Ah yes, those who sit back and take whatever they are given, the company knows best. So whats the problem? This - I bought Sonar X2 Producer upgrade from X1 Exp for $60.00, when I upgraded to X3e Producer, Sonar gave me a $50.00 discount rendering the effective price I paid for X2 Producer to $10.00US, I paid $75.00 for X3e producer, total expense  $125.00US.  Your way 2 upgrades x 199.00 = $398.00US. SEE THE DIFFERENCE!  Smart shopping and going after what U want pays off in real dollars I saved $274.00US. I'm not made of money so I drive a hard bargain. With this new program we get to pay $199.00US/year forever, oh, until they raise it.
 
WiLLi & MMX3P

willif is raising a point worth discussing.
 
It's NOT about the cost/value of THIS upgrade or whether AD2 is any good or not. It's how the membership model will evolve.
 
CW has historically bundled classes of 3rd party products with each major release of Sonar such as amp sims (Revalver, NI Guitar Rig, Overloud TH2) and maybe now it's drum packs (AD1, AD2, ...?) These and other packages (i.e. BT bundle, AAS, etc.) can be effective for attracting new users. Forum comments often tout the value of the upgrade as a "no-brainer" in terms of the market price of the bundled 3rd party offerings.
 
I expect this strategy is a reflection of market demographics. The current reality and state of the industry consists of a much larger number of potential customers for CW with lower experience sets and susceptibility to GAS and meticulously modeled myths of "vintage" gear. More is better, right? The marketing theme is pretty consistent across all vendors.
 
The point is the value of generating upgrade/membership purchases with this strategy. How many different drum packs do you really need?
 
Prevailing experience recommends buying the best possible instance of a tool that you -need- (not want) and learn it inside out until you can apply that knowledge in a meaningful way. It's more productive to drive the gear you know like a pro than hoard a grab bag of knobs and meters (or pixels/presets as the case may be). Something like drum software represents a considerable investment to use effectively and while there are many options, IMHO it's better to know one really well.
 
Given that premise, the perceived value of a Sonar upgrade/membership will depend less and less on redundant 3rd party bundles. CW strikes me as understanding the market dynamics and that maintaining status quo (i.e. simply bundling yet another clutch of 3rd party light versions) is not going to be the way forward.
 
So how will the membership model will evolve? I would find value in the following categories.

1. Core - Defined as "proprietary DAW features and capability" not developed and marketed elsewhere by 3rd parties. (I.e. ProChannel, VocalSync, audio engine, Skylight interface, ARA integration, etc.)
2. Services - Great question! and one many companies struggle to define, but a classic model for a residual revenue stream.
3. Special offers (i.e. membership pricing on 3rd party bundles).

.....
 
As a long time Sonar customer, I place greater value on "core" features and improvements than 3rd party bundles. It's worth noting that we don't actually know what CW pays for AD, if anything. Perhaps AD is paying CW. 
 
Hoping the discussion finds it's way to what would be valuable as opposed to what's not.

Different people have different needs.
 
Someone who is new to the world of DAWs and doesn't have a big collection of plug-ins and instruments sees the bundled add-ons as tremendous value. They receive drums, plug-ins, synths...you name it. Write a check, get a studio. You could easily make a case that these add-ons are worth $199 to someone.
 
A veteran SONAR user sees value in additions to the core program with features like VocalSync, Mix Recall, etc. etc. etc. You could easily make a case that all the core program enhancements are worth $199 (but of course, if you pay $149 now you also get enhancements and content throughout the coming year).
 
So Cakewalk's tactic is very simple: Provide much more value than the cost of the upgrade so that even if someone doesn't use half of it, what they do use still provides considerable value.
 
A good analogy is Native Instruments' Komplete. It probably has a lot of content, processors, and maybe even instruments that people don't use (although different people will use different parts of it). But if you were to buy only what you did use separately, it would equal or likely exceed the cost of Komplete. So you just buy Komplete, get everything, use what you want, and still come out ahead.
 
