audience. So for all of us that didn't make the elite 6 we congratulate those that did but we will not be deterred in our quest to make music. We will just keep in mind some people actually paid real money to see/hear Tiny Tim !!!
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 20:57:56
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Michael135
Hello everyone! I decided to make an account over here so I can partake in the discussion that's going on.
First, a HUGE thanks to Randy and Bitflipper for running this contest, and an even bigger thanks to Garry for providing such amazing prizes!
Thanks to all those who voted for my entry. I went into this contest being quite sure that I would get at the most 2 or 3 votes, not counting my own. I'm simply amazed that my entry was liked enough to get 2nd place!
I saw someone mention something about weird panning somewhere. I actually didn't do anything with panning. The instruments come with a "built in" panning, so they're automatically in their correct positions with out me having to do anything to them.
Also, if anyone has any comments/criticisms about my entry I would love to hear them. I'm very interested in why you did/didn't vote for my entry, as I'm always trying to improve my work.
Thanks again to all those who voted for me!
Edit: If you have any questions about how I made my entry, feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to explain stuff.
Michael, allow me to warmly welcome you to the Sonar Forum. This place is Happening!--Glad you joined in, congratulations on your win, and hope you get even more involved here - lots to learn from the folks in this neck of the cyber-woods! RB
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/02 21:12:19
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stevec
Ah... another thing I forgot about - my memory sucks. EQ-ing the reverb! I often do that as well, and I definitely did that here. If I recall correctly I removed both some highs and lows from the short reflection FX bus, and mostly highs from the long reflection FX bus. I think it helps to smooth things out.
---trying to work my way through this pile of excellent posts on this thread. I think that's very good advice, Steve. Roll off the low end of a reverb to avoid the mud that can Definitely pile up with a reverb plug-in, and roll off the highs to avoid that irritating hollow ring that happens so often with a reverb. Yeppers. RB
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