SAMPLIFIER
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/21 12:15:58
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ORIGINAL: losguy
Just a friendly "bump" to keep this thread from falling off the map. Thanks!
losguy, Funny you should bump this thread now, and I'm glad you did, because I was just about to. I don't know how to link to it, but I started the thread about the CRASH DATA DUMP late last week. You kindly responded with some helpful advice. Still working on it. Yesterday I came across this thread in my research. My original SATA drive is what I used for audio (120G WDC) until my system crashed when I tried to update my drivers from AMD's website (8131 chipset). The SATA has its own little chip controller on my Tyan 2885S mobo and a SIL3114 software driver. After the crash I could not reboot (got a BSOD during bootup and STOP message indicating possible driver problem.) One reason I tried to update my drivers was frequent spikes on the Sonar disk meter. Bought a new SATA drive and reinstalled everything from the ground up. No longer using the old SATa for audio, more of a storage device. My question is this: is a 15ms search speed normal? The old SATA drive shows this on SisoftSandra diagnostic called File System benchmark. All my other drives, including the new SATA, are 6ms or so--some more and some less--4 being the best on my new SATA. All my SATA drives are driven by the same SIL3114 software controller. (The old SATA drive also has a 29 on Sandra's overall transfer speed rating--I don't have it in front of me so I'm not sure what its called: each drive gets a transfer rate rating or average, and then there is a list of transfer rates for specific types of data transfer tasks--reading, writing, so forth.) "Cached" or "bypass cache" option doesn't make much of a difference. Any thoughts? Anyone make it this far? Still reading this, or are you browsing the latest Nuendo vs. Sonar4 thread? Okay, I'll be there in a second...
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Zlartibartfast
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/21 13:08:17
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samplifier - I can give you my answer, since losguy is not online right now: a 15ms seek time is HORRIBLE for a modern drive - seek times like that haven't been around since the days when PIO mode was the hot ticket! A healthy drive should be around 9ms or less. My SCSI 160 gets about 4.5ms - it's the fastest thing I've got. Now I can't give you my real world SATA seek time because Im running RAID 0, but the vendor specs list 8ms (if I remember correctly). FYI my sustained thoughput in the RAID 0 comes out at about 75MB/s, so as a single disk I would expect to see roughly 40 MB/s. 29 is a little on the low side, but not all that bad. Seek times will not play a role in a same-sector thoughput test, but they will in a random-sector test. anyway, it seems that your crash may have been due to disk malfunction
< Message edited by Zlartibartfast -- 9/21/2004 12:16:01 PM >
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/21 14:02:15
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Everything that Zlart said (thanks, Zlart). Your old WD SATA drive sounds like it may simply be slow, either by design or by happenstance. Also, I recall that the early WD SATA drives were internally a PATA drive with a SATA-to-PATA converter tacked onto the internal board. That could possibly account for some of the slowdown in sustained rate, though that's a bit of a stretch.
Also, curious, what are the makes/models of your new SATA drives?
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SAMPLIFIER
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/21 19:26:05
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Zlart and Los--
My old SATA (the 15ms access rate one) is a brand new WDC Model WD1200JD-00GBB0 Revision 02.05D02. I was off by 6 on the 29 mb/s number. Now that I have my Sandra report here in front of me, it reads
"Drive Index: 35 MB/s" The report breaks down the benchmark read and write numbers. The highest score it got was 54 MB/s for Buffered Write. Lowest was 25 MB/s for Random read.
"Average Access Time: 16ms (estimated)" So I was also off on the access time.
My new SATA is a MAXTOR. I installed it after the test, so I don't have performance info.
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/23 13:15:08
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Be careful about using any benchmark tool as gospel. They can - and will - report information inaccurately, based on how any given test is written. Also beware of claims made by drive manufacturers. They lie.
A claim that a drive has a 9ms access time is usually rated under a best-case scenario. A benchmark may report that time as 20ms, which may be the worst-case. Reality is often somewhere in the middle...
I'm using a pair of those WD 120GB SATA drives in a RAID 0 stripe set and I see phenomenal numbers coming off the pair. Sustained throughput of almost 100 MB/s, which is insanely high, as reported by some utility or another (don't remember now).
It also makes a difference which chipset (controller) you have running the drives. My board has both the ICH5-R Southbridge controller and a Promise RAID controller onboard, and I tested both when I built the box. The Southbridge was faster (a little), but used more CPU (a lot more). So I ended up putting the drives on the Promise controller to minimize CPU usage. Which was smart, since I never (ever) come close to hitting the limit of the drive array, but almost always run my CPU at (well) over 50% when mixing...