Don't forget that content is a part of the membership program as well. I just finished 375 MB of R&B bass loops from Public Enemy's Brian Hardgroove for the Membership program. Will everyone use them? No. Does everyone want them? No. Will some people find them extraordinarily musical and useful? Yes. Will some people who thought they would never use them end up using them? Yes. These may or may not be the same people who find my collection of pad loops (which stretch from 50 to 500 BPM without artifacts) useful.
 
The doomsday scenarios seem to assume Cakewalk doesn't want to stay in business. I can assure everyone that Cakewalk very much wants to stay in business, and they've decided the way to do that is to provide so much cool stuff over the course of a year that people will want to renew for another year.
 
As I've said before, the burden is not on users to renew. It's on Cakewalk to provide something that causes people to renew. 
 
 
 
 

Anderton
These may or may not be the same people who find my collection of pad loops (which stretch from 50 to 500 BPM without artifacts) useful.
 

There are pad loops?  Cool - where do I find these?  Seriously - I could use these. 
 
(point made I guess)

so in 2016, you dont like what they are putting out, you dont buy it, where's the problem? you still have the latestversion from the end of this membership which lets face it aint exactly in dire need of an upgrade, maybe you could spend 200 dollars on the addition that you DO want instead.

mixmkr
I want R&B bass loops now....!!  now....!  NOW!!!     (phew, glad I'm a member)  ;-D

I'm submitting them for the February update, so while that's not "now," it's a lot closer than "sometime." Doing the final QA on them tonight. The loops are in both WAV and REX formats.
 
 

kitekrazy1
 I prefer midi loops.

you can then use Melodyne to converrt, but using MIDI would defeat the purpose of getting specific bass sounds, drum sounds, etc...   Although most drum programs use MIDI loops in their libraries, because they also supply the sounds...but typically not on pre produced loops.

Anderton
They're not done yet. Probably the March or April update.

Looking forward to it
 
 
BTW - been checking out your Environment Generators - very cool!  I can definitely fine use for these

No offence Craig but I hope that the extra membership content isn't going to be 12 months of presets and loops. I want some real substance updates and features to the core Sonar product.

After a life time of music I've got more loops, MIDI and Audio, samples than I'll ever be able to demo let alone use.

I too agree.  "Meat" not "fluff".    Many will like all the loops, presets but not all of us.  Program fixes and improvements are the "meat" of what updates should be.

 
 

fireberd
I too agree.  "Meat" not "fluff".    Many will like all the loops, presets but not all of us.  

 
+1
 
"Quality, not quantity". 
 
As a 'serious' music producer who takes my art seriously, loops are not how i come-up with a listenable world-class song according to me (lucky i steer my own ship).
A loop here, a loop there, maybe, and only for a small part of the break-down in the song, and only if the loop is usable to begin with and well recorded, but i find that too many pre-done loops have already been processed to all hell, and there's not much room for more custom mixing/processing without it sounding overly stepped-on, feel me? So why would i bother?
Any EDM producer worth his salt doesn't use loops, the others who do are cop-out wannbies, they aren't producers, they're try-hard kiddies with kiddies toys putting-out kiddy childish monotonous sound. They give EDM a bad name.
There are good and bad examples of any genre of music, whether Country&Western or Rock or Blues or R&B or Pop or House or trap or whatever, but you don't create a good example of any music by using loops, that's for sure. The more 'unprocessed' a loop is the better, assuming it's ever needed or called-on for service in the first place. I don't need a loop that's already got 2 cents worth of fuddy-duddy compression and EQ all over it. Raw and ready, that's what we need, let us do our own processing in the mix.
 
My friend phoned me tonight and told me how he has 80,000 songs downloaded, and then he said they are all in MP3 high-quality 192mbps; LOL, this world needs help, who is responsible for this mess? This younger generation hasn't got a clue, i feel sorry for them. On hearing him say that i laughed at him, and said "You gotta be kidding me, bro, are you for real?"
 
