John T
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:18:55
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As I've already said, I don't rate the thing hugely *in comparison to a proper mastering job*. But I do agree with Noel that the before and after examples on the site undersell it. It's more impressive than I thought it would be when I first heard of it.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:19:44
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azslow3
Just joking, but I have thought the whole point to have a DAW is to fine tune all aspects from input till the result. "One knob" audio creation with "One knob" effects applets for iPad/Android are well known, and the result still can be sent to LANDR for "professional automatic mastering". Is that the future?
Az if you have tried to do mastering you will realize how many variables there are to do it properly. You have to have great ears, a properly treated room, tons of experience with mastering chains of plugins and objectivity. Besides the aesthetics and art there is a lot of science to mastering. A lot of the tedious tasks in mastering can certainly be automated which is what Landr is doing behind the scenes. And by using machine learning algorithms its absolutely possible to pull in the kind of mindshare an experienced mastering engineer would have. There is a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes for that one knob - its not just picking a preset like you might do in Ozone. Its really "listening" to the music and adaptively making decisions on how to master the music based on the actual content. In many ways its similar to the thought process an engineer would go through. Except here its using DSP and advanced math to make the decisions rather than ears. I would argue that in some cases the math would be more accurate than someones ears depending on how old the person is :) VocalSync was developed using machine learning to figure out how to take a vocal and figure out the transients and stretches for example - did you know that?
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2016/02/23 18:35:32
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Mosvalve
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:21:33
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Mosvalve
I listened to their examples on their website and I have to say they sound horrible to me. I hope this isn't the future. I guess in the future everything is going to be microwavable.
Don't do that - taste is very subjective. If you listened to presets on most synths you would think they were all horrible :)
Try it with your own music and start with the Landr Low setting. You might be surprised how good it actually is.
If you are willing to tweak your mix to accommodate what you get from Landr its very possible to get an excellent master.
Your right about that. I was going to try it anyway with my mixes just to see. I actually hope it works well.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:22:47
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Let us know how you fare. Definitely start out with the low preset and if you don't like something adjust your mix to compensate.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:24:44
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John T
As I've already said, I don't rate the thing hugely *in comparison to a proper mastering job*. But I do agree with Noel that the before and after examples on the site undersell it. It's more impressive than I thought it would be when I first heard of it.
Lets just say that I tried it on my last recording and on some of the tracks it sounded better than my professional masters. It in fact revealed weaknesses in my mixes that I wasn't aware of. If I had this when I was mixing I wouldn't have made those decisions.
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Billy Buck
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:39:06
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I did not read anything in the "Newburyport" update bug fix list related to two similar problem reports (CWBRN-46065 & CWBRN-34347) I previously posted. But after I updated, I tried replicating the issue and I could not do it anymore. So whether by design or happenstance, I guess you could say this bug is now officially squashed. I did add a "Fixed" note to the original problem reports Good job Cake!  Billy Buck
post edited by Billy Buck - 2016/02/23 18:53:22
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John T
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 18:45:22
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
John T
As I've already said, I don't rate the thing hugely *in comparison to a proper mastering job*. But I do agree with Noel that the before and after examples on the site undersell it. It's more impressive than I thought it would be when I first heard of it.
Lets just say that I tried it on my last recording and on some of the tracks it sounded better than my professional masters. It in fact revealed weaknesses in my mixes that I wasn't aware of. If I had this when I was mixing I wouldn't have made those decisions.
And that's another good use case for the thing.
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Paul P
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 19:16:10
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/02/23 19:31:54
John T
There's also an emergent middle tier of production that's not going away, I think, which is bands and artists going completely DIY, without necessarily ever becoming great engineers. Not everyone is looking for a radio hit, or even a polished sound. Some people are happy with delivering more home-spun material to a small-ish audience, and get a lot of gratification from being a bit cottage industry about it. And good luck to them.
I've mixed exactly one song in my career (from a set of poor recordings my daughter gave me that she'd recorded in her square untreated bedroom). My mastering stage consisted of turning on the Concrete Limiter on the master buss to fatten the song up a bit and bring it close to 0db. I'm sure that there are some common denominator things mastering engineers do that could be (often) handled by a general purpose program and that would work better than what I did. Like translators who save some time by passing their document through a software translator as a first pass before cleaning it up by hand (but which is only worth it on the easy stuff). That said, I doubt very much I'll make use of LANDR. I'd rather pratice and learn to do it myself, for the joy of it (and anything I do won't be going very far anyway).
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stickman393
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 19:36:24
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>> The “Give all Keystrokes to Plug-in” function was not working correctly with some plug-ins (MeldaProduction)
Now THAT is a freakin' reason to upgrade, right there.
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azslow3
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 19:49:07
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2016/02/23 23:14:59
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
azslow3
Just joking, but I have thought the whole point to have a DAW is to fine tune all aspects from input till the result. "One knob" audio creation with "One knob" effects applets for iPad/Android are well known, and the result still can be sent to LANDR for "professional automatic mastering". Is that the future?
Az if you have tried to do mastering you will realize how many variables there are to do it properly. You have to have great ears, a properly treated room, tons of experience with mastering chains of plugins and objectivity.
