ken_earl2000
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/17 20:06:37
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"Sorry to hear that the tools in this thread aren't working out on your systems."
I think these forums are among the best tools available for DAW set ups (that I have used) any where and eventually I probably could get the thing to work (maybe). A twin EIDE drive set up will still be a major upgrade from my old single HD 900mhz t-bird. In 3 more years I'll probably have another computer anyway.
Any way thanks to all that helped and I am going to give CAKEWALK Tech support a go Monday and if they help me do it then I'm going to return the SATA and buy a EIDE (but I really wanted the added performance of the SATA, 'c'est la vie')
There is a tremendous amount of work in these threads (especially losguy) that should be commended. and I have learned a ton which is great, thank you.
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Thud
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/18 09:42:51
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First post!
There's really no performance advantage to SATA unless you get a 10,000rpm Raptor drive.
Aside from that, the only advantages that SATA offers are tiny cables and hot swap functionality.
I had some popping issues which I determined to be a background process running-- I was downloading the half-life 2 preload files via Valve's Steam network while playing back audio from the same drive I was downloading to. (Note to self: don't do that)
I have a first-generation SATA motherboard, but I think the Intel chipsets are pretty solid (Asus P4PE).
It's amazing my system works as a DAW at all because I'm doing everything you shouldn't do to an audio workstation. I have a 1.8GHz P4 chip overclocked to 2.4GHz and the system is mainly tweaked for gaming, and 3 soundcards in the box. Well, two, since the onboard audio is disabled in BIOS. But I still have an SB Audigy that I use for soundfonts and gaming, while my main audio interface is an Echo Mia. They work together suprisingly well.
Hopefully the nForce3 chipsets won't have the same issues, since I'm upgrading to an Athlon 64 system soon. The only issues I'm having with my current system involve the evil Pace Interlok drivers used by my Antares plugins, which causes Sonar to crash every time I close it after using one of the plugins. Oh well, you can't have everything.
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BeachGuitar
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/18 10:16:03
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I beg to differ with you on the speed. ATA-133 IDE although rated at 133 cannot seem to achieve it. Serial ATA is rated at 150 and does it fact achieve that. I was absolutely astonished at the difference in speed when I changed from a Maxtor IDE ATA 133 w 8 meg buffer to a Maxtor Serial ATA. I have since installed a WD Raptor 10,000 rpm drive and am enjoying the improved performance over the Maxtor Serial ATA. The faster Raptor cuts your access times almost in half.
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Thud
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/18 10:50:49
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There's virtually no performance difference between a SATA and EIDE drive of the same model. Naturally, if you replace an older IDE drive with a newer SATA drive, it will be faster, simply because the drive is newer (and has a higher data density on the platters, and therefore can transfer data at a higher rate). Even the Raptor doesn't come close to the 150MB/s ceiling for SATA when doing sustained transfers.
Spinning the platters faster is the most effective way to make a drive faster, that's why the the Raptors are so fast.
Newer SATA drives do support native command queueing, which can improve performance if multiple applications are trying to use the drive at once, which is something that high-end SCSI drives have been doing for a while. However, you have to have a SATA controller that supports it, and right now I don't know of any built-in motherboard controllers that do.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/18 11:55:35
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ORIGINAL: Thud
First post! Hi Thud! Hey, what was that noise? ;-) Welcome to the thread and to the awesome SONAR forum! There's really no performance advantage to SATA unless you get a 10,000rpm Raptor drive. Aside from that, the only advantages that SATA offers are tiny cables and hot swap functionality. True, and these were interesting reasons for me at the time. Add to that, however, that it frees up IDE "slots" so that I can expand to multiple CD/DVD drives without fussing about HDD slowdowns. I have a first-generation SATA motherboard, but I think the Intel chipsets are pretty solid (Asus P4PE). ... Hopefully the nForce3 chipsets won't have the same issues, since I'm upgrading to an Athlon 64 system soon. That's what next on my horizon as well. When I get there, it doesn't mean that I'll stop watching this thread, though (as long as Cakewalk doesn't mind). ;-) The only issues I'm having with my current system involve the evil Pace Interlok drivers used by my Antares plugins, which causes Sonar to crash every time I close it after using one of the plugins. Oh well, you can't have everything. OT, but yes, absolutely, Pace Interlok is a bad idea and I applaud Cakewalk for taking the high road like they have up to now. I even feel that Challenge/Response codes are an intrusion, since I'm constantly wondering in the back of my mind, every time that I use that product, what I will do (that is honest) if those companies ever go belly-up. I feel that if that ever came to pass that it would be their moral responsibility to provide permanent unlock keys or a Response code generator utility to their paying customers. My $0.02 worth. OK, (/OT)
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Thud
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/18 13:07:47
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OT, but yes, absolutely, Pace Interlok is a bad idea and I applaud Cakewalk for taking the high road like they have up to now. I even feel that Challenge/Response codes are an intrusion, since I'm constantly wondering in the back of my mind, every time that I use that product, what I will do (that is honest) if those companies ever go belly-up. I feel that if that ever came to pass that it would be their moral responsibility to provide permanent unlock keys or a Response code generator utility to their paying customers. My $0.02 worth. OK, (/OT)
I was thinking the exact same thing the last time I upgraded the hard drive in my system, and then discovered that I had to EMAIL Antares to get a new response phrase. Just for swapping a hard drive. I couldn't use my plugins for 4 days while I waited for a reply. What if Antares didn't exist anymore? Gadzooks! Fortunately, they have realized that Interlok is more trouble than it's worth. I got an email from Antares saying that the Pace Interlok victims will soon be able to upgrade their Antares plugins to use the USB-dongle based iLok system instead. 80% less annoying that way.
