DeeringAmps


So I'm just curious how others felt while going through the entries, what were the major weaknesses?

For me it was the brass on the intro section, and this seemed consistent across all entries...

Tom

I guess you mean you felt the brass in the first few measures seemed generally weak to you, Tom?  In what way exactly?  I didn't have that same impression, so am interested in what you mean.

Randy B.

thomasabarnes


Well, it's done.

In my view the top winners are the 32 participants who got involved with this project before it became a contest with prizes, and those 1st 32 entries were the ones I considered for my votes.

In the entries after the first 32, there were some better sounding submissions, but I reckon they spent more careful time on their work than us who submitted submissions before the prizes were announced. :P

Nevertheless, congrats to all the winners!

I don't want to embarrass D Carson, entry 48, but I was very entertained listening to this entry, as the horns strke me as sounding funny as heck!!

Great job Randy and bitflipper on managing this project!!!!!!

Again, congratulations to all the winners!!!!

Hi, Thomas - First of all I want to thank you for your entry #27, done with TTS-1 and the Garritan Pocket Orchestra.  There's good work in there that I can tell wasn't done hastily.  Thanks again for signing up for this!

Second - I think that's a very curious thing, that you're saying you didn't consider any of the entries that came in after 32 - but with quite a few exclamation points, you're profusely congratulating the winners - 5 out of 6 which came in after the prizes were announced.---

Without wanting to be unduly critical of anyone who has said this on the various Shootout threads - I really don't understand why anyone would admit that they would have tried harder if they had known from the beginning there would be prizes. - Why wouldn't someone want to always present their best work possible, under any conditions?  I guess that's rather idealistic, but speaking for myself, I know that whenever I publicly present anything I've done, be it music, a performance (I'm an actor), a show (I'm a director) - or even something less widely distributed, I can't imagine presenting anything I've done without feeling I'm giving that thing my best effort.  Motivated by prizes?  By being paid? - those are little bonuses which sometimes come, but can't be counted on, and can't be the motivation for doing good work.

So, considering how many people have said something along those lines, and they are people I admire - I guess that's harsh to say, what I just said in the above paragraph.  But I truly don't get why announcing prizes in this contest should make the first 32 entries somehow more "pure" than the rest.  They were all entries in the same event - Guessing at why anyone decided to contribute an entry shouldn't be part of the equation of judging their work--!

In the end, it doesn't matter what motivates people to get something done - the proof is in the pudding.  But, I repeat, what I'm sure I'll never understand is how anyone could honestly say that they would have done Better work if they'd known some reward was in store.---

You did what you needed to do, Thomas, but I think it was unfair to exclude more then half the entries when you voted, and a very strange decision to make.

As to entry 48 - Isn't that wild?  I call that "The Star Trek Strip"---I mean, come on, - don't you expect alien women to come slinking out doing a strip in a Star Wars-style Cantina off on some exotic far flung planet? 

Randy B.

rbowser

Guitarpima


...keep in mind I could have won this thing if I had wanted to. So yes, a little upset but that's life.

Well I guess everyone should be relieved that you held back and didn't blow us all away with what you Really could have done, Robert.

C'mon, pal - You should be proud of the good work you did in your entry #45.  It doesn't do any good to lash out at someone who got more votes.  There's something everyone could learn by listening to the entries which garnered the popular votes.  Think about that.

AND I want to thank you for the much needed help you gave us behind the scenes when the first poll was discovered to be faulty.

You have a lot to be proud of, Robert.  It would be really good for yourself to focus on that.

Randy B.

I didn't think I was lashing out. A page or 2 back, he asked me what I hated about his entry. #30. His instruments were better than mine for sure. I just thought the mix was awful.
 
I may revisit it and improve upon mine. I've been thinking about your comments about placing things for recording and if I do revisit it, I am going to rearrange the seating.

bitflipper

do you anticipate making this an annual thing?

I think I can speak for Randy on this, too: NO!

By the way, Bit - you had that right. NOOOooooo thank you.

