Beepster


Also PRV is great for a lot of things but it is a huge hassle compared to proper notation scoring. If you know what you are doing on the staff tonally you can get stuff done WAY more easily than with PRV. The PRV, IMO, would then be used for adjusting dynamics and more intricate editing of not length (as figuring out note duration is actually more complicated in notation than PRV). Just some thoughts.

i thought the prv was the answer to the drw back in time it took to score all your parts.
have you used the prv beepster?
if you havent then this may be an unfairstatment your making saying staff view is so much easier,if thats indeed what your saying.

For what it is worth. I would like to have the same editing tools in the staff view as in the PRV including control over SNAP.  I do not need to export scores I just want to have the tools to compose in the view I understand.  PRV is fine for percussion.

Elffin


Theres been a huge investment in pro tools in colleges and schools ever since the integrated Sibelius..  Some of these future users will continue to use protools as their weapon of choice.

since cakewalk omitted traditional notation symbols in favour of 'half , quarter note etc.. 'they just lost out on an order for at least 20 copies at school. Wonder how many other schools rejected it too.. I know of lots of schools who still use Logic for pc.. Which is over a decade old .. Why? Notation.
The market exists - good companies spot the opportunities... 

The fixes needed are small and possible..
Bring back notation symbols please...
Add tied triplet please.
If possible - Cakewalk have got drum maps function which could be developed into articulations key switches for sample libraries... 

Simples!

YES!  +1   Last January I was asked to teach a class at a college in a Masters program.  The students were at a very high level and what where they all required to work with???  
 
Logic and Sibelius. 
 
2 reasons,  
Apple Computers and  Notation.    

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions there Jimbo. On reflection, I should support the campaign for better functionality within staff view. At the end of the day, Sonar, for me, has been about flexibility and choices...

@chuck... Hi, dude. How are, ya?
I have indeed used the PRV and I am certainly not ragging on it. I will be using it quite often for multiple reasons, one of which is although I understand notation these days I am not as proficient as I'd like to be. Also PRV would be my go to for tweaking note lengths and volume/articulation. But that does not negate the usefulness of the notation staff (and that point actually doesn't have anything to do with Sonar or any other program. It is just the nature of the staff itself).
I'm not sure how in depth you understand notation or general theory principles (and it doesn't matter because I'm of the mindset that if it works for you then do it) but you must appreciate at the least how much screen space using the Staff View saves as well as enabling a smoother workflow because the notes are grouped more tightly together. Look at it this way.
In PRV all twelve chromatic notes are displayed stacked on top of each other. That is twelve separate lines of data just to achieve one octave. With the notation staff immediately you are cutting out five of those lines because instead of displaying all of the non sharp/flat notes we use key signatures and accidentals to represent those tones. Furthermore we are using the spaces AND lines to put our notes on as opposed to a space for every letter note. That makes it so we are using 4 spaces to achieve the same amount of tones the PRV needs 12 spaces to display. So that is one way the staff is more efficient.

Now probably the most important and beneficial reason to use the staff are key signatures and the concept of consecutive letter note names. Each key has 7 unique notes. These notes follow alphabetical order and no note is repeated or omitted. As you know each line and space on the staff represents one of these letter name notes in order. In C which has no sharps or flats you can easily just hum a bar and write it down on the staff if you are familiar with the steps/intervals of the key. Want a different key? Simply toss a key signature on the staff and use the appropriate letter note as your starting point. There is no guess work and you don't even have to have the specific note names memorized for every key. In PRV you do have to know that stuff or work through trial and error (unless you are a proficient keyboard player and have the key forms memorized I guess). Also in PRV the notes don't go consecutively right after another. You have to account for the spaces between each step of the scale which are sometimes there and sometimes not and that can make inputting (IMO) more difficult and cumbersome than on the staff.