Besides the aesthetics and art there is a lot of science to mastering. A lot of the tedious tasks in mastering can certainly be automated which is what Landr is doing behind the scenes. And by using machine learning algorithms its absolutely possible to pull in the kind of mindshare an experienced mastering engineer would have.
There is a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes for that one knob - its not just picking a preset like you might do in Ozone. Its really "listening" to the music and adaptively making decisions on how to master the music based on the actual content. In many ways its similar to the thought process an engineer would go through. Except here its using DSP and advanced math to make the decisions rather than ears. I would argue that in some cases the math would be more accurate than someones ears depending on how old the person is :)
VocalSync was developed using machine learning to figure out how to take a vocal and figure out the transients and stretches for example - did you know that?
Noel, I am not in position to judge the quality of this "tool". I just do not like the model it is deployed and I find a bit curious that developers of another tool which is close related to the task are promoting that "easy way". Right now I am siting in the center where thousands of people working with simulations, pattern recognitions, multi-parametric optimizations, DSP algorithms and so on. I know what it is and I know that is not an easy task. I wish we could have LANDRes for some our tasks, people could sit at home (organizations) and there will be no problem to find a table during lunch time 
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John T
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:04:20
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Hmm. Myself, I'm not precious about any of it. I certainly don't want to carry on making candles after the invention of the lightbulb. LANDR is a long way off replacing the craft of mastering, but I can well imagine such a thing coming to pass.
If you want to get really freaked out, I heard a thing on BBC radio 4 a few months back where some researchers are working on automated mixing algorithms. And the results are still fairly lame, but they're also more impressive than is entirely comfortable. I can't remember the details offhand, but they've got a published white paper and some audio examples that are VERY interesting.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:14:20
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azslow3
Noel, I am not in position to judge the quality of this "tool". I just do not like the model it is deployed and I find a bit curious that developers of another tool which is close related to the task are promoting that "easy way".
Az you are an uber-geek so that automatically disqualifies you from being the target audience for a tool like this :) For the rest of the mortals that dont have the knowledge to study hundreds of parameters on plugins and the science of mastering this is a great way to create better sounding mixes.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:18:56
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Paul P
That said, I doubt very much I'll make use of LANDR. I'd rather pratice and learn to do it myself, for the joy of it (and anything I do won't be going very far anyway).
Paul, you may actually learn a great deal by listening to a landr master and then trying to match what you like about it yourself. Or correct what you dislike... Its just another tool in the arsenal available to SONAR users. Use it or abuse it :)
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1andyf88
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:31:23
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If LANDR is treated like a plug in, is it possible to uninstall it, or not install in the first place? I am away from the desk right now and can't see how CCC delivers it. I've seen their ads on FB more than a few times, but it is not a feature I really have a use for.
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Anderton
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:36:15
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It's not a plug-in. It's a cloud-based service where you send them a file and they return it.
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Mosvalve
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:41:35
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1andyf88
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:46:13
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Anderton
It's not a plug-in. It's a cloud-based service where you send them a file and they return it.
Thanks, Mr. Anderton, I figured that out, but it is integrated in the export dialogue box, sort of like their desktop app.... (from LANDR website) "Desktop App that lets you LANDR all your tracks at once, work directly from your DAW and back-up your masters to the cloud as you work." I am sure many people will enjoy exploring this. My question is, is it baked in the cake, or can the frosting be scraped off?
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rebel007
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:53:55
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I like the idea of LANDR. I almost always have songs to be released into the wild mastered for me, as I don't trust either my ears or my room.
LANDR is just another tool that allows part time studio nerds like me, create something approaching a good result. It's one of the great things about Sonar, and has been since the days of Pro Audio 9, which was when I began using DAWs.
I do hope it last longer than Gobbler though. That's one of the down sides of giving off part of your program to an outside process.
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John T
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 20:54:52
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Anderton
It's not a plug-in. It's a cloud-based service where you send them a file and they return it.
It may not be a plugin in the conventional sense, but I think I've found an installation problem. Seems to work ok from the export audio dialog, but from the Utilities > LANDR Online Mastering, I get this: --------------------------- SONAR Platinum --------------------------- Tool not found: 'C:\Program Files (x86)\LANDR Audio\LANDR\Landr.exe' --------------------------- OK ---------------------------
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Tom Riggs
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 21:02:36
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So, why is the download file so much larger than the last one? This update is 503MB and the last update was 425MB.
Just wondering...because of my slow internet I guess.
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scook
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 21:09:24
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My guess is the bundled LANDR client software.
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brconflict
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:12:38
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☄ Helpfulby Tom Riggs 2016/02/23 22:35:19
Still having to download through the store. The Command Center still doesn't seem to understand recovery of a frozen, iffy, or lost session. Just quits downloading at a random % and never recovers.
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Tom Riggs
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:25:19
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brconflict
Still having to download through the store. The Command Center still doesn't seem to understand recovery of a frozen, iffy, or lost session. Just quits downloading at a random % and never recovers.
