LpMike75
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/29 19:24:09
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Anderton
LpMike75
Using both X3 and PT 11 HD, my opinion is, if you are writing or creating music, X3 wins. With all the included plug ins, effects and synths, I would rather mix in X3. However, if doing any kind of post production or audio editing, Pro Tools is on a different level than X3 and is almost a 'no brainer'. So it all depends on what you are doing.
I agree with your post for one big reason - format compatibility. But if I was spotting for TV and audio-for-video was my bread and butter, these days I'd choose DP over PT.
But you're right...I'd still create music in Sonar 
Craig - Ignoring format compatibility for a moment, the big problem I have with Sonar is the lack of navigation, snapping, cutting keybinds. You just cant navigate and edit as fast in Sonar as you can in Pro Tools, due to lack options. There is the "snap to landmark" function in Sonar which is a little helpful and on the right track, but still not in the ballpark of where you need to be for fast post or editing work. In addition, the file management in ProTools is superior. Pro Tools you have the option of pulling files and saving files in several locations in one project, which is really helpful when getting files from other people on a harddrive and only wanting to return the "new" files in your collaboration. I have put in feature requests to the bakers for some of these options, which could make Sonar a viable option in Indie post productions. Which would be awesome, given that you don't need Sonar "HD" to get surround busses :)
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TomHelvey
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/29 19:45:06
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My Eleven rack came with PT10, I remember having to download their expansion pack to be able to edit the effects properly on the Eleven. Every time I started PT, I looked at it and realized that I was going to have to deal with learning a new interface without all the tools I had gathered over the years with Sonar. I decided that I would rather spend my time working on music than learning another DAW, technically they both do the same thing but I know where most things are in Sonar.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 00:07:55
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TomHelvey
My Eleven rack came with PT10, I remember having to download their expansion pack to be able to edit the effects properly on the Eleven. Every time I started PT, I looked at it and realized that I was going to have to deal with learning a new interface without all the tools I had gathered over the years with Sonar. I decided that I would rather spend my time working on music than learning another DAW, technically they both do the same thing but I know where most things are in Sonar.
You can use Eleven as an ASIO interface with Sonar - here's a step-by-step article about how to do this. You won't be able to edit Eleven in anything other than Pro Tools (or use the front panel), but you can always just boot into Pro Tools, do your editing, then return to Sonar.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 00:11:06
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LpMike75
I have put in feature requests to the bakers for some of these options, which could make Sonar a viable option in Indie post productions. Which would be awesome, given that you don't need Sonar "HD" to get surround busses :)
AFAIK Sonar isn't planning an emphasis on post-production, although the increased video support seems to indicate some movement in that direction. Digital Performer (which is excellent for post) has had little luck dislodging Pro Tools in the Windows world, and I don't think Sonar would find the task any easier. But agree 100% with your HD comment
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VigilantSound
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 00:19:52
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Sanderxpanda: You say hits have been made on every DAW out there? It would be interesting to see a few examples.. I realize that a "hit" is subjective but I would consider anything that has went gold to be a hit or even winning an Grammy. I think audio for video games wouldn't count unless it had an actual music hit our sound track. I know that Ricky Martin's living la Vito loco was said to be the first track mixed completely ITB in Pro Tools and become a "hit" Ableton has skrillex who has won a Grammy.. (edit- auto spell doesn't like ableton) I googled hits recorded with pro tools and also hits recorded in sonar but didn't find much. Can anyone verify any "hits" made Sonar or any other DAW? )
post edited by VigilantSound - 2014/01/30 10:12:27
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mudgel
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 00:19:57
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vladasyn
Thank you for all your replies. Sounds like I do not really need the PT. It just that we have to install it somewhere for him to learn it and get to use it. This computer has audio interface connected along with all other keyboards and tools. If we install it on 2 other computers in the room, they are not connected to anything. I do have former M-Audio (now AVID- they kept this interface when sold M-Audio) Ultra 8R USB interface, but they only have Windows 7 drivers, no Windows 8, not sure it would work with Win 8.1...