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jpinard
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 03:44:52
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Well, this is a great, great thread! I registered here just to post in this thread  I don't have any of these music problems, but I do have a crackling/popping issue in just one title: Rome Total War (I use Creative Labs Audigy 2 - ZS) This game uses EAX 3 HD, and running in this mode is a huge load for any system. My system is excpetionally fast and clean, but this issue is driving me nuts - especially since it's only in one title. Previously I'd believed it was latency issues between just sound/video, but I'd never though about the fact I have 2 SATA drives on my VIA chipset. At the end of this post you'll see my system specs, but here's my questions: 1. I have the choice between PROMISE chipset and VIA Internal SATA. Is it true Promise is still faster, even on my motherboard? Asus A8V Deluxe. 2. Why are you setting SATA latencies lower instead of higher? 3, I'm wondering how Roger Lonsberry "rogerlons" tested his cpu utilization between the Promise and Via Controllers? Thanks! System specs * OS: Win XP Home SP2 * Directx 9.0c * Processor: AMD FX-53 * Motherboard: Asus A8V Deluxe rev1.2 * Bios Rev: Version 1007 * VIA 4-in-1 Version 4.51 * VIA SATA Raid version 2.20D * Memory: 1 Gig Kingston 3500 (433MHz) * Video Card: ATI Radeon X800 XT Platinum Cat 4.9 * Sound Card: SB Audigy 2 ZS (latest non-beta drivers) * Pioneer DVD-RW Drive * Samsung SATA 120 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST316002 3AS - Drive C) * Seagate SATA 160 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST3160023A - Drive D) * Seagate ATA-133 160 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST3160023A - Drive E) * Logitech MX510 Gaming Mouse * Sound settings utilizing 5.1 speakers and EAX 3 * Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 Surround System * Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2060u - 22â€
< Message edited by jpinard -- 10/19/2004 3:58:04 AM >
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 14:14:56
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ORIGINAL: Thud
First post!
There's really no performance advantage to SATA unless you get a 10,000rpm Raptor drive.
Aside from that, the only advantages that SATA offers are tiny cables and hot swap functionality.
I had some popping issues which I determined to be a background process running-- I was downloading the half-life 2 preload files via Valve's Steam network while playing back audio from the same drive I was downloading to. (Note to self: don't do that)
I have a first-generation SATA motherboard, but I think the Intel chipsets are pretty solid (Asus P4PE).
It's amazing my system works as a DAW at all because I'm doing everything you shouldn't do to an audio workstation. I have a 1.8GHz P4 chip overclocked to 2.4GHz and the system is mainly tweaked for gaming, and 3 soundcards in the box. Well, two, since the onboard audio is disabled in BIOS. But I still have an SB Audigy that I use for soundfonts and gaming, while my main audio interface is an Echo Mia. They work together suprisingly well.
Hopefully the nForce3 chipsets won't have the same issues, since I'm upgrading to an Athlon 64 system soon. The only issues I'm having with my current system involve the evil Pace Interlok drivers used by my Antares plugins, which causes Sonar to crash every time I close it after using one of the plugins. Oh well, you can't have everything.