Randy B.

rich936

I did not take the time to roll off the bass on any of the tracks that don't really need the bottom end as well as not carving notches in the frequency for each instruments range. That much work, I felt, defeated the purpose of seeing what the sample library could do on its own. That would have been many more hours of fussing over a 1 minute demonstration. Guess I figured wrong! 

Hello again, Rich - I've been wanting to respond to this post of yours for hours.  I'm finally finding time here at the end of the day.

I know you weren't following all the discussion on the previous Shootout threads, but something Bitflipper and I were trying to make clear was that while we needed all of these entries to be recordings using the same notes, we were encouraging everyone to do as much as they know how to do to make their chosen sound source sound its best. 

We never suggested that any library/synth can sound perfect and ready-to-go straight out of the box.  When working with "computer music" - there are two central areas of work - massaging the MIDI data to the utmost of one's ability, and then the second half of the work is in the Audio realm, doing everything we know how to do to produce a good recording.  EQ, reverbs, compressors, limiters, stereo expanders - whatever we use to produce a recording. 

So the point here wasn't to do as Little as possible, but as Much as possible - to help our chosen software put its best foot forward.  But your entry was fine, a good GPO production as I said before.  It just would have benefited from a bit of sonic polish.  And naturally, people judging and voting went for entries which sounded the spiffiest. 

Thanks again for joining in on this.

Randy B.

rbowser

rich936

I did not take the time to roll off the bass on any of the tracks that don't really need the bottom end as well as not carving notches in the frequency for each instruments range. That much work, I felt, defeated the purpose of seeing what the sample library could do on its own. That would have been many more hours of fussing over a 1 minute demonstration. Guess I figured wrong! 

Hello again, Rich - I've been wanting to respond to this post of yours for hours.  I'm finally finding time here at the end of the day.

I know you weren't following all the discussion on the previous Shootout threads, but something Bitflipper and I were trying to make clear was that while we needed all of these entries to be recordings using the same notes, we were encouraging everyone to do as much as they know how to do to make their chosen sound source sound its best. 

We never suggested that any library/synth can sound perfect and ready-to-go straight out of the box.  When working with "computer music" - there are two central areas of work - massaging the MIDI data to the utmost of one's ability, and then the second half of the work is in the Audio realm, doing everything we know how to do to produce a good recording.  EQ, reverbs, compressors, limiters, stereo expanders - whatever we use to produce a recording. 

So the point here wasn't to do as Little as possible, but as Much as possible - to help our chosen software put its best foot forward.  But your entry was fine, a good GPO production as I said before.  It just would have benefited from a bit of sonic polish.  And naturally, people judging and voting went for entries which sounded the spiffiest. 

Thanks again for joining in on this.

Randy B.

This reminds me of discussion we had not too long ago on the soundsonline forums.  Someone was asking why his music didn't sound as good as the demos on the site.  He said it sounded like the makers of the tracks had used EQ/DAW tricks, and it wasn't fair.   Doug Rodgers came in, and pretty much said that as long as the makers of the demos use ONLY EastWest sounds, they can do just about what ever they want to it to get it to sound good.  After all, the demos aren't supposed to show what the average Joe can do with it straight out of the box, but rather, the full potential of the product in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing.  Granted, this guy seemed to be a bigger n00b than usual, as I've found EWQLSO to sound great straight out of the box...  I'll bet he's the same kind of person who will make the "instant" version of a food, then complain that it doesn't taste as good as the real thing.  lol

Motivated by prizes?  By being paid? - those are little bonuses which sometimes come, but can't be counted on, and can't be the motivation for doing good work.

So, considering how many people have said something along those lines, and they are people I admire - I guess that's harsh to say, what I just said in the above paragraph.  But I truly don't get why announcing prizes in this contest should make the first 32 entries somehow more "pure" than the rest.  They were all entries in the same event - Guessing at why anyone decided to contribute an entry shouldn't be part of the equation of judging their work--!