There is a great value DAW out there (which i wont name), but the sounds bundled with it are compressed Ogg Vorbis, and i simply refuse to buy into such a DAW on principle alone. And after a big row with the developers and trying to appeal to their better judgment, i couldn't get them to budge. Some people just don't get it. This world worries me. Ignorant apathy and stupidity abounds, no wonder that DAW can't capture a respectable slice of the market, they just refuse to wake-up to themselves.
 
 
 

jackson white
It's NOT about the cost/value of THIS upgrade or whether AD2 is any good or not. It's how the membership model will evolve.
 

1. Core - Defined as "proprietary DAW features and capability" not developed and marketed elsewhere by 3rd parties. 
2. I place greater value on "core" features and improvements than 3rd party bundles. It's worth noting that we don't actually know what CW pays for AD, if anything. Perhaps AD is paying CW. 

 

 
Indeed!
 
The benefit of Cubase and Logic Pro X is that they don't resort to third-party add-ons, and that's what i find appealing. How many issues have users of Sonar ran into with these included third-party add-ons? Not to mention the registration hassles and separate accounts etc. What a pain in the ass! I just wanna make music, not fuss-around with all these other requirements!
 
If one takes a closer look at Logic Pro X, it has a 'multitude' of brand spanking new high-quality Acoustic Drumkits included, easily on-par with Addictive Drums, no need for registration or separate accounts.
Logic pro X has built-in proprietary vocal pitch-correction easily on-par with Melodyne, no need for registration or serial numbers or separate accounts or separate installation, feel me? It's all messy, messy, messy. That's the impression.
Logic Pro X has it's own custom Software Amps etc easily on-par with any third-party offerings.
If one takes a closer look at Logic Pro X, it has 'all' it's own plugins and sounds plus high-quality Reverb, no need for dicking-around with third-party accounts, and all installed in one go, that's how it should be! Streamlined and fuss-free, and everything installed in one go with nothing more to worry about. This would be a much better approach. I hate third-party add-ons when it comes to associated accounts and registration and serial numbers etc. If it wasn't for Apples rip-off strategy with their hardware, i would not hesitate to jump onboard and use Logic Pro X without looking back. The third-party products that come with Sonar and the associated hassles are the only thing keeping me from diving-in unreservedly. IMO Cakewalk need to find a way to go proprietary with everything. As it stands, let's be honest, from where i'm standing Sonar is a great DAW, but it does have the appearance of a DAW with a messy slew of Motley-crew add-ons; not a good look really. Just sayin.
 
Cakewalk doing deals with these companies is not helpful to us users, how can it be? I wish Cakewalk would arrange for these companies to simply license the algos and include the product as a standard in-house proprietary product so that we don't have to mess-around, one-step installation with no hiccups.
 
Tracktion is a $59 DAW, and yet it comes with Melodyne Essential and full ARA integration, so what gives?
 
The quality of the third-party stuff in Sonar is good, yes, and we want it, yes, but please Cakewalk, find a way to include these as in-house Sonar native, that way we wont have the extra hassle of various accounts and serial numbers and separate installations etc, i beg of you.
 
Anyway, on the other matter, why would i want loops when we would be better-off with a drum-machine full of high-quality samples so i can create my own so-called loops? That would be much more useful and appropriate. Cakewalk using these other cheap easy loops to garner a false sense of value from the users and potential buyers, pleeeeeeease, leave it out, don't need it. EDM DRUM-MACHINE THANKYOU VERY MUCH!! Packed full of uncompressed, UNPROCESSED high-quality 24bit samples...
 
And do't start beating on me, i like Sonar very much, it's got heart and character and is very competent, but so what, it's still got some blemishes, and needs some renovations. I like my mum too, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have foibles or shortcomings.

 

Drone7
 
 

fireberd
I too agree.  "Meat" not "fluff".    Many will like all the loops, presets but not all of us.  

 
+1
 
"Quality, not quantity". 
 