There may not be a performance improvement per-se...it depends upon your drive(s) BUT using the SATA in conjunction with your IDE offers multiple controller paths and may speed up i/o ...especially if you configure your system to take advantage of the controller paths.
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 14:16:23
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ORIGINAL: jpinard
Well, this is a great, great thread! I registered here just to post in this thread I don't have any of these music problems, but I do have a crackling/popping issue in just one title: Rome Total War (I use Creative Labs Audigy 2 - ZS)
This game uses EAX 3 HD, and running in this mode is a huge load for any system. My system is excpetionally fast and clean, but this issue is driving me nuts - especially since it's only in one title. Previously I'd believed it was latency issues between just sound/video, but I'd never though about the fact I have 2 SATA drives on my VIA chipset. At the end of this post you'll see my system specs, but here's my questions:
1. I have the choice between PROMISE chipset and VIA Internal SATA. Is it true Promise is still faster, even on my motherboard? Asus A8V Deluxe.
2. Why are you setting SATA latencies lower instead of higher?
3, I'm wondering how Roger Lonsberry "rogerlons" tested his cpu utilization between the Promise and Via Controllers?
Thanks!
System specs
* OS: Win XP Home SP2
* Directx 9.0c
* Processor: AMD FX-53
* Motherboard: Asus A8V Deluxe rev1.2
* Bios Rev: Version 1007
* VIA 4-in-1 Version 4.51
* VIA SATA Raid version 2.20D
* Memory: 1 Gig Kingston 3500 (433MHz)
* Video Card: ATI Radeon X800 XT Platinum Cat 4.9
* Sound Card: SB Audigy 2 ZS (latest non-beta drivers)
* Pioneer DVD-RW Drive
* Samsung SATA 120 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST316002 3AS - Drive C)
* Seagate SATA 160 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST3160023A - Drive D)
* Seagate ATA-133 160 Gig, 7200 rpm, (Model ST3160023A - Drive E)
* Logitech MX510 Gaming Mouse
* Sound settings utilizing 5.1 speakers and EAX 3
* Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 Surround System
* Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2060u - 22â€
yet another example of where a forum registration process would come in handy.
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daverich
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 15:12:51
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ORIGINAL: Thud
Hopefully the nForce3 chipsets won't have the same issues, since I'm upgrading to an Athlon 64 system soon.
Well it's working lovely here :) - didn't even know there *was* a SATA issue ;) Kind regards Dave Rich.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 16:00:58
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ORIGINAL: jpinard
1. I have the choice between PROMISE chipset and VIA Internal SATA. Is it true Promise is still faster, even on my motherboard? Asus A8V Deluxe. Depends on how VIA implented their SATA controller. The Promise controller could possibly result in lower CPU usage than the VIA controller, but testing your system for throughput and CPU usage is where you'll get the truth. The VIA chipset SATA controller is much less likely to give you audio glitches, however. 2. Why are you setting SATA latencies lower instead of higher? Because it was occupying the PCI bus too long per IRQ assertion. The extra time on the bus was not needed for audio streaming, but it was blocking the audio card from access to the bus when it needed it. 3. I'm wondering how Roger Lonsberry "rogerlons" tested his cpu utilization between the Promise and Via Controllers? Yes, I'd also like to know the results of this test.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/19 16:13:43
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ORIGINAL: daverich
Well it's working lovely here :) - didn't even know there *was* a SATA issue ;)
Cheeky devil.
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ken_earl2000
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/20 07:06:19
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I have had issues with my SATA drive and am happy to report that it is finally working fine. I did all the other stuff previously mentioned in this post. Used WDM drivers not ASIO (they hardley work at all) and bumped up the cache in SONAR3 about 3/4 to max (forget the setting, sorry) I actually used the windows drivers (during the fresh install) for the SATA drive and not the program supplied w/ the 'Cuda that installs the drivers. I also went through the list... Display properties, Backround Services enabled, Virtual Memory, went through Admin Tools Services (be careful with this one), DMA if avail (not PIO). Then Switched from SATA 1 to SATA 2 (i swear I tried this) connection on the MB, disabled read/write caching in SONAR and started using ASIO again (buffer's kinda high, but it is so stable I am sure I could drop it) and started enabling things I needed one at a time such as the 2 USB ports for the MIDI keyboard and Printer. It is still stable and sounds great. I do have a couple of questions/recomendations...... T -the Hard Disk meter still fluctuates from 0-5% is this a normal occurance? -I know that the Audio Data folder should go on the SATA drive and OS on the EIDE drive but where is the best locale for all the loops and Samples and V-Sampler libraries and Sound fonts etc, etc. I currently have the SATA logically partitioned in two (80gb/80gb) Audio data on one partition and Loops etc on the other is this the best way?
