synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 12:10:39
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.
post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:11:55
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trimph1
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 13:19:10
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What is really funny is that if the bakers wanted to they could have just left out staff view entirely...but they did not ..for how many versions of Sonar?
If you don't need it, fine. Let those who would like some improvements to what appears to be seen by some as an appendix have a say here....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 13:41:31
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stevec
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:09:44
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Yeah, I don't get DJ's vehement objection to SV enhancements. Unless one uses every single feature of SONAR, one is always "paying" for features that they don't and may never use. That's just the reality of software development in general.
Personally I do think CW should fix/improve what's already there in the SV, just like any other view or feature - nothing should be permanently excluded. However, if that means a rewrite at some level and a good chunk of time, then I can accept that it would have to be balanced with everything else on the development schedule... which is always a system of tradeoffs.
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:24:25
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I don't object to SV enhancements, I object to people bashing Sonar because of it. I object to a boycott of Sonar to force the issue.
I'm not gonna bash Cakewalk over notation. They have a fine product and provide great bang for the buck software. If you're not happy with it, too bad. There's probaly no pleasing some people no matter what you do.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:31:58
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John
djwayne
The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.
Where did you get that idea from?
It seems to trend in the opposite way. Let me see if I recall Sonar 1 XL had very few things in common with X1 as far as features. It didn't even support VST or ASIO. No audio snap. No making on the fly buses, meaning to add a buss one had to restart Sonar. The feature list in Sonar X1 would overwhelm Sonar 1 XL. Yet the price has gone down drastically both for upgrades and for new purchases. This is a fact. You have no evidence to support your position.
It seems by any measure you are more than just wrong in your assessment but obtusely wrong.
Making things up is no way to persuade others to your view point. All it does is destroy your credibility.
"Making things up is no way to persuade others to your view point." I gather by this statement you don't watch fauxe (fox) or any news networks (fox is the worst for it though). It's sad to say that this is the norm for what people believe.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:36:29
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He really does come across as someone who watches Fox, doesn't he? lulz...
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:36:39
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Who's bashing Sonar over the SV?
We are saying that we would like them to improve it! How is that bashing?
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:38:13
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Go on, keep having your notation tantrums.... next week it'll be something else you'll have tantrums about....wah, wah , wah......
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:41:46
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@Guitarpima... Check out the Pro Tools vs. Sonar thread. He is unhinged. Just ignore him. Seriously he'll start freaking out if you question his logic. I also find it amusing that he'll defend a large corporation but treat all of us individuals like garbage. Fox news indeed.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:41:55
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The only thing I'm having a tantrum about is why I can't use Sonar to find fish while fishing. Wah wah wah. I want to find the fish! Wah wah wah!!!
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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Brando
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:42:23
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djwayne
I don't object to SV enhancements, I object to people bashing Sonar because of it. I object to a boycott of Sonar to force the issue.
I'm not gonna bash Cakewalk over notation. They have a fine product and provide great bang for the buck software. If you're not happy with it, too bad. There's probaly no pleasing some people no matter what you do.
I see where you are coming from, and I cringed when I saw the call for a "boycott" too. I am not going to boycott cake/SONAR either. Hell no. I love X1, but I am still looking forward to X2. I really want them to improve the staff view though.
Brando
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 14:46:59
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Yes I'm looking foraward to X2 also, can't wait to get it, I'll take whatever improvents are there. I'm just not gonna come on the forum and wah wah wah whine about anything in particular.
Hey Beepster, GFYS. Nevermind, you already did.
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markno999
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 15:21:30
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Interesting thread. I think the real question for Cake to ask themselves, from a purely business perspective, isn't how many current users would benefit from notation but how many new users they would attract. It is no secret that when programs are used in grade schools, high schools or colleges, in many cases those programs develop a loyal user base. People are naturally attracted to familiarity so someone using Product X in college is probably going to keep using it later.
It seems that several people have made the point that educators are not choosing Sonar due to lack of notation capabilities or acceptable integration with industry leaders. If Cake increases their user base then everyone benefits because Cake has a bigger user base and more development funds to continue improvements to the product. There was a company called Autocad that this strategy worked very well for. It seems to me that everyone is a winner in that case.,,whether you personally need notation or not...... Cake certainly know how to do this, they have the Staff View for one, and several years ago they spun off and sold their notation software (I think it is called Geniesoft)
Now back to Bill O'Reilly;)
Regards
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Michael Five
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 15:36:51
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Beepster
I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 16:10:12
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@Michael Five... Interesting. Maybe Cakewalk could contract Avid to develop a Staff View add on. jk... ;-p
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ProjectM
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 16:43:17
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Michael Five
Beepster
I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...
AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version. You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on. I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.
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Michael Five
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 16:58:51
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djwayne
The more things you demand from Sonar, the higher the price will be.
The more people Sonar supplies with a satisfactory DAW, the lower the price will be.
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ltb
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 17:20:24
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ProjectM
Michael Five
Beepster
I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...
AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version.
You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on.
I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.
Enjoyed the video. This would be a very welcome add on for myself. I've used Sonars' notation over the years & it's fine for a quick scratch chart. Always have to hand edit it afterwards though, wish it handled transcribing better.
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 17:24:21
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Have fun with your boycott, as for me I'm buying X2 as soon as it becomes available.