Bottom line is, go with what works. I've seen so many people get caught up in "benchmarks" over the years that they pass up otherwise good products because of one number - that in the end doesn't mean very much anyway...
Cheers,
-Roger
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/23 13:27:09
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Great points all, Roger.
BTW, that is very interesting information about more CPU usage using the Southbridge than with the Promise for RAID 0. Could it be that the RAID striping function gets better hardware acceleration support with the Promise? Also, was that CPU usage reported by the benchmark tool, or something more basic (perfmon, taskman)?
I think this could be the first time that I find a real argument away from using a SATA and/or RAID controller integrated onto the Southbridge. Are you using your RAID 0 array for audio by chance? Do you have a PCI audio card? Do you get where I'm going with this...? (hint: see page 1 of this thread)
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/23 13:46:05
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losguy,
The main difference (as far as I can tell) between the Southbridge RAID (yes, it's RAID 0) and the Promise controller is that the Southbridge implementation is all software, while Promise uses a hardware accelerator as well. The difference in CPU performance was substantial - if I recall correctly, the benchmarks reported Southbridge-based CPU as nearly 15%, while Promise was less than 5%. I think I used Passmark for the benchmarks, but I'm not certain, and tested only disk IO (and no other tweaks) to make sure it was a fair test.
I'm not using an external PCI card; both controllers are integrated onto my motherboard (Asus P4C-800E Deluxe). Hey, you get a lot of board for nearly $200!! I did make sure that my audio card (MOTU 2408 MkII) isn't sharing a slot with anything, and have performed most (but not all) of the known XP tweaks.
FYI, I'm currently mixing down my band's first CD. Most of our songs have over 40 tracks (and lots of FX) and this thing is rock-solid stable. I can max out the CPU (and with a 3GHz P4 and a Gig of fast RAM that's not insignificant), but I can NEVER come close to maxing the drive array.
Cheers,
-Roger
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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Zlartibartfast
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/23 14:00:47
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Roger, your observations about the Promise controller are right in line with my experiences using their PCI (and VLB) controllers - they offload CPU utilization very well. Have you tried running Power Strip, as losguy did when this thread was started? On my system it reported lower priority default for my video than most others, but it also showed me that my Sil 3112 SATA, my QLogic SCSI, my Intel 100TX NIC, and my Delta cards were all set to the same value! I have bumped my Deltas' priority up slightly and (so far) have not seen the little hiccups I would get occassionally when overdubbing.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/23 14:03:43
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
The main difference (as far as I can tell) between the Southbridge RAID (yes, it's RAID 0) and the Promise controller is that the Southbridge implementation is all software, while Promise uses a hardware accelerator as well. The difference in CPU performance was substantial - if I recall correctly, the benchmarks reported Southbridge-based CPU as nearly 15%, while Promise was less than 5%. I think I used Passmark for the benchmarks, but I'm not certain, and tested only disk IO (and no other tweaks) to make sure it was a fair test. Fair enough. This is great information, and one more piece in the puzzle of the SATA vs IDE vs RAID vs non-RAID decision. I'm not using an external PCI card; both controllers are integrated onto my motherboard (Asus P4C-800E Deluxe). Hey, you get a lot of board for nearly $200!! I did make sure that my audio card (MOTU 2408 MkII) isn't sharing a slot with anything, and have performed most (but not all) of the known XP tweaks. If you use a tool like PowerStrip or SiSoft SANDRA, you'll probably find that the onboard Promise Controller is strapped onto the same PCI bus as your PCI slot bus (specifically, on the same side of the PCI-PCI bridge as the slot bus). So, it's "as if" it's on the slot bus, even though it's not a PCI card. If not, then I'd like to know more about your MOBO. FYI, I'm currently mixing down my band's first CD. Most of our songs have over 40 tracks (and lots of FX) and this thing is rock-solid stable. I can max out the CPU (and with a 3GHz P4 and a Gig of fast RAM that's not insignificant), but I can NEVER come close to maxing the drive array. Sounds great, Roger. This may all be academic since you're already getting great performance, but if you do encounter inexplicable audio clicks and glitches, you might find it interesting to go back and follow this thread from the top. Cheers! Carlos
< Message edited by losguy -- 9/23/2004 1:10:52 PM >
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SAMPLIFIER
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/24 09:07:32
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
Be careful about using any benchmark tool as gospel. They can - and will - report information inaccurately, based on how any given test is written. Also beware of claims made by drive manufacturers. ...