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/20 15:03:50
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ORIGINAL: jpinard
3, I'm wondering how Roger Lonsberry "rogerlons" tested his cpu utilization between the Promise and Via Controllers?
Sorry for the delay in response, but I've been on the road... I did my initial testing with some becnhmark tool or another. Don't remember exactly which one (and I long ago uninstalled it from my system), but I don't suppose it's that important. After that, it was just as issue of setting up the RAID 0 array twice (once on each controller) and testing. Of course, I chose poorly and tested the Promise controller first, meaning I had to create the array three times (which of course meant reformatting a 240GB disk set three times)... Took all day, but it was worth it. And the other controller wasn't Via, it was Intel. ICH5R Southbridge to be exact. The only reason I can think of for the performance difference is that the Southbridge RAID implementation is software, while the other is hardware. I've seen that kind of difference happen on servers all the time, but I was surprised at how obvious it was on a single-CPU XP box. BTW losguy, I wasn't being secretive about the MOBO (I had posted it earlier, I think). Anyway, it's the ASUS P4C800E Deluxe. Fantastic board, and have built two (nearly identical) studio machines on this platform and they're both fantastically stable. Side note: The second uses an ATI video card, so we had to use two configurations to make SONAR run correctly, but that's an ATI driver issue that's well known in these parts. Wasn't my idea but it works okay anyway, as long as you don't try to run the TV tuner with SONAR... In any case, given a choice of using RAID or not I'd always choose to use it. One thing I hadn't mentioned before was that I also performance tested against a single SATA drive (in non-RAID, obviously). There was a significant difference in performance between the two - I don't remember exact numbers but it was nearly (but not quite) double the throughput. I have to believe that's a good thing, no matter whether it chews up a little extra CPU or not! Now get outa here and go make some music! Cheers, -Roger
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/20 15:05:51
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Well it's working lovely here :) - didn't even know there *was* a SATA issue ;)
Kind regards
Dave Rich.
I'm with Dave on this one. If it wasn't for this thread, I'd never have known either. 
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/20 18:46:26
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ORIGINAL: ken_earl2000
I have had issues with my SATA drive and am happy to report that it is finally working fine. That's great, ken! -the Hard Disk meter still fluctuates from 0-5% is this a normal occurance? All the time, no. Tracking audio, yes. The more tracks you have, the higher the peak usage. -I know that the Audio Data folder should go on the SATA drive and OS on the EIDE drive but where is the best locale for all the loops and Samples and V-Sampler libraries and Sound fonts etc, etc. I currently have the SATA logically partitioned in two (80gb/80gb) Audio data on one partition and Loops etc on the other is this the best way? This is a matter of debate and individual usage and preference. Creating a partition does not increase overall performance, but it can result in higher performance in one partition at the expense of the other. The best way is to use separate hard drives for each type of audio data that you expect to be streaming simultaneously. It matters most if you will be tracking audio while streaming samples from disk. If you aren't, and you are simply loading your samples into RAM when your project loads, then you can practically put the sample files anywhere that you like. I personally don't like extra partitions unless they are for an absolute purpose, such as multi-boot OS configurations. Otherwise, I'd rather just add a drive.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/20 19:05:09
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
Sorry for the delay in response, but I've been on the road... So that's you excuse... ;-D BTW losguy, I wasn't being secretive about the MOBO (I had posted it earlier, I think). Oh yes you were, admit it! ;-D Anyway, it's the ASUS P4C800E Deluxe. Fantastic board, and have built two (nearly identical) studio machines on this platform and they're both fantastically stable. Side note: The second uses an ATI video card, so we had to use two configurations to make SONAR run correctly, but that's an ATI driver issue that's well known in these parts. Wasn't my idea but it works okay anyway, as long as you don't try to run the TV tuner with SONAR... Thanks for the info. In any case, given a choice of using RAID or not I'd always choose to use it. One thing I hadn't mentioned before was that I also performance tested against a single SATA drive (in non-RAID, obviously). There was a significant difference in performance between the two - I don't remember exact numbers but it was nearly (but not quite) double the throughput. I have to believe that's a good thing, no matter whether it chews up a little extra CPU or not! This is precisely the sort of numbers that I am looking for, a relative CPU usage and Disk usage for various SATA controllers in RAID and non-RAID configurations. Reason being, even with today's run-of-the-mill 7200 RPM drives, RAID 0 represents an obscene amount of audio performance. If the CPU hit is 5-10%, then some CPU-starved systems could benefit from this much more than an extra 80 tracks over the 80 that you get with one drive. Thanks for the update, Roger!
