Helpful ReplySonar v/ Protools

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vladasyn
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2014/01/24 00:13:11 (permalink)

Sonar v/ Protools

Hey there
Not trying to make a provocative post, just need your personal opinion. My partner brought ProTools 10 to the studio. I can install it on the main  computer but I only have 50 Gb of disk space left. If it was any other DAW, I would want to install it for the VST plug ins, but PT does not read or offer VST. I am not seriously considering to switch, just want to know if it even worth of the consideration. It is 32 bits- we would have to upgrade it to PT 11 to make it 64 bit. I would also have to install all plugins I have in PT format. Which would adversely affect the disk space. But everybody using ProTools has such a great confidence that they indeed using professional software. Is there any advantage in using PT over Sonar PX3? Thank you.

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#1
SuperG
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 01:43:08 (permalink)
Is there any advantage in using PT over Sonar PX3? 
 
Not if you have 50gigs left.
 
There's no need for it unless you have some firm requirements to work on Protools project files...

Uh-oh. You've got that, "I want to beat the fat little man" look in your eyes. 
#2
vladasyn
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 02:12:13 (permalink)
Well- it needs 20 Gb. The hard drive can be cloned- theoretically- I do not believe in it but in theory- it can be done- if it worth the trouble...

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cryophonik
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 02:21:50 (permalink)
Not a cheap solution, but you could buy Vienna Ensemble Pro (a subhost) to run 64-bit VSTs in PT10.

Edit: re-reading it, I may have misunderstood the question. I use both Sonar X3 and PT11 (and previously PT10). From a hard drive footprint perspective, I would think that Sonar would be a better option, as long as you don't install all the extra sample content (same goes for PT). It's a perfectly capable replacement for PT, albeit with a somewhat different workflow.
post edited by cryophonik - 2014/01/24 02:31:22

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 02:46:18 (permalink)
Cloning a C drive is possible and I have done it successfully. I had a C drive that was making a very bad sound but still working normally. It was only 80 Gig as well. I have two drives C and D drive. D drive being used for data.
 
I bought and used Acronis True Image (after extensive research on the subject) and I removed my D drive and installed a brand new 500G drive there. I then performed the clone except I did it in real time. Not using the image. What happens in this mode is the computer reboots but does not go into  Windows. It stops before going into Windows and the program runs and performs the clone bit by bit.
 
Then I removed the old C drive and put the cloned C drive (D) into the C position and put the D drive back. Everything worked perfectly. Except I had to only reauthorise two things. One was my Wavestation VST and the other was Studio One. For some reason they were the only two things that new what had happened. I had to use an extra license for Studio One (you get 5) but they offered to give it back to me.
 
Everything else worked as normal and was none the wiser. You need to do something similar. You are running out of space and I was too and the thought of rebuilding my C drive was just too much. It would have taken a week. This only took an hour or so.
 
You have got nothing to loose by doing this because your C drive is still OK and could be put back in if it did not work for any reason.

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 04:43:04 (permalink)
If you do work