Bottom line is, go with what works. I've seen so many people get caught up in "benchmarks" over the years that they pass up otherwise good products because of one number - that in the end doesn't mean very much anyway...
Cheers,
-Roger
Yes. I have to agree, if only because for me this is all INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!!  I don't have the skill at this time to use all the info and interpret it properly anyway. Good advise wisely given. Grazi. I think I am going to start a new thread asking people to post different studio configurations. Now THAT would be helpful. You know, "I use this mobo/chipset with this CPU and these hardddrives and this controller for SATA, this soundcard, etc..." There was an article in the last Electronic Musician issue (October 2004) detailing the PC and Mac home studio used by Gary Chang, a professional composer (movie soundtracks, etc.). I have read and reread the piece I-don't-know-how-many- times. It was simply fascinating. They had a diagram of his setup and how his two PCs and one MAC are wired to his keyboard and other outboard gear. And he talked about how he uses it. Sounded so easy and user friendly! He uses ACID to start his ideas. Then maybe goes into Reason to flesh them out further, or goes directly into Logic on his MAC. He also uses Giga Studio. He said he prefers to create his own samples and I think that is the best advice in the whole article. But anyway, a good read, and good technical info on what gadgets to use and where to plug them.
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rogerlons
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/24 11:46:47
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Ohh, the things I'll do for others... Okay Carlos, I downloaded SANDRA so I could give you more information. Indeed, the Promise controller is on the PCI bus, as you suspected. Surprisingly, it's on the same PCI bus as my sound card (I don't know how I'd control that, but I could probably move the card). Even so, I'm not about to mess with it, since I'm getting great performance and no hiccups. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I guess my only point about all of this, for those who are considering building their own DAW and are scared at this point, is that you don't need to be a computer "expert" (like Carlos or me) to build a great DAW. All I did (and I can't say I spent too much time on it) was to do my research and get a great motherboard, good (not cheap) memory and try to put it all together in a way that made sense (like not having video and sound on the same IRQ/bus). Admittedly, I spent a little more time on disk configuration than most... I got a great result with a minimum of effort and no glitches. That's not to say that everybody will, and there's a lot of great information in this thread that can help people out. Like McCauley Caulkin said in Home Alone: "Don't get scared now!" Cheers, -Roger
SONAR 4.0.1 Producer Edition P4 3.0GHz, 1GB RAM, 2 - 120GB SATA HDD in RAID 0 MOTU 2408 Mk.II, Tascam DM-24, Mackie HR824's
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/24 12:19:48
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
Okay Carlos, I downloaded SANDRA so I could give you more information. Indeed, the Promise controller is on the PCI bus, as you suspected. Surprisingly, it's on the same PCI bus as my sound card (I don't know how I'd control that, but I could probably move the card). Even so, I'm not about to mess with it, since I'm getting great performance and no hiccups. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Moving the card to another slot will usually only change it to a different Slot Number on the same PCI bus. I've heard of some MOBO's that have more than one logical PCI bus, and I think Scott Reams was once putting together a super system with a server-class board that had a separate, dedicated 64-bit PCI slot bus. BTW, speaking of MOBO's you're being awfully secretive about yours... ;) Anyway, you're right, don't mess with success. But in case you do encounter glitches, say, because of a change in your system configuration like a UAD-1 card or whatever, then you can always take a look at what a PCI utility like PowerStrip can do for you. (There's a free one too, mentioned a page or two back, but I haven't tried it yet. I do like PowerStrip, though.) I got a great result with a minimum of effort and no glitches. That's not to say that everybody will, and there's a lot of great information in this thread that can help people out.
Like McCauley Caulkin said in Home Alone: "Don't get scared now!"
Thanks for the shot in the arm for me and everyone, Roger. For those of us who are inclined to the challenge, it is definitely worth diving in and building/configuring your own machine from the ground up. Sure, it can be confusing and frustrating at times, but heck, that can be true of a Dell, too. What you learn in the process can sometimes make all the difference (top of this thread is a case in point). And, if you do find yourself in a jam, there are always plenty of helpful folks around here willing to help you through it.
< Message edited by losguy -- 9/24/2004 11:34:39 AM >
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SAMPLIFIER
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/09/28 19:38:34
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ORIGINAL: rogerlons
I'm using a pair of those WD 120GB SATA drives in a RAID 0 stripe set and I see phenomenal numbers coming off the pair. Sustained throughput of almost 100 MB/s, which is insanely high, as reported by some utility or another (don't remember now).