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/21 10:19:03
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No problemo, dude! I admit that my wife thought I was nuts, burning a day "just to check out some disk drives"... But it was totally worth it, since it's not unusual for the band I'm in to run 40-50+ tracks in any given tune... And by the time you add FX on there (EQ, compressors, Drumagog, etc) I thought I needed to be more concerned about CPU than disk... Turns out I was right. It's not unusual for me to hit 70% CPU on a "bad" tune. But the disk array never ever complains! Now, if only I could afford a 3.8GHz CPU...
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/21 11:56:57
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
I thought I needed to be more concerned about CPU than disk...
Turns out I was right. It's not unusual for me to hit 70% CPU on a "bad" tune. But the disk array never ever complains!
Now, if only I could afford a 3.8GHz CPU...
Congrats on getting 70% CPU without a dropout. Your system must be pretty lean & clean. No surprise that the RAID 0 shows small disk usage numbers even with 50+ tracks. The only thing I'd add here is that by making the SATA non-RAID, you could squeak out what little CPU is being used by the driver for your RAID controller (I remember now, the Promise controller uses less CPU than the ICH5R Southbridge controller). And unless your drive usage is running near 50% with the RAID 0, I'm not sure that you'd suffer too badly with a non-RAID audio drive.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/22 19:16:14
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For posterity's sake, here is another relevant thread featuring an ASUS A7N8X MOBO with SATA audio, this time with an EMU 1820 audio card. Some added tips on PCI latency timer settings (including some good direct input from HammerHead) can be found there. [Edited for proper link]
< Message edited by losguy -- 10/22/2004 6:24:40 PM >
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 00:54:38
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hello again, my smart and helpful friends :) i haven't posted in over a week, mostly just because i had nothing constructive to say or ask. everything i tried made absolutely NO change to my situation (despite how good all the advice was) and i just grew increasingly frustrated. i didn't know what questions to ask next or what to try on my own (my problem was originally described in the middle of page 8). i reformatted/reinstalled, i went through all the cakewalk troubleshooting steps again, thinking that maybe i had been barking up the wrong tree (SATA PCI bus conflict). still no luck. maybe dropping the computer out the window would help? but there is now apparently some good news. i work in technology, so i have access to some fellow nerds, all with different backgrounds. i explained my situation to one of them who does a lot of digital video. i was asking him if he had any IDE drives he'd swap out in exchange for my sata drives (i was ready to throw in the towel). he didn't want to see me give up on sata, suggested i try a PCI sata controller card. i couldn't see how that might possible help...it'd still be on the PCI bus. but he thought if my audio controller and the sata controller were both PCI cards that they'd "play more nicely together". he let me borrow a 2-port sata card and i installed it tonight. just one drive for testing, containing both system and audio files. lo and behold, i've been able to playback the few projects i have, all without a glitch. the few pops or scary noises were infrequent and repeatable (indicating to me that they're burned into the wav files - just quickie scratch tracks to begin with - and not a glitch in playback). for now, i'm satisfied. i need to pick up a 4-port controller card (that supports RAID) so i can use all of my drives (the card i'm using to test is 2 ports only, no RAID). any suggestions for a particular PCI SATA controller card? i was probably gonna try to find a promise card...i've heard good things, both here and elsewhere. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. as a solution, this seems to makes sense to me, because i had no way of tweaking the PCI latency settings for any of the devices on my mobo. the onboard sata controller was likely hogging the bus and there was nothing i could do about it (the latency was a frustrating, read-only ZERO). but the PCI sata controller is just a PCI card, so there's no reason that it would be given unusual priority over any other PCI device, right? i think that, by virtue of the fact it is a PCI card, its priority is lower than that of my onboard sata controller. well, even if i'm wrong, the PCI card seemed to solve my problem. and the PCI latency of the new sata controller card is editable, if i should need to tweak it. sorry for the long post, i probably could have said that more briefly...but i'm pretty excited about what could be the fix that finally gets me going...i had almost forgotten that this is a DAW and i should be using it to record music! many thanks to everyone who read and/or responded. and hopefully this info could help someone in a similar situation... i only hope i haven't spoken too soon 
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 11:54:07
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one more thing about the switch i made from my onboard sata controller to the pci card controller...
i used sisoft sandra to benchmark the data transfer using both controllers. both the onboard sata and the pci card sata returned about the same results for data transfers to/from the same 80GB sata hard drive (45-50 MBps). so it seems the performance difference between the two controllers might be negligible. i just wanted to add that little tidbit...