There are a ton of other reasons like easily constructing and expressing chords, inversions, transposition, etc... but the above are a couple of the more useful characteristics of the notation staff. When it comes down to it it's just another tool but an extremely powerful one and it is the universally agreed upon language of music. It just makes sense to have it running as well as possible which from the sounds of things it is not. I've used the SV a couple of times so far for simple stuff and it works but it is certainly quirky and not very intuitive. I could see it becoming a real problem if I started getting a little more ambitious which is most definitely going to be happening... and soon.

Anyway, hopefully that clears up my views and probably some of the views of the folks who have been wanting an improvement as well. It really is hard to grasp how much easier notation can be compared to other input methods without fully understanding it. I think that's why we get this constant back and forth on the topic around here. It would be like if Cakewalk decided to let the PRV languish and become unusable for anything pro and instead put all the attention on the staff and then users who'd never used or understood the PRV dismissing those complaining. That would anger a lot of people and for good reason I think.

As I said though to me it's not a deal breaker and I'm certainly not bent out of shape about it but it sure would be nice to have a top notch notation input option. Hope that all makes sense. Cheers.

Okay Beep... s'good to know I hadn't annoyed you... it's not what I'm here for, athough it is sometimes inevitable that I'll cheese someone off from time to time.

Regarding the humanizing tools within Sonar/Cakewalk... I've never used them, and I prefer to give my MIDI tracks the personal touch, when I think it needs it. A bit long winded,  I know, and perhaps I should try to learn how to get the best out of those tools one day.

One thing is for sure... None of the Cakewalk peeps have commented in this post, whereas they have posted in some of the other X2 topics. So, either they are avoiding the issue because the SV is the same as it ever was, or... they are sworn to secrecy and they have a big surprise awaiting with a much enhanced scoring tool coming.........

@synkrotron... Aw, dude. I've found you to be extremely pleasant and a joy to talk to. I couldn't see anyone getting ruffled about anything you post. I on the other hand have gotten a couple of people hot under the collar but I can be a little spastic at times. Heh. As far as the Cakesters not commenting on this I'm assuming it's because they don't have anything cooking in regards to the SV. Frankly considering the abuse those poor guys take every time they show up, even when it's good news, I don't blame them for not chiming in.

konradh


@Elffin, What do you mean by traditional notation v half note, quarter note, etc.? Doesn't traditional notation use normal note values? I am obviously misunderstanding what you are saying. Thanks.

Sorry for that .. I meant not value icons  - rhythm symbols... 

For those wondering if Cakewalk staff were going to reply to this thread - i very much doubt... 

Cakewalk remind me of my wife when it comes to shopping ...I ask, ask and ask but she never listens 

never asked for shrimp.. Just wanted my steak 'well done'  !

Tell us again how to get Guitar Rig 5 for $79 !!

The adults ?? You spend a lousy couple of hundred dollars on software and think you're a big spender ?? You think you're such a big shot you're demanding answers ??
 
Up yours you jack azz !!!

djwayne


Sonar is what it is. Expecting something more and crying about it is like going to a restaurant ordering a steak then complaining because it doesn't come with shrimp too.

Bad analogy...it's more like going to a steak house that you've been to many times, ordering steak and being told they improved everything on the menue, but the steak is not as good anymore.

Please you newcomers, do a search on this topic. It has been begged for and the topic beat to death for many years. Threats, comparisons, boycotts, etc, have all been broached. True integrated scoring is not going to happen.....Just accept it or move on /

no its not "just" a conversation... it is a valid request, but it is a dead horse . You are relativity new Beep, and I know you from " downstairs" , but just an FYI, this topic has become heated, mean spirited, confrontational, people left this forum over it..it is one of the hot buttons,,, just a friendly FYI... PS I would love to see integration, but I use a 3rd party scoring program, (the one cakewalk sold) for my scoring.. No problem brother beepster,, rock on

And like I said I'm not overly concerned about it. Just thought maybe I'd toss some ideas out there for the Bakers. If they made it an add on they could make some dough and put the debate to rest. I'd be inclined to buy it. Cheers.