It also makes a difference which chipset (controller) you have running the drives. My board has both the ICH5-R Southbridge controller and a Promise RAID controller onboard, and I tested both when I built the box. The Southbridge was faster (a little), but used more CPU (a lot more). So I ended up putting the drives on the Promise controller to minimize CPU usage. Which was smart, since I never (ever) come close to hitting the limit of the drive array, but almost always run my CPU at (well) over 50% when mixing...
Bottom line is, go with what works. I've seen so many people get caught up in "benchmarks" over the years that they pass up otherwise good products because of one number - that in the end doesn't mean very much anyway...
Cheers,
-Roger
Exactly! May I ask, and do you mind sharing, what motherboard you are using, please? [EDIT: Sorry, I see you posted your mobo specs a few posts back!] And if I may, do you like your Tascam? Would you get it again today or go with something else? Finally, if you were building a new DAW today with a $3500 budget, what would you do? Allow another $2500 for soundcard/audio interface/midi interface. Thank you Roger.
< Message edited by SAMPLIFIER -- 9/28/2004 8:00:20 PM >
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/11 16:54:27
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hello everyone...this is my first post on the cakewalk forum, though i've been lurking for weeks, researching and troubleshooting my fledgling DAW.
i'd first like to say that this is an absolutely awesome resource and i am hopeful that i can get my situation resloved with help from some of you.
info about my DAW:
dell precision 370
3.0 ghz P4 (800mhz, 1mb cache, HT turned off)
1.5 GB 533mhx ECC RAM
80 GB sata system drive
2x80 GB sata raid 0 audio drive
E-mu 1820 PCI audio interface
windows xp pro sp1
sonar 3.1.1 pe
now on to my question. i have been noticing glitches in playback of very simple (2 track) recordings i've made. the "glitch" could be best described as a skip/stutter, and it usually happens a few times during the playback of a 4 minute song (in different spots, i.e. i can replay a section smoothly that previously skipped). i've gone through all of sonar's documentation for audio troubleshooting and tried all of the stuff in there (and on this forum) that i found that made sense for my system. i stripped down all of the bg processes in windows, installed the latest drivers for my audio interface (i'm using ASIO), tried different PCI slots for my sound card, used a very safe latency setting (50ms). still the problem persists. the glitch occurs not just for audio, but for a midi groove clip i set up to take the place of the inoperable metronome. that groove clip would skip/stutter occasionally during playback while i was recording the very first track of the project (guitar audio). i'm not sure if it would do it during *just* playback of the midi groove clip as well, or only while recording audio during the playback of the clip. hmmm....that's the next thing to try...
anyway, i use a separate HDD for audio (SATA RAID 0). the reason i am posting this message here is that my system configuration is suspiciously close to the configuration losguy described in his original post. my mobo (intel 925x) has onboard sata/raid support and it appears that the sata controller utilizes the PCI bus (i checked out the powerstrip app, and it showed the RAID controller in its list of devices, along with my pci express video card, pci sound card and several USB controllers). i tried to modify the pci latency settings using powerstrip, but all devices, except for my audio card, were set to 0 and greyed out. also, i found that my audio card was sharing an IRQ with either the PCI-PCI bridge or one of the USB controllers, depending on which PCI slot i put it in. is there any way, other than swapping PCI slots, to change the IRQ of a device? there is one slot i haven't tried, but it would put my sound card *very* close to my video card, almost touching the heatsink on the video card. to me, it seems a little too close. also, is there any way to change PCI device latency settings if they are greyed out in a program like powerstrip? i am very new to that sort of thing, though i understand the concept.
in terms of the glitch, i wouldn't necessarily call it a click or a pop, as losguy described in his original post. like i said, it's more like a skip/stutter. can anyone suggest a course of action? is it likely a sata/pci issue given the evidence? or perhaps it's something else? any advice would be greatly appreciated. this has been so incredibly frustrating, but i refuse to lose hope...
thanks very much in advance!
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 01:40:54
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ORIGINAL: tokenwhite
hello everyone...this is my first post on the cakewalk forum, though i've been lurking for weeks, researching and troubleshooting my fledgling DAW.
i'd first like to say that this is an absolutely awesome resource and i am hopeful that i can get my situation resloved with help from some of you.