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 13:19:38
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Great work, token. First of all, see if you can tell us the make & model of the PCI SATA controller card that you tried, and if at all possible, tell us what controller chipset it uses. That will be a big clue toward your choice of which card to buy. Other than that, I can offer you that rogerlons reported a couple of pages back that a Promise onboard (non-integrated) SATA controller worked well, and in that particular instance was even preferred over the integrated ICH5R SATA controller (lower CPU utilization than ICH5R, at a slight speed penalty). Because a non-integrated onboard SATA controller is the part-and-parcel equivalent of a PCI card SATA controller, if I were to recommend a SATA controller card at this point I'd say to try a Promise card, or at least a card that uses a Promise controller chipset. I haven't looked into this too much, but if I start encountering problems again and I don't make the jump to an nForce3 or ICH5 MOBO soon, I may start looking into it myself as an added option. As of late, I'm really starting to question the general audio capability of the current Silicon Image SATA controller design. It would be extremely helpful if their driver authors could expose more of the guts of the controller for tweaking PCI parameters. PCI latency is only one of several parameters in the PCI interface protocol, and it could be that one of the other parameters is also not set to play "nicely" with audio (cards or otherwise). Other brand controller chipsets could possibly just be "nicer", either in their hardware design, driver design, or choice of PCI interface values. Anyway, there has to be some explanation why the SiI controllers just don't work on some system configurations. Bottom line for now: I would stay away from PCI SATA controller cards that use the Silicon Image chipset. Your MOBO is unique to this thread, to the best of my recollection being the first PCI-E board, and now also having SATA audio issues with an integrated SATA controller. I really hope that this does not become a harbinger of a new norm with SATA on the Intel 925 chipset, or worse, with PCI-E chipsets. (Though figuring this out now could help others in the future.) OTOH, it could just have something to do with it being a Dell MOBO. We'll just have to wait for more SATA audio reports to come in for this chipset and/or PCI-E to know for sure... [Edited for typos]
< Message edited by losguy -- 10/23/2004 1:07:34 PM >
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 13:32:10
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ORIGINAL: tokenwhite
i used sisoft sandra to benchmark the data transfer using both controllers. both the onboard sata and the pci card sata returned about the same results for data transfers to/from the same 80GB sata hard drive (45-50 MBps). so it seems the performance difference between the two controllers might be negligible. i just wanted to add that little tidbit...
Most likely limited by the drive itself. Edit: Translates to a theoretical boatload of tracks (assuming this is sustained throughput).
< Message edited by losguy -- 10/23/2004 12:43:48 PM >
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 14:48:00
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First of all, see if you can tell us the make & model of the PCI SATA controller card that you tried, and if at all possible, tell us what controller chipset it uses. That will be a big clue toward your choice of which card to buy. hmmm...the controller is the "Silicon Image SiI 3112 SATALink Controller" (2 port sata, no raid). i'm not sure how to tell what chipset it uses, though the name might indicate that... it seems my system doesn't follow *any* of the rules, eh? given this info, do you think it would still be a good idea to go with a promise controller? or does the fact that the SI controller works ok indicate that maybe the promise wouldn't? i'm out of my league here. as far as the problem with my mobo, i wouldn't doubt that it has something to do with dell...maybe if i have time this week, i'll give them a call and see if they give me a clue about this. i find it hard to believe that a new intel board like this would be so limiting on its own... Most likely limited by the drive itself. Edit: Translates to a theoretical boatload of tracks (assuming this is sustained throughput).
sounds good to me! i've gotta run now, but i'll spend more time with this tomorrow. i'll post anything interesting/new that i find. thanks again, this thread has been so valuable...