As a 'serious' music producer
 

 
Nice post and I see your points. I do not like the separate registration hoops I have to remember to jump through for upgrades/installs. I agree with you whole heartily on that point.
 
I can only take your word for how well Logic's offerings compete with 3rd party. All I can say is I used and really liked Logic from the E-Magic Atari years up to the end of the Logic PC version at I think 5.51. Still have the dongle and software. As far as that goes, Cakewalk's own session drummer and studio drums are usable with a few minor tweaks. But they don't compete shoulder to shoulder with AD IMO.
 
Anyway, you sound like a cool dude. 
 
 
 

Cakewalk is in a rather unique position as one of the earliest PC-only music softwares.  The others were cross-OS or mac.  And from the people here and out in the non-virtual world most SONAR users - a plurality if not majority, seem to be guitarists.  Singer songwriters or rock and rollers.  SSW's are easy to cater to - they just need a glorified tape machine to record.  Rocker need a little more than that - since drum machines have replaced most live drums.  It takes a lot of money to do drums live right or some serious engineering chops and a bit of luck.  So it ain't surprising that Cake offers good drum programs.  You and I might not need it because we do music w/o percussion or use real drums or, more likely, have favored drum replacement software.  But a lot of Cake users just want some decent sounds to jam over and don't want to spend as much as they did on their DAW for drums (or synths, for that matter).
 
A lot of musicians want to be authentic - banish the thought of using some one else's loops, or even sounds.  Others relish the thought of having world-class musicians and studios on their humble home productions.  Cakewalk needs to cater to them, too.  Hence all the midi/audio loops (Cake was the first DAW if you skip Acid, I believe, that incorporated audio stretching).  Although EDM and unintelligent Dance Music practitioners (sorry Trance etc.) don't make up the majority of users, there are still plenty that do use CAKE and appreciate the starting points (Thanks Craig for keeping that updated!).  About the only users Cake hasn't thrown many bones to lately are the notation crowd, so I try to shut up when they act disappointed the latest version includes no notation upgrades.  I hope Cake does, though I doubt that will shut them up until Cake matches Forte etc.  Gotta love them boys (and girls!) though. 
 
If you can imagine the musician, Cake, being PC-only, has to at least consider their concerns (and yes, being the Established PC-only software is a lot more egalitarian than MAC, since a proportion of users just get into music on a lark since they have a PC or their parents do).
 
I personally hope Cake continues to appeal to this bigger audience.  That keeps prices down (if you believe in capitalism) and provides the most quantity of tools, too.  I find the PC effects and Overloud toys and a bunch of other stuff up there with any other 3rd party software which saves me enough money to buy that which isn't included.  It is a great deal and I'll even put up w/ Cake upgrading notation software I won't use and even if I have to buy that weepable wavetable synth to fill out my collection of synth types.  A good trade off for the quality and quantity I do get. 
 
@

One more thing about loops...and then I'll shut up. 
 
Like pitch correction, loops can be a victim of their own success. When used properly, you can't tell loops are being used so they don't get credit. There are accomplished, human drummers who have heard my music and are 100% convinced that I'm using a real drummer...but they're loops.
 
I'd be the first to agree there are a lot of crap loops out there. But I won't stop going to restaurants because McDonald's exists  

Anderton
 
Loops serve two purposes. First, really good loops can be inspirational. While going through Brian's loop there were several that just begged me to wrap a song around them. Also, if you're familiar with what I do, you'll know I like to add interesting twists. For each of his main loops, I cut the notes and re-arranged them to create variations with the same timbre and note selection. Having these variations available makes the loops come alive compared to just having the same thing play over and over and over and over. Brian approved all the changes, in fact he thought they were great. 
 

Craig, reading your comments on loops (which I haven't used in quite some time) has got me interested in them. Are these loops available in the current Platinum version (what you've described above (which Brian approved))?  
 
(During the installation, I only recall seeing the Loopmaster and other loop based stuff that was included in X3).