Hey, welcome to the forum, token. And kudos to you for hanging in there. Hopefully you can get the help that you need to get running with your SATA setup. info about my DAW:
dell precision 370
3.0 ghz P4 (800mhz, 1mb cache, HT turned off)
1.5 GB 533mhx ECC RAM
80 GB sata system drive
2x80 GB sata raid 0 audio drive
E-mu 1820 PCI audio interface
windows xp pro sp1
sonar 3.1.1 pe
anyway, i use a separate HDD for audio (SATA RAID 0). the reason i am posting this message here is that my system configuration is suspiciously close to the configuration losguy described in his original post. my mobo (intel 925x) has onboard sata/raid support and it appears that the sata controller utilizes the PCI bus (i checked out the powerstrip app, and it showed the RAID controller in its list of devices, along with my pci express video card, pci sound card and several USB controllers). 925x eh? Pretty snazzy, there. I'm assuming that it's the D925XCV. Please tell whether or not it is. OK, since you have PowerStrip, you really want to look again and map out where all your devices sit on which logical PCI buses (yes, that's plural). In most cases for desktops, you ought to find three: Bus 0, 1, and 2. These separately handle a) everything that's on the Southbridge, b) the AGP bus, and c) the physical PCI slot bus. The Southbridge is the lowest-level interface, and is about as close to the CPU that a peripheral device can get. Usually, it's arranged as Bus 0 for a), Bus 1 for b), and Bus 2 for c), but I've encountered some deviations from this. Anyway, I'd expect that you'll find your SATA controller sits right on the Southbridge bus. All other buses have to use a PCI-PCI Bridge Controller to funnel activity on their respective buses down to the Southbridge bus. OK, I downloaded the Technical Reference for the D925XCV. The PCI Config Space Map is on page 59 (Table 14). Yes, the SATA is definitely on the Southbridge. i tried to modify the pci latency settings using powerstrip, but all devices, except for my audio card, were set to 0 and greyed out. also, i found that my audio card was sharing an IRQ with either the PCI-PCI bridge or one of the USB controllers, depending on which PCI slot i put it in. I hate to say it, but it looks like you got the cart a bit before the horse here. Before touching PCI latency settings, you really should make absolutely sure to isolate the IRQs of all audio devices. They should only share with another device that is either not in use, or has been guranteed or somehow otherwise tested to truly not interfere with the audio device. is there any way, other than swapping PCI slots, to change the IRQ of a device? there is one slot i haven't tried, but it would put my sound card *very* close to my video card, almost touching the heatsink on the video card. to me, it seems a little too close. Yes, you can take your computer out of ACPI mode, but with modern MOBOs this is not necessary in most cases. But even if you do, you cannot guarantee that you will find a PCI slot that doesn't share at the board level. Your best bet is really to find a slot that either a) doesn't share with a device or b) shares with a device that you can disable during DAW use. (Also, just making sure you know, you can look in Device Manager > View > Resources by Type > IRQ to quickly get a read on what devices are assigned to which IRQs.) also, is there any way to change PCI device latency settings if they are greyed out in a program like powerstrip? i am very new to that sort of thing, though i understand the concept. The greying out of zero values has been discussed before in this thread, but I'll sum it up here: Some devices just come up zero and can't be changed. Others can, but if you zero them manually, they will be stuck there. You can jolt them loose by clicking onthe little button to the right, to restore them to factory default values after the next System Restart. After that, if they are not zero at the factory, then they will come up as nonzero and you can play with them again. Take a look at your AGp card... it really ought to not be zero. Practical values are anything from 32 to 192. Higher values than that have been known to hog even Bus 0 on some systems. in terms of the glitch, i wouldn't necessarily call it a click or a pop, as losguy described in his original post. like i said, it's more like a skip/stutter. can anyone suggest a course of action? is it likely a sata/pci issue given the evidence? or perhaps it's something else? any advice would be greatly appreciated. this has been so incredibly frustrating, but i refuse to lose hope...
thanks very much in advance!
This sounds more and more like an IRQ or audio card buffering issue, or maybe even a sync issue. Did EMU ever get their WDM drivers going? If not, then make sure that you are setting your buffer depth (latency) properly... just so you know, the latency slider does not work for ASIO. Also be careful about your digital audio sync sources at every level, from the 1820 driver GUI all the way up to SONAR settings. Whiel you're at it, you should check that your Sample Rates are consistent everywhere. Happy hunting!
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LixiSoft
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 05:26:34
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All good stuff here......losguy has given you some great ideas to get you going in the right direction <g>. Hang in there Token, you will sort it out. Nice to talk to you last night at the GC Sonar Demo, I wish I could have been more helpful, but it looks as though you are in good hands and getting a bead on the problem.
