ORIGINAL: shea
Hi Ron
I hope i dont start a war here but your obviously not able to fix this problem since your talking about sonar been efficient when nobody else is
The problem is gaps that need to be fixed now. sonar1 gaps sonar 2 gaps sonar3 gaps sonar4 gaps. how many more sonar versions do we get before its fixed. Improvements is not acceptable period

Cakewalk, in my experience, has had a remarkable history of listening to their users' suggestions, complaints, and requests, and being responsive in an efficient and timely fashion. I have only gone to the Feature Request page or contacted Tech Support a few times in the past several years, because every time I've had a real issue or desperately needed new functionality, the next version of SONAR addressed the need before I could even get to it. The glaring exception to this was the Quantize MFX bug in SONAR 3, but it was indeed fixed in SONAR 4.

My point is, truly gapless realtime MIDI editing seems to be popping up more and more as a point of interest and contention on this forum, now that other issues have already been addressed and ironed out. I would be genuinely surprised if this type of functionality doesn't move up fairly high on the list when they develop SONAR 5. I don't have much hope for it being addressed in a patch to S4, because it strikes me as more of an additional feature than a bug fix, and more than one Cakewalk representative has already stated on this forum that extra features will not be part of the patches - just fixes.

I haven't used Cubase or Nuendo in a long time, but when I occasionally check out their user forums, it seems to me that I notice many more frustrated users venting about lingering bugs and other issues than I see on the SONAR forum. I think perhaps some of the frustration here is that Cakewalk, in typical corporate fashion, is trying not to "show their hand" too much - maybe they're already taking gapless MIDI editing seriously, but comments like the one Ron made (that shea was responding to) come across as defensive instead of helpful.

If Ron (and the rest of Cakewalk) is listening, I'd like to suggest that the audio portions of SONAR are quite robust and satisfying to many users now. Perhaps it's time to bring gapless realtime MIDI editing up to that same level - clearly there's quite a lot of discussion about it. Like a lot of other users, I have learned to work around the limitations, but I can just imagine what the uninterrupted creative flow would be like if we *didn't* have to lose the audio or MIDI (or have MIDI notes be doubled) while editing during playback.

Hi RT


Very well spoken and to the point.
Perhaps cake might pay attention to your post and end this gap issue once and for all, and for the better.


shea

I hope i dont start a war here but your obviously not able to fix this problem since your talking about sonar been efficient when nobody else is

That really motivates me and team. Thanks a lot.

Gapping is a top priority for us right now. Myself and others are reading these threads and we take it to heart. We're going to address this issue.

In the mean time, thank you for your kind words of support, shea.

Is the expectation that gapless equals realtime? if so, listen
closely to some of the products cited as gapless.
The only systems i've seen so far that are both gapless and realtime
are the PT HD192s... and we're talking serious hardware acceleration and
beaucoup bucks.

jeff

ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]
It's all related, actually. The "engine" in SONAR encompasses audio, hardware MIDI, MIDI via soft-synths and groove clips. Let's not forget external sync. Gapless means no kind of data should gap, not just audio. It's a tricky bit of work.

Understood. It's definitely reassuring (at least to me, and I would hope to others here as well) to know that it's on the agenda.

Not to mention such a quick response from the Ronster. Try getting that from Steinberg. Ha!

Hi Ron
At the end of the day this is what we want to hear
Perhaps i havent been very supportive in the past but with very good reason. With your little sarcasim aside and theres nothing wrong with that, i along with others simply want a sonar that we can realy brag about, .


shea

ORIGINAL: Brando

With your little sarcasim aside

He was really only being 20-40% sarcastic.

hee!

Kind regards

Dave Rich

Gapping is a top priority for us right now. Myself and others are reading these threads and we take it to heart. We're going to address this issue.

good to hear..

3 remarks:

1. What i might add is that even with "recalc .." turned off in aud.ini
there are gaps while inserting any kind of dx/vst.
I thought the recalculation of these added fx would be neglected when this
command is inserted in aud.ini.