In the end, it doesn't matter what motivates people to get something done - the proof is in the pudding.  But, I repeat, what I'm sure I'll never understand is how anyone could honestly say that they would have done Better work if they'd known some reward was in store.---

You did what you needed to do, Thomas, but I think it was unfair to exclude more then half the entries when you voted, and a very strange decision to make.

 
OK Randy, I'll reply to you.
 
I don't think all the entries that came in came because of the announcement of prises, but I'm inclined to think a mojority of them did! And I didn't vote for any of them because my thought on the matter is they likely didn't submit entries until they heard about they can win something, and I may be only assuming, but the thought pisses me off. My thinking is they didn't think enough of us forum members to show off ther libraries until they heard of the prizes.
 
You think that's unfair of me, and to some that may be the case, but some of us who submitted mp3 files before the announcement of prises think it may be unfair that we were not allowed to resubmit an entry. Howevr, bittflipper and you were running this show, so you did what you think is best. In exercising my power to vote, I did what I think is best.  
 
And that brings me to answer your question of why would a person not submit an entry with their best work from the start. Well, things can happen, man. For one, it wasn't clear to me what was the intended tempo for the midi file, when I submitted my entry. I discovered, the next day, what is supposed to be the tempo to use in a post you made, through reading in one of the Shootout related threads, after I submitted my enty.
 
Now, I read Susan say she immediately eliminated one entry because the tempo was too fast, so it should be seen that the tempo of an entry played a role in casting a vote. My entry was done at a tempo of 120, so it was too fast. I had a problem with Dim pro not working after I added so many instances when I was using the Cakewalk Project with the midi file included, so I had to import the midi file to a new project in order to add multiple instances of Dim Pro without later added instances of Dim Pro refusing to work. My point is that I didn't know what tempo to use, so I went with the default 120, which was too fast, and that reflected as a descrepancy in the entry I submitted. Therefore, I favored a re-submission.
 
Another thing is that I used the TTS-1 for the percussion parts, and one of the parts, by default, was assigned to a percussion peice that sounded like a whistle and a grinding sound in it. I didn't hear that piece in any of the other entries. I was trying to keep the midi files as is, so when I assigned the percussive track to the TTS-1, I didn't change any of the sounds that were loaded by default, including that whisle grinding sound. You all were stressing, leave the MIDI file unaltered. So I did. I thought these were the sounds everyone should have had, since I didn't change any of the sounds that loaded by default. But, again, no one else had that sound in their entry. Hence, I favored to resubmit my entry, cause apparently, I didn't have what everybody else had, as far as percussion sounds.
 
So the bottom line, Randy, is that I voted as I saw best, just as you and bitflipper ran the shootout , as you saw best. We can all have different points of view, but let us agree to disagree, if we have to, and still get along with each other?
 
Cya around. :)

Galandar


Wow!  The last time I looked here a couple of days ago, there were 40+ comments.  It is going to take me days to catch up, but I have learned almost as much scanning through the the discussion posts as I did working on my entry.  I know that there have been some that put more weight on the earlier entries before the prize announcement, but in my case, I didn't even know there was a contest untill the Saturday morning before the Sunday deadline.  It was tricky (I had to squeeze a wedding and reception in as well) but I gave it my best shot, and about 3 gallons of coffee Saturday night.  I paid most attention to the brass, and having committed to using GPO (I had just bought it recently and hadn't used it in a project yet) Randy knows I've been pulling my hair out trying to get the attacks right.  Never happened, but I learned a lot about velocity and CC1 in GPO.  But as a result I didn't pay nearly enough attention to the strings or the piano.  And since confession is good for the soul, I over-reverbed my entry, but the fact is, I like it!  Thanks again all.  It was huge fun !

Hi, Marv!  I think it's great that you threw yourself into this at the last minute, and got your entry done in one day--managing to squeeze in a wedding and reception at the same time!  Whew!

You've made a great start with GPO.  Keep asking those questions at the Garritan Forum, and here, and keep working with the program.  You love it already - wait until you're a GPO master!