Good Luck,
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 10:12:25
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it was good talking to you last night as well, lixisoft. you *were* quite helpful, even if you didn't think so. you focused me a little more on where is should be looking for a solution, which is a big part of what i need right now...after all my fruitless troubleshooting, it was getting difficult to even know what to look at next. now i know i need to go deeper into the PCI/IRQ stuff, which will hopefully yield an improvement/solution.
thanks again for the encouraging words. i'll be in touch about my findings.
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tokenwhite
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 10:36:07
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losguy, this is exactly the type of information i was hoping for. thank you so much for your time and input. i may not have time to play with all of this stuff until tomorrow evening, but i will post with more info as soon as i do. i am 90% sure that it is the 925 XCV mobo. i will double check and get back to you. i'm going to map out where my devices sit on the pci buses. thanks for the info about the logical buses, i didn't know about that, and will look into it a little deeper. as far as i can tell, i have no AGP slot (and therefore no AGP bus?). my video is in a PCI express x16 slot, which i assume is handled differently than AGP.
I hate to say it, but it looks like you got the cart a bit before the horse here. Before touching PCI latency settings, you really should make absolutely sure to isolate the IRQs of all audio devices. They should only share with another device that is either not in use, or has been guranteed or somehow otherwise tested to truly not interfere with the audio device.
that makes sense, i was just in the "i'll try anything" mode and thought i'd give it a shot. i never actually got to change any of the latency settings, though, b/c of the "grey-out" issue.
The greying out of zero values has been discussed before in this thread...
i read that segment about the greyed-out values and had hoped (fingers-crossed) that perhaps there was some way around it. and, oddly, the "reset to factory" button is also greyed out. perhaps b/c i made no changes to the original config. but, like you said, cart before the horse, i gotta tackle the IRQ situation first.
just so you know, the latency slider does not work for ASIO
really? i didn't realize that at all. i *did* notice that when i click on the ASIO button in the sonar audio properties, i get a small E-mu popup window with a drop down box to select a latency i want. then back in the sonar audio properties window, i have a latency slider who's max value is the same as its min value. is that what you meant by the latency slider not working? i will look into your recommendations about buffer depth, digital audio sync, and the WDM drivers (which i don't think have been finished yet...i'll have to check). ok, back to work (day job). i will check back in the next couple days with an update. again, thanks so much for your time and advice.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 16:32:10
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ORIGINAL: tokenwhite
losguy, this is exactly the type of information i was hoping for. thank you so much for your time and input. i may not have time to play with all of this stuff until tomorrow evening, but i will post with more info as soon as i do.
i am 90% sure that it is the 925 XCV mobo. i will double check and get back to you.
i'm going to map out where my devices sit on the pci buses. thanks for the info about the logical buses, i didn't know about that, and will look into it a little deeper. Cool. as far as i can tell, i have no AGP slot (and therefore no AGP bus?). my video is in a PCI express x16 slot, which i assume is handled differently than AGP. Now, this is interesting. According to the above-linked Intel MOBO manual (Section 1.1, page 11), now with the advent of the new PCI Express(R), what I have been calling the "PCI Slot Bus" will now be called PCI Conventional. (I guess it's sort of like Coca-Cola Classic, only for peripheral I/O devices.) Yeah, it's different, but it's still logically a PCI device. Only it looks like it will basically be faster and better. It sits directly on logical PCI Bus 0, with no PCI-PCI bridge (for that matter, so do the other PCI Express ports, including the GBit Ethernet bridge, which is hardwired onto PCI Express port 2). I would be very interested in knowing what the factory default PCI latency settings are for the PCI Express graphics device, seeing as it sits right on logical PCI Bus 0. I'm wondering if this could be the first graphics interface with a PCI latency timer hard-set to zero? i *did* notice that when i click on the ASIO button in the sonar audio properties, i get a small E-mu popup window with a drop down box to select a latency i want. That's pretty convenient. then back in the sonar audio properties window, i have a latency slider who's max value is the same as its min value. is that what you meant by the latency slider not working? Yeah, I think that's what I meant, sure! <8') i will look into your recommendations about buffer depth, digital audio sync, and the WDM drivers (which i don't think have been finished yet...i'll have to check). Cool. ok, back to work (day job). i will check back in the next couple days with an update. again, thanks so much for your time and advice. YVW. Day job? What's that? :)
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 16:44:55
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All. for the sake of duty and completeness, I thought I'd mention a PCI latency utility called DoubleDawg. It's free, if you don't mind running it manually on startup, but you can also purchase an automatic version for $10. So, it's cheaper than PowerStrip, and it takes you right to the PCI latency timers (without all the extra graphics card control, if you're not into that sort of thing). To give credit where credit is due, I found it over on this thread. Just for that brilliant bit of work, Dave and Al, you get: ..\D a rare -and coveted- hat-tip from the losguy!