2. Sometimes there are only short gaps while editing (dragging clips,
notes, trimming), but then the project gets out of time and some MIDI-tracks
wont be played back. "Stop-Start" for right playback is required. Whats the reason?

3. Especially long gaps when setting loops, changing loop points and moving
timeline while playback.
Do these depend on PDC? There are no new fx inserted.

do/did traditional analogue engineers hot swap stuff in the signal path?

ORIGINAL: pwal

do/did traditional analogue engineers hot swap stuff in the signal path?

Come on guys, this is 2005, not 1955 or even 1985 If other major competing apps, like Samplitude 8, Nuendo 3, SX3 and the like can have fully functioning PDC mechanisms, then why not Cakewalk's flagship app. I can accept a little gap when inserting a PDC type plugin, that is one thing. To accept gapping when simply moving or extending (slip editing) an audio clip, during playback or your project getting out of sync (or dropping out altogether) when you are simply project looping with PDC plugins (UAD-1), is quite another.

ORIGINAL: prog_head
If you turn off a UAD plug while it is playing the PDC does not recalculate and all audio is thrown off.

Well, I don't really know any app that will do that on the fly, even SONAR loses sync on tracks when I have UAD-1 plugins on them and I turn them off. I would not expect Samplitude to be any different in that regard. I am talking more specifically about the project looping, which is a SONAR PDC specific issue. You can project loop all day long with UAD-1 plugins, in Samplitude 7, with nary a glitch. The same goes for Nuendo 2, ACID Pro 5 and Vegas 5. You can also slip edit, move audio clips around, create fades, etc, during playback totally gapless. I do this same type of audio editing, during playback, in SONAR 4.02 and it is gap city. Sometimes these gaps last for a few seconds or more, as it re-calulates the PDC. Certainly not the "Let Go and Flow" that I would like to see during playback. I think Cakewalk can do a whole lot better!

I will enjoy a more gapless engine but overall, Sonar is the most natural tool I have used (this does not include any Steinberg software).

Yes, SONAR is the most natural, comprehensive and intuitive tool for me too, I just wish the PDC mechanism was as natural and seamless.

Well, I don't really know any app that will do that on the fly, even SONAR loses sync on tracks when I have UAD-1 plugins on them and I turn them off. I would not expect Samplitude to be any different in that regard. I am talking more specifically about the project looping, which is a SONAR PDC specific issue. You can project loop all day long with UAD-1 plugins, in Samplitude 7, with nary a glitch. The same goes for Nuendo 2, ACID Pro 5 and Vegas 5. You can also slip edit, move audio clips around, create fades, etc, during playback totally gapless. I do this same type of audio editing, during playback, in SONAR 4.02 and it is gap city. Sometimes these gaps last for a few seconds or more, as it re-calulates the PDC. Certainly not the "Let Go and Flow" that I would like to see during playback. I think Cakewalk can do a whole lot better!

Thanks Bill - its been a toooooo long time like that and now hopefully it is going to be fixed. lets hope it. ron?

Now you can't ask for more than that!

Honesty from a software develloper

Very rare indeed!!

ORIGINAL: Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]

You must not have heard their advertizements for the last 3 years.
I read his explination.
I still contend that they've been using misleading adverts.
It's my point of view. You don't have to agree.

We had some copy on our web site for about a week that said gapless. We took that claim away because it wasn't true, and took alot of flak for it back then. We've never used the term "gapless" to describe any of products, nor will we ever do so again.

The fact is that any product will gap if you push it hard enough. Customers have said great things about P5 v 2 (non)-gapping behavior. But we will never call P5 gapless because of the SONAR 3 incident.

The same is true for SONAR 4.0.3 or for SONAR 5. We made the mistake once, won't do it again.

I quite like the gaps - gives you a little bit of time to think to yourself "is that edit *really* necessary"

LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOLLLLLL

reminds me of a friend of mine who uses no keyboard shortcuts - the longer editing time with the mouse - he says - gives him time to think. :-)