I started using recording software at my keyboard- Yamaha Motif. I did not have typing keyboard next to me. Now I spend more time at my desk because I use small controller and soft synths a lot. I have no problem with interface- so far everything is on the monitor to click. I never need shortcuts. And then if I was using shortcuts- what would I do when I record/edit at my Motif?
I can not tell which plugins are 32 bits. Some of them say so, some of them not saying anything. I also noted that some soft synths repeat themselves in Audio FX menu. I am not sure if it is because plugin has effects built in and it offers me to use those plugins (such as Maschine or Kontact) or if it just repeats itself. I do not see 224 plugins- this is what Sonar's plugin manager says after it scans. Many plugins came from Komplete 9 Ultimate- I would not uninstall those. I have extensive collection of software synths- not the free versions but paid once. It makes no sense that PT would not read VST- it defeats the purpose of having my collection if I can not use it with PT.I
The plugins from Komplete 9 Ultimate come in RTAS and AAX format for older and current versions of PT. Most vst plugins also have their RTAS and AAX equivalent. The multiple versions like Kontakt in the VST lists are for stereo, 8 outputs and 16 outputs.
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mettelus
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 00:55:34
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VigilantSound
Sanderxpanda: You say hits have been made on every DAW out there? It would be interesting to see a few examples..
I realize that a "hit" is subjective but I would consider anything that has went gold to be a hit or even winning an Grammy. I think audio for video games wouldn't count unless it had an actual music hit our sound track.
I am not sure throwing around "hit" even carries that much weight, since much of that is marketing, hype, etc. as well. I think the bigger point is can a DAW make an decently accurate rendering of audio information as desired by the user, and for most DAWs this is true. Conversely, one can record "crap" in any DAW just as easily.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 06:42:26
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I have no opinion on the quality of any hit songs for the sake of this discussion. I'm merely saying you can deliver "pro" quality sound quality needed for mass distribution working from any DAW.
Call Me Maybe was done using Reason. Afrojack (worked with Neyo and a host of others) uses Fruityloops most of the time. JR Totem who has produced tons of hits for major artists prefers Sonar over ProTools. Caro Emerald's album "The Shocking Miss Emerald" was done entirely in Reaper. Dunno how big she is in the US, she's big in Holland and the UK and they claim it was a "world-wide best seller". You already mentioned Skrillex.
I don't think I really need to "prove" Logic or Cubase, do I?
I didn't research this, it's just what I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more out there. Point being, your production and mixing qualities are affected a lot more by your personal limitations than by the sound processing of the DAW you're using.
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VigilantSound
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 10:05:08
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Call me maybe was done in reason! That's awesome! Anybody else know any major releases that where recorded in sonar? I'd love to know if any rock bands were tracked in Sonar? For the record I've always believed in engineer/producer over gear, not just DAWs but everything in my opinion... Maybe I should start a new thread for this...
post edited by VigilantSound - 2014/01/30 10:15:09
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jscomposer
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 11:32:48
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I don't know of any pro level engineers pumping out major label stuff with Sonar, but in the film industry, everything Hans Zimmer does comes straight out of Cubase. And as baffling as it sounds, James Horner used Pro Tools to score Avatar (which as probably the worst MIDI features!!).
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 11:39:20
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JR Totem at least. Not sure about others.
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 12:02:39
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jscomposer
I don't know of any pro level engineers pumping out major label stuff with Sonar
Well, I'm no star name or anything, but engineering and production is what I do for a living, and I've got stuff out on both Universal and Polydor, done in Sonar.
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 12:05:02
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As an aside, I've never dealt with anyone from a label, major or indie, who asks what software you use. It just doesn't come up. The artists are sometimes interested (and sometimes not).
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dubdisciple
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 12:08:00
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VigilantSound
Sanderxpanda: You say hits have been made on every DAW out there? It would be interesting to see a few examples..