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/23 17:36:02
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ORIGINAL: tokenwhite
hmmm...the controller is the "Silicon Image SiI 3112 SATALink Controller" (2 port sata, no raid). i'm not sure how to tell what chipset it uses, though the name might indicate that... Yup. That's the same as the one on my system, and on lots of other systems, some of which work, some of which don't. Looks like it worked on yours. it seems my system doesn't follow *any* of the rules, eh? Man, no joke. You got that right. given this info, do you think it would still be a good idea to go with a promise controller? or does the fact that the SI controller works ok indicate that maybe the promise wouldn't? i'm out of my league here. Can't say for sure, especially given the way your system has acted so far! No problem, the good news here is that, unlike the onboard-MOBO controller, if it doesn't work with one chipset, you can rip it out (gently) and return it for another one with a different controller chipset. If it were my decision, since the SiI 3112 card worked, then that's the one that I would try first, regardless of what others say about other controllers (including me in my last post to you). :) as far as the problem with my mobo, i wouldn't doubt that it has something to do with dell...maybe if i have time this week, i'll give them a call and see if they give me a clue about this. i find it hard to believe that a new intel board like this would be so limiting on its own... Please post back and entertain us with what they say... Hey, what the heck, maybe they have created a new DAW division just for pro audio issues! Yeah! :) thanks again, this thread has been so valuable... Glad to be of help. As you'll notice, I take particular interest in new and challenging systems, because that teaches me and everyone else something new.
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BeachGuitar
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/28 08:28:45
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Hi folks. I haven't posted in over a week because I have been out of town. It appears the bottom line is that some SATA configurations will work, others will not. I have two machines with SATA that do not work. Both of them are ASUS A7N8X Delxuxe motherboards...one is a -E with the gig ethernet. Of course they have the on-board SATA controller. I have tried every possible configuration known to man-kind. I can get them close to working, but no cigar. They seem to do all right if using the on-board sound, but if I try to use my Delta 66 sound card...forget it. I have essentially given up and installed an ATA 133 IDE hard drive. The IDE drive works fine and I will stay on this configuration until there is a known mobo or controller card that works flawlessly with the Delta 66. I sure would like to be using my WD Raptor, but for right now I'll let my wife enjoy its speed on her machine. If anyone has any other suggestions on something to try I am willing to do some testing on my backup machine. As for now, I am getting some fruitful recording done in Sonar using the IDE hard drive. Regards
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/28 10:42:48
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ORIGINAL: BeachGuitar
I have tried every possible configuration known to man-kind. I can get them close to working, but no cigar. They seem to do all right if using the on-board sound, but if I try to use my Delta 66 sound card...forget it. Did you try a PCI card SATA controller? It might be worth a shot. It could come down to a driver interaction with the M-Audio card (I seem to recall another give-up system as having an Audiophile card.) By using a plug-in card, say, having a Promise controller, you would have a completely different SATA chipset and driver. It doesn't change the fundamental issue, in that the SATA contoller would still be sitting on the PCI bus, but the Promise controller/driver might work better for your particular system. And if it doesn't work, you can always look into returning the card.
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ken_earl2000
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/28 12:11:46
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Beachguitar,
If you have a second Sata connection on the MB give it a go. I had a similiar situation with a D66 and Sata drive after going through all the tweaks and SWITCHING to the second Sata connection on the MB (ASUS P4P800-SE) it finally works great.
I must say I am unclear as to whether the SATA connections are acutally faster than a EIDE or not. When I purchased the computer I thought they were and that is why I went with a SATA HD.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/28 12:40:43
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ORIGINAL: ken_earl2000
If you have a second Sata connection on the MB give it a go. I had a similiar situation with a D66 and Sata drive after going through all the tweaks and SWITCHING to the second Sata connection on the MB (ASUS P4P800-SE) it finally works great. If you mean switching to the other SATA controller on your MOBO, then you are backing up what I just recommended to Beach. One difference is that Beach's MOBO, like mine, has only one SATA controller. But adding one is very much like switching, with the added flexibility that you can switch out several and perhaps increase your possibility of finding one that works on your system. I must say I am unclear as to whether the SATA connections are acutally faster than a EIDE or not. When I purchased the computer I thought they were and that is why I went with a SATA HD. The transfer speed is currently limited physically by the HDD itself, not the interface (yet). If the current rate of performance increase continues, though, it won't be too many HDD generations before high-end HDDs surpass the limits of IDE. We're just not there yet.
< Message edited by losguy -- 10/28/2004 11:48:31 AM >
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