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ken_earl2000
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/12 17:57:07
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All right so I've only built 4 or 5 computers and decided to build a computer exclusivly for AUDIO. Was I an idiot? I am no genius just a simple country fellow.
Any way I thought I did enough research and decided on a Seagate Serial ATA 160 gb Barracuda for Audio and recycle my 80gb WD EIDE for the OS and the W2k cd I had kicking around. An ASUS p4p800se board (865PE chipset), 1gb Corsair pc3200, Delta 66/Omni I/O, ASUS 9600 128mbDDR vid card and S3PE.
The computer seemed to work fine UNTIL I tried to record 1 simple audio track.
My CPU meter flutters up and down for a bout 20 seconds, the wave form display lags behind then the CPU meter jumps to 100% and then Sonar3 PE either stops recording or locks up. When disk read/write caching is enabled its the Hard drive meter that flutters and all the same other stuff.
Does someone know what the heck I am doing or not doing here. I switched to Standard PC and tried to swap around my sound card to fix the old IRQ thing. But my sound card is still sharing an IRQ with the onboard LAN. Regardless my sound card works fine, even though I know it ideally should be on it's own IRQ channel. Either way I can't get the S-ata drive to properly record. I have notice that when I switch Audio to the WD EIDE drive I can record fine.
If any one knows what I should do, and they actually read this far, I will be eternally grateful (until next week) I'll also help 4 old ladies cross the street and volunteer at the local soup kitchen.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 09:55:25
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ORIGINAL: ken_earl2000
My CPU meter flutters up and down for a bout 20 seconds, the wave form display lags behind then the CPU meter jumps to 100% and then Sonar3 PE either stops recording or locks up. When disk read/write caching is enabled its the Hard drive meter that flutters and all the same other stuff. This doesn't sound right. With your system, your CPU should be barely taxed, if at all. You should have a SATA utility that lets you get/set the transfer mode for your SATA drive. I'm suspicious that it may be set to a PIO mode, which ties up CPU and is very slooow. It should be set to the highest UDMA mode that it will support. As far as cacheing goes, I've had best results by turning it ON down at the drive level (where it's handled by hardware), and turning it OFF up in SONAR (where it's handled by software). Does someone know what the heck I am doing or not doing here. I switched to Standard PC and tried to swap around my sound card to fix the old IRQ thing. But my sound card is still sharing an IRQ with the onboard LAN. Regardless my sound card works fine, even though I know it ideally should be on it's own IRQ channel. Too bad, switching off of ACPI won't help this board. According to the PCI IRQ Table on page 2-17 of the Manual, PCI Slot 1 shares IRQ with PCI Slot 5, PCI Slot 2 shares IRQ with the onboard LAN, and (this is shocking) every slot shares with the onboard USB. (What the heck were they thinking?) Anyway, you probably have your audio card in Slot 2. If you plan to have your ethernet port enabled while doing audio, I'd put the card in Slot 3 or 4, or perhaps in Slot 5 with nothing in Slot 1. Also, I'd be very leery of plugging any USB device into an onboard USB port. If you see conflicts, you might be better off just disabling onboard USB. HTH!
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ken_earl2000
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 13:24:18
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"I'm suspicious that it may be set to a PIO mode, which ties up CPU and is very slooow. It should be set to the highest UDMA mode that it will support"
I'll try that tonight to see.
"According to the PCI IRQ Table on page 2-17 of the Manual, PCI Slot 1 shares IRQ with PCI Slot 5, PCI Slot 2 shares IRQ with the onboard LAN, and (this is shocking) every slot shares with the onboard USB. (What the heck were they thinking?) Anyway, you probably have your audio card in Slot 2. If you plan to have your ethernet port enabled while doing audio, I'd put the card in Slot 3 or 4, or perhaps in Slot 5 with nothing in Slot 1. Also, I'd be very leery of plugging any USB device into an onboard USB port. If you see conflicts, you might be better off just disabling onboard USB."
It didn't even dawn on me to check the MB manual before I purchased it. I guess I am a little bit wiser.
Two questions.....
1-can I simply not use the LAN port and not use any USB devices
2-could I go into the BIOS when using as DAW and disable these devices then enable them if/when I need them, (kind of a switch idea)?