Randy B.

rbowser

Guitarpima


...keep in mind I could have won this thing if I had wanted to....I didn't think I was lashing out...I just thought the mix was awful.

Ooookay then. 

Randy B.

If your going to quote me, don't manipulate my words to fit your frame of mind.

chckn8r1

Guitarpima

That's what always happens with contests. 

I'd beg to differ.  I'd also like to point out that more than half of the entries here were either started or finished and submitted (yours truly) BEFORE this became a contest.  Randy and Dave were conducting a fantastic experiment that seemed to be getting a lot of interest even without the "carrot" of the prizes. 

I would never have thought you would win though. While your instruments sounded really good, (imo) the blend was not near as good as others and there was far too much reverb.

 
If you doubt my sincerity, keep in mind I could have won this thing if I had wanted to. So yes, a little upset but that's life.

Personally, I would have enjoyed seeing it remain an experiment and have a constructive discussion and discourse about the entries rather than have comments that devolve into bordering on childish schoolyard bravado.  They don't seem like it on first read, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt that comments are made with some sort of good intentions.

As per your first part of the quote, what planet do you live  on?
 
As for the second part, I am in complete agreement. I think a group of judges would have been more apropriate for a contest with prizes. It takes all the nonsense away.
 
I would like you to take away a lot of the reverb and post a link to it. It would be nice to see if the reverb ruined your mix. A lot of the melody was buried in with the harmony. imo.

Guitarpima

If your going to quote me, don't manipulate my words to fit your frame of mind.

Robert, your sour grapes posts are an embarrassment.  I don't need to manipulate your words because what you're saying is out here for everyone to see.  You are an extremely un-sportsman-like sore loser, and your slams against the winning entry are ridiculous.  I quoted part of what you've said hoping you'd get the connection between "lashing out" and describing Chick's mix as "awful."  Own up to what you're saying.  It's silly to **** and moan on the thread and then pretend you haven't been doing just that.

Chick asked you to say what Specifically you didn't care for in his recording.  It was a civil question, now you could display a little intelligence in answering him if you want to.  But it's plain dumb to keep repeating the same thing over and over about his entry.

You really wanted to win, you're bitter that you didn't--We Get it! - Now if you'd wrap your head around the fact that the top entries received the most popular vote - then you'd get it that there are probably things to learn from those entries - things that made people think those were the best sounding recordings.

Randy B.

Randy and Dave, great job!

And for all the entrants, admiration for the time and effort that you put into it. And of course, to the winners, congratulations. I think the prizes were a great addition to the shootout. If they provided motivation for more entrants and effort, that's a good thing. Not to mention a great compliment to this forum and to Dave and Randy for their effort. The slightly late offer of prizes would only be unfortunate to those who might have thought they did not have a chance to resubmit.

From the outset of the original shootout proposal, it seemed quite clear to me that besides the quality of the synth & sounds, there would be a major impact on quality coming from the skill, effort, and taste of the contestants. Those last three qualities were not strongly highlighted as goals in the shootout, but how could there possibly be a set of rules to eliminate them, and then how would such rules possibly show the ultimate quality of the sounds??? Specifying the rules for editing the midi file required a delicate touch to allow the sounds to be best applied to the composition without allowing modifications to the composition to unfairly influence the voting.

For those cases of multiple submissions, they reflected mainly more examples of effort, skill, and taste, not to mention sound palette, and so seem entirely legitimate. How someone would compare it to a lottery seems goofy. The only "chance" effect on the outcome was in the tastes of the voters.

And that brings me to offer another compliment: to the voters. That was a lot of thoughtful listening to make it through all those entries. Oh, and another compliment to Dave and Randy for the extra effort to keep the voting fair.

Bill B

@ person who wanted to hear Garritan Big Band. 
 
I just started a course on big band arranging at Pasadena City College.  The first assignment was to write something for four saxophones (two altos, two tenors).  The drums are EZDrummer Jazz and the bass is from Dimension Pro.  I used some moderate EQ and reverb on the saxophones and I opened up the panning from the default position.
 