I realize that a "hit" is subjective but I would consider anything that has went gold to be a hit or even winning an Grammy. I think audio for video games wouldn't count unless it had an actual music hit our sound track.
I know that Ricky Martin's living la Vito loco was said to be the first track mixed completely ITB in Pro Tools and become a "hit"
Ableton has skrillex who has won a Grammy.. (edit- auto spell doesn't like ableton)
I googled hits recorded with pro tools and also hits recorded in sonar but didn't find much.
Can anyone verify any "hits" made Sonar or any other DAW?
)
Dead Maus uses FL Studio. Southern style trap is made almost exclusively in FL studio too and much of that stuff is platinum selling. I think it's safe to say that hits have been made on most major DAWS at least at the tracking and composing level. Most of those trap songs end up in Pro Tools for final mixing and mastering.
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VigilantSound
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:19:05
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Still all that stuff is mostly electronic and sample based...
I'm really curios about rock music, ya know live drums tracked in Sonar,...
JohnT: Are any of your releases live tracked drums and guitars and such?
I also make a living strictly through music and production and mixing FOH... at my home studio I use Sonar pretty exclusively but in any of the more pro studios I work in its all pro tools, so if I bring it home to mix I usually keep it in PT..
I would still love to here an example of a billboard ranking track that was tracked live with Sonar! There has to be someone on here who has done it!!
Or anyone on this forum have a Grammy? That would be cool too...
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:26:11
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I've no idea, myself. I'll tell you what, there are tens of thousands of records made in ProTools that weren't hits and didn't win Grammys.
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:28:54
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The question doesn't really make sense to me, I have to say. I mean, tracking in Sonar and tracking in anything else are exactly the same. Whatever comes in through the mics and the outboard goes down to the hard drive as uncompressed audio data.
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:32:30
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VigilantSound
JohnT: Are any of your releases live tracked drums and guitars and such?
Sorry, missed this question somehow. Yes, though only indie label stuff so far. More accurately, I have a mobile recording rig, which isn't computer-based, and I track with that onto a Fostex DV2424LV. Sometimes overdubs are done later in Sonar. And the mixing is done in Sonar. When I say "mobile" I don't mean a live recording thing. I've got a thing going where I go and record bands in interesting non-studio places, and I've got a couple of boxes of stuff that turn a room into a temporary studio.
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Splat 
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:35:14
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I know something I did that was a worldwide hit done on Cakewalk 3.01 (I now know approximately the Cakewalk version number thanks to recent posts and screenshots) but if I told you for who or what it was I might never hear the end of it (those were the days when you didn't have to reset your plugins as you didn't have any). It was just used as a synth pad with MIDI clock in this instance. In my day the hits were churned out on 2".
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bapu
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:43:17
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Splat
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 13:45:25
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 15:39:27
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Beyond illustrating that succesful productions can be done on any platform I don't really, either. And I definitely don't see how it matters if the drums were tracked live or not.
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 21:19:21
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Hmm. What do you mean? There's a difference between live and programmed drums. Depending on what you're trying to achieve, this can be a profound difference. I'm not sure I grasp your point.
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mudgel
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/30 23:14:00
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Any accolades I've received for my work has never been attributed to the tools I use. The tools are just that, not an end in itself.
As John says, sometimes an artist might ask what equipment you're using but I've never been asked to work on a project because of the tools I use. They are not an end in themselves. I get work based on my reputation which I acquired on the basis of my results or my willingness to get the results the client wants.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/31 03:19:12
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John T
Hmm. What do you mean? There's a difference between live and programmed drums. Depending on what you're trying to achieve, this can be a profound difference. I'm not sure I grasp your point.
I mean that I don't see how there would be a difference in sound quality/handling, which is what this thread started about.