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ProjectM
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 17:36:48
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carl
ProjectM
Michael Five
Beepster
I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
PT guys told me last week that Avid had bought Sibelius and integrated into Protools, or were working on it, it was unclear. We were at the coffee shop...
AFAIK When Avid bought Sibelius they eventually took some of the code into PT version 8 which is an absolutely stunning feature. BUT, it's not the full version of Sibelius embedded in PT, it's a very cut down version but the Pro Tools notation view runs in circles around Sonar's Staff View. No wonder, Sibelius made it! But Avid still wants to sell Sibelius to Pro Tools users so it's a cut down version.
You can see the notation view in this video and it's pretty sweet. I'm good with using Sibelius next to Sonar but it would be cool to have something simmilar in Sonar as well, either built in or as an add on.
I actually really like the Add on idea. A third party company specializing in notation could make it.
Enjoyed the video.
This would be a very welcome add on for myself.
I've used Sonars' notation over the years & it's fine for a quick scratch chart.
Always have to hand edit it afterwards though, wish it handled transcribing better.
Same here. So I guess I'm in the camp that want better Staff View. But, it's no show stopper for me. I'm thinking that with Sonar's excellent feature set and brilliant sound design and composing features, a proper notation feature would make it a BRUTAL tool for composers as well. Especially for those who compose with musical training and create a finished product. And of course for those who need to print simple scores. Well, I'm not on the fence waiting for it. But one can dream can't he  I'm still looking forward to see what/if they've done to it in X2. I already thought it was an improvement to work with it in X1
(Sonar Platinum - Win10 x64) - iMac and 13" MacBook - Logic Pro X ++ - UA Apollo Twin DUO - NI Maschine MKII - NI Komplete Kontrol S61 - Novation Nocturne - KRK Rokit 6 SoundcloudNegative Vibe Records
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 17:44:08
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That PT notation looks awesome. The real time transcribing part was crazy. I'm curious, and maybe some of you Sibelus users can fill me in... will Sibelus control synths within X1? Does it work well?
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Michael Five
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 18:17:25
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Beepster
That PT notation looks awesome. The real time transcribing part was crazy. I'm curious, and maybe some of you Sibelus users can fill me in... will Sibelus control synths within X1? Does it work well?
I'm speculating (now that my sanity has returned), but I'd guess you can get midi out of Sibelius and use that to drive sonar synths...
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/05 20:11:10
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I export my Finale files as midi and then use Sonar to open them. You have to use the "open with" command by right clicking on the midi file so all the information contained in the midi file remains intact. If you import the midi file, you'll lose some of it such as the tempo, markers and any other data.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 03:02:57
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:12:36
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LpMike75
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 03:36:58
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I used to post in these "improve staff view" threads, then I realized these threads have been going on for several versions with no real improvement from Cake. I gave up and bought Sibelius, which I eventually needed for what I do anyhow.
I went to one of those "meet a rep" events and spoke with a Cake employee. I pointed out to him, if Cake improved their notation they could market Sonar to the ever increasing, "composer" crowd. Currently, it would seem Logic and Cubase has much of that "crowd". The Cake rep explained that was "not their target audience."
This was 2 years ago, maybe things have changed? I don't know, but with the bad notation and horrible video format support, I have to conclude he was telling me the truth. I really like Sonar, (much more than ProTools) so I bought Sibelius for Notation (great choice!) and Vegas for video (was needed anyhow) and use Sonar as my favorite DAW software.
One day, we will have a Vegas/Sibelius/Sonar type program all in one, but its not today. SV improvements would still make my job easier and alot of us happy, but the writing has been on the wall version after version, Cake is not going to update it anytime soon. Sometimes it's better to accept the loss and find a different way to get the job done.
I tell you, whichever company makes the Notation/DAW/Video program is going to put a big dent in the market. Considering the power of todays computers, I don't think the all-in-one program is too far off.
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Benny Bear
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 04:58:24
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Count me in for staff view improvements, please.
It seems to me that it is one of the few areas that hasn't been improved, bar a few menu rearrangements.
I see arguments for people saying that not enough Sonar users use staff view and so wouldn't be economically viable. How about attracting new users on the back of a comprehensive staff view? Economic sense? A possibility.
Just my thoughts.
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 08:10:55
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:13:06
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John
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 08:27:40
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synkrotron
Benny Bear
How about attracting new users on the back of a comprehensive staff view? Economic sense?
Surely this would depend on how much Cakewalk would charge for improved staff view functionality. As I said a few posts above, if Sibelius can charge £460 for something that is primarily "just" a scoring package, how much more would Sonar cost in order to implement the same? They certainly would be able to afford to keep the costs within what they charge at the moment, and it would have to be an additional feature.
Sonar X2 Composer Suite
Which is still probably not a bad idea. Cakewalk would then have to determine how much take-up of such a product would be.
If, as some have tried to suggest here, Cakewalk/Roland only want to target recording engineers, mixers, mastering peeps, bedroom composers, and not include professional composers who feel they require proper classical notation, then it just isn't going to happen.
I would be surprised if Cakewalk/Roland haven't researched this in quite some detail. They must have some kind of idea on how many will ditch their DAW in favour of an all singing, all dancing scoring/recording/mastering DAW?
Why do you say CW will charge extra for something that is already included?
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trimph1
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 08:53:39
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What is with this extra charging stuff?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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