This isn't going to show off what GBB can do, but it'll give you an idea of how it sounds in the hands of a novice.
 
http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/GBB_Satin_Doll.mp3

 
Thanks jsaras, that was an interesting and unique sound on the saxs.  I've always loved big jazz bands, your persuit endever at Pasadena City College sounds exciteing.

Colin, my notes are not extensive... only have them for things I found really glaring.  As for your entry #53, I thought it was fourth best.  It was very tough for me to separate out my four favorites.  Your entry was done very well.

 
For what it's worth I voted for #53 too.

Hi, Tod!  Thanks for the info on SIPS.  I suppose that only works with the full Kontakt, and not KP2?

 
Yes Randy, Big Bob started out with it in Kontact 2.
 

I sent you an email last night - Reply to that so I can officially put you down for the Garritan Library you want.  SOunds like you'll go for JABB - That's a great collection.

 
Okay, got it and will reply as soon as possible.  I'm still trying to decide.  I've already got a pretty good collection of orchestra samples and not knowing much about the World Library it kind of narrows it down.  I notice there's a JABB update, heh heh I wonder if that might be included...
 

I'll be interested to hear any JABB users' experiences and creations, as that one is high on my own wishlist. I love using sax, but it's probably the most difficult sample-based instrument to employ realistically.
 
I'm also intrigued by the new World library Garritan's going to be releasing soon. I don't need any more guiros, djembes or cajons, but exotic stringed instruments are always fun so I'm hoping the new lib has some of that.

 
Me too bitflipper.  I've always liked the sax too, actually played one on stage for a while many many years ago but nothing fancy.  I don't think there will ever be a library that can emulate a truly good jazz sax player but it will be interesting to see just what JABB can do.
 
I used midi to put together some big band stuff several years back, long long before any softsynths and samples appeared when all I had was some outboard midi gear.  Heh heh, maybe now I can revisit those old midi files if I can find them..??
Once again thanyou Randy and bitflipper.  I think you did a marvelous job with this.  It was a great idea even without the contest. 
 
T.S.

I replied to your email Randy. 

rbowser

Guitarpima

If your going to quote me, don't manipulate my words to fit your frame of mind.

Robert, your sour grapes posts are an embarrassment.  I don't need to manipulate your words because what you're saying is out here for everyone to see.  You are an extremely un-sportsman-like sore loser, and your slams against the winning entry are ridiculous.  I quoted part of what you've said hoping you'd get the connection between "lashing out" and describing Chick's mix as "awful."  Own up to what you're saying.  It's silly to **** and moan on the thread and then pretend you haven't been doing just that.

Chick asked you to say what Specifically you didn't care for in his recording.  It was a civil question, now you could display a little intelligence in answering him if you want to.  But it's plain dumb to keep repeating the same thing over and over about his entry.

You really wanted to win, you're bitter that you didn't--We Get it! - Now if you'd wrap your head around the fact that the top entries received the most popular vote - then you'd get it that there are probably things to learn from those entries - things that made people think those were the best sounding recordings.

Randy B.

Not bitter at all. That's your impression for whatever reason. Just because I stated my opinion does not make me bitter. A little disappointed? Yes. Who wouldn't be? That's life! I was over it long ago. About an 5 or 10 minutes after I found out I did not place. Your just bent on trying to make me a sore loser for being honest with my opinion.
 
That's the real deal though, isn't it? You think because I said what I did it makes your hard work seem less worthwhile. Why else would you be saying these things about me? I don't, for one second, take lightly the effort you have put into this. 
[So I have said what I said. I am just being honest. Is my entry any better? #45 probably not. Obviously nobody thought mine was worth voting for. Only you and Dave know. I'm not surprised by your reaction though. How can my opinions matter when they don't meet your qualifications?
 
I for one would like to see the voting results. Even if I got the least. IMO, it's insulting not to.