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brconflict
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/31 15:29:59
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/02/01 02:12:51
I couldn't help but chime in on this one, since I JUST finished a trial of PT11. Here's my personal take:
PT is analogous to Photoshop from Adobe. It's like the Kingpin of the DAW's and very widely used in studios world-wide as well as many thousands of home studios. Adobe products are similar here. However, there's one major, and I mean MAJOR flaw to such a tool. Being one of the first, if not the first full-fledged DAW on the market, and developed on a Mac, it's not easy to evolve it. After the pro's become efficient with its workflow, Avid would be making a huge mistake if they suddenly changed it. Undoubtedly, the code it's written on must be old, because it's not the most efficient use of resources, and you'd be hard-pressed to simply re-write the old engine.
I believe, from my trials, PT is one of the most non-intuitive DAW's on the market, but why does it still succeed? It's Grossly key-stroke laden, to the point of multiple maps you can switch to. Users very quick with key-strokes rarely ever need a mouse. They work much faster than a mouse can afford them, using keys, so this provision must remain the norm. ProTools scalability is vast, considering all the hardware it can seamlessly integrate, giving you more than 150 channels with little to no latency. The power is there, but what about the evolution? Seriously, when I see an installer in 2013 that pops open several MS-DOS prompts, I'm holding the software in contempt. That is a red-flag and dead-giveaway that this code has been converted, and not naturally written for Windows.
Speaking of mice, PT isn't savvy with Right-click like other DAW's. I believe this was largely because Mac's of the last decade were single-button mice. I also believe that in all Steve Job's wisdom we have a Photoshop that is still, to this day relatively non-intuitive, catering only to professionals who have training.
My opinion of PT is that it's trapped and on life-support. It will be so difficult to change it drastically for the times, and the company's HQ as you can see with lack of direct contact are not interested in feedback from everyday users. If you are going into the industry and will absolutely be required to know ProTools, learn it and pay dearly for it. I'm sure it's ROCK SOLID after all these years of working out kinks, but my money is staying with Cakewalk, since it is far easier to use for me, and many studios are apparently providing Producers with their choice of DAW, vs. only supporting PT.
One last comment. Avid is on my $**tlist because of RTAS/AAX. I pay WUP to Waves to get the latest updates when they become available. Since PT users demanded AAX from Waves, and Waves had to respond, Avid requires AAX for PT11. They don't offer RTAS support in PT11. Their workaround is the archaic, give them a free license for PT10. I'm sorry but that's an amateur's band-aid for a problem created by themselves---and I had to pay for it through WUP. So, I have a beef with Avid for that one.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/31 18:20:07
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Just cause you remarked on scalability - as I said earlier in this thread, my friend was actually asked to come engineer Logic at an event where they ran 192 channels at 96KHz, which ProTools miserably failed at coping with.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/31 18:34:42
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Sanderxpander
Just cause you remarked on scalability - as I said earlier in this thread, my friend was actually asked to come engineer Logic at an event where they ran 192 channels at 96KHz, which ProTools miserably failed at coping with.
The only reason this happened is because Pro Tools was not configured properly and did not have the right hardware installed. I have seen PT handle 700 stereo tracks at once. It is actually one area where PT really excels and that is in huge track counts. But sayin that I agree with brconflict for most of his post. To be honest Studio One is far more intuitive than PT will ever be. I agree after doing a PT teaching course too that it relies too heavily on key strokes. Far too many of them to remember. Hold this while you hold that (Powerclaw!) Some of them need three fingers down as modifiers.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/01/31 19:17:11
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I think that's my thing about PT. I find the design of it kind of clunky, and I thus don't have any serious fluency with it. Realistically, I think UI design is the primary point of competition and difference between DAWs.They all process the same raw digital audio through extremely similar processes. An audio track running through plug ins X Y and Z, is measurably the same in all DAWs.
Usability-wise, I like Sonar, Studio One and Ableton Live the most. They make complete sense to me, and I can almost always figure out how to do new things quickly. Don't get along with Cubase at all, never have, and find Logic hard to love. ProTools comes somewhere in the middle. This is all very subjective though.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools
2014/02/01 03:12:46
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I wasn't there, all I know is they used a big Mac with SSDs and RME based MADI.
I thought 192 was a lot, when would you ever record 700 stereo tracks at once??
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