I do the same but I put the files in the CCC download folder then use CCC to install it. THat way the Checksum is verified. If they would make CCC's download "manager" more intelligent I would use it for the whole process simplifying things as I believe it is intended.
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gswitz
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:30:16
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I'm curious and hopeful, but mostly I've been underwhelmed by machine learning in all applications I've been close to. I think the real learning is in 'what do we do to get people to let go of there pennies'. (Mention machine learning, ha ha) I sure wish we could get the simple stuff to work. Remove silence for example. It is part of the software and hasn't worked right for as long as I can remember. I spend a ton of time doing it manually. Hearing about Landr is like listening to a child promise she can do physics but when asked 7*5 says it's too hard to answer. Takes too much time. Or answers 42, I mean 49. The two things together leave me with tremendous doubt. Sorry for being a pia. I liked gobbler while it lasted. https://www.landr.com/en/pricingI'd much rather learn or be taught some of the science. I realize software partnerships can benefit me, but this one leaves me hollow. I think I'll pass.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/02/23 23:08:10
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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chriswickens
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:55:53
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2016/02/23 23:12:33
Wow that mastering thing sounds neat except you have to pay extra for it. If this keeps up I'll be dumping Sonar. I don't need to pay to get bloatware.
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thornton
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:59:21
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I like it for quick way of doing a mp3, demo for a band to listen to because sometimes the band want it to be loud like on a professional cd; even if its not final mix. ,but I would rather have more control of the Mastering part for the final touch on the song or cd
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gswitz
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 22:59:25
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Right? If we wanted to buy the service and upload our stuff, we don't need any changes to Sonar to do this. I'm not really sure what Landr has to do with Sonar.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Keni
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 23:01:34
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All this talk about mastering brings some thoughts to mind...
Yes, I appreciate a good job of mastering, but I also remember it originally being the process of transferring from tape to lacquer/vinyl which by its nature had a very low signal resulting in a lot of amplification noise. Alng came the RIAA standard of high/low roll-offs and tone controls to compensate (as well as speaker design - boosted high and low).. So the art was developed to deal with that as well as possible...
Now with more reasonable speakers and full bandwidth final audio, I question its real need...?
If a song is well mixed, is mastering really necessary...
Not "bragging", but most of my mixes already sound as I want them and I leave the decision of dynamic range improvement to be done after the mix so I can fit each song within a project comfortably...
I can understand involved mastering for mixes that have problems, but why would I want to change the sound of a mix I like? That would tell me I need a remix...?
So while I'm glad this is available to help situations in need, but I don't expect to be using it myself...
I'm not a genius mix engineer, but I usually get what I want out of projects I record and most of the time for recordings made by others...
Hopefully, the volume wars are nearing an end... So learning to do good mixes takes us further from the need for complex/invasive mastering...
...just my 2 cents.
Thanks for building it into a sonar for anyone who finds a need... Nice to know its there however long it lasts! ;-)
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brconflict
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/23 23:33:45
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New TrackThe 'New Track' function looks good and the workflow of it seems realistic. Unfortunately, it still "hides" when starting a New session, in that, the standard templates hide the "New Track" and only show the [+] (at least on my 30" screen). My inclination as a newby would be Right-Click, which is certainly intuitive in my mind. I would probably miss the [+], assuming its function had something to do with the Now Time clock. I probably would have moved the "Custom" pull-down, or shrunk its default width so the "New Track" label would show immediately. That would make it very obvious. LANDRI'm in a agreement that LANDR would serve to "test" a mix. I typically mix with a 'test' Mastering chain in place that I can kick in at times to verify my work (I'm not one of those who buys that a mixing engineer can't Master his own work), so I can support that it will be useful to many who try it out. I can certainly see how this might help some people who wish to see how their work would sound if submitted to a real Mastering house. I would also invite users to try a plug-in called, Magic A/B. You can do what some Mastering pros do, including Dave Pensado to compare (A/B) his work to existing reference material. I'm a bit skeptical having to sign up for a service, like we did with Gobbler, then possibly having that later ripped out of Sonar, and it's a bit of a downer not to hear the work in real-time, but having some version choices after submitting a mix seems pretty handy. It does a pretty good job for projects and mastered demos, but I wouldn't recommend using this in lieu of a real Mastering job.
post edited by brconflict - 2016/02/23 23:51:39
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: SONAR Newburyport now available
2016/02/24 00:09:49
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chriswickens
Wow that mastering thing sounds neat except you have to pay extra for it. If this keeps up I'll be dumping Sonar. I don't need to pay to get bloatware.
You didn't pay for bloatware. The only thing you "paid" for was the time it took for Cakewalk's developers to include direct file export in SONAR, which is trivial compared to the cost of adding actual features to the program. Amortize that over the entire SONAR user base, and you paid essentially nothing to have that feature included. This isn't like a VST plug-in where Cakewalk pays a licensing fee and passes along the extremely reduced cost on to users; LANDR makes its money by selling its own service, not by charging companies like Cakewalk. As far as "bloatware" is concerned, the entire LANDR package is 100MB. If you never plan to use it, you can uinstall it.
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