Thanks immensly for the Reply. I hope it works.
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BeachGuitar
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 14:52:21
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I also have the A7N8X-E Deluxe. I tried your suggestions of tweaking the latency settings of the serial ata, video, and sound. I have also rebuilt Windows 2000 as a "Standard PC" rather than "ACPI" and disabled the com and parallel ports in order to grab a separate IRQ. I still have the "Nvidia Nforce PCI System Management" grabbing the same IRQ as my Delta 66 sound card...IRQ 4. I have no way I know of to reserve it for the Delta. My sound is worse now than when running as "ACPI". My original configuration runs perfect when I use an ATA-133 IDE hard drive. When running with the Serial ATA it POPs and Cracks horribly.
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON WHAT TO TRY NEXT????
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:13:40
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ORIGINAL: BeachGuitar
I also have the A7N8X-E Deluxe. I tried your suggestions of tweaking the latency settings of the serial ata, video, and sound. I have also rebuilt Windows 2000 as a "Standard PC" rather than "ACPI" and disabled the com and parallel ports in order to grab a separate IRQ. I still have the "Nvidia Nforce PCI System Management" grabbing the same IRQ as my Delta 66 sound card...IRQ 4. I have no way I know of to reserve it for the Delta. My sound is worse now than when running as "ACPI". My original configuration runs perfect when I use an ATA-133 IDE hard drive. When running with the Serial ATA it POPs and Cracks horribly.
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON WHAT TO TRY NEXT????
beachguitar, i have about the same setup you do...same mobo with win2k...setup as standard pc on my daw partition. basically the same audio card (i have a 1010lt)... i chased pops and clicks forever , dinked around with pci latencies to no avail, screamed, updated drivers, reloaded windoze, etc, etc until i did 2 things: 1.to get my audio card isolated on its own irq i ended up having to disable EVERYTHING in the bios (all USB's, wireless lan etc) except for the onboard sata (which i use for 2 drives for audio) and onboard NIC (the slow one) 2.disable the onboard NIC card in the windoze 2k profile on my daw partition. now there's no more pops/clicks etc hope this helps
< Message edited by HammerHead -- 10/13/2004 3:21:48 PM >
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BeachGuitar
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:26:30
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Thanks HammerHead. Did you also disable the IDE drives?? I really would not want to as I would like to have a cdburner on my DAW. Also, I really would like to use my MidiSport USB interface for my MIDI keyboards. What did you do about these two items??
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:27:53
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Thanks, HH. You #1 good-advice guy!
Like I keep saying, Don't get the cart before the horse. Before you even try dinking with PCI latency, first get the audio card and the SATA on their own IRQ's. And, unless you like playing Russian Roulette with your PCI slots, then open your MOBO manual and look up the PCI IRQ table. The table will help you pick the right slot on the first try.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:32:24
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ORIGINAL: ken_earl2000
It didn't even dawn on me to check the MB manual before I purchased it. I guess I am a little bit wiser. You're in very good company. Usually the first time any of us looks at this table is because we're being stung by IRQ's in some way. Two questions.....
1-can I simply not use the LAN port and not use any USB devices
2-could I go into the BIOS when using as DAW and disable these devices then enable them if/when I need them, (kind of a switch idea)? 1) Yes. It's totally your choice, toe-dully. 2) Yes, BIOS is the "cleanest" way to disable a device, as Windows then never even sees the device. But you can also try Disabling the unwanted devices in Device Manager. That way, you can set up different Hardware Profiles (i.e. DAW, General Purpose) and Save/Recall them as you wish.
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:39:41
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ORIGINAL: BeachGuitar
Thanks HammerHead. Did you also disable the IDE drives?? I really would not want to as I would like to have a cdburner on my DAW. Also, I really would like to use my MidiSport USB interface for my MIDI keyboards. What did you do about these two items??
NO....i also have 2 IDE hard drives (for apps and os) and 2 CD drives. as far as USB is concerned i'm not sure....i dont have any usb devices so disabling them caused me no heartburn.
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/10/13 15:45:04
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open your MOBO manual and look up the PCI IRQ table. The table will help you pick the right slot on the first try.
odd story here...could be user malfunction but i dont think the manual for my A7N8X-E Deluxe is 100% correct....i even downloaded the one from the asus TS site & still had the same issue. its a bit foggy in memory now but i think i remember swapping my audio card around and getting conflicts with the agp slot that weren't marked in the manual. i managed to find a free slot & all is ok but their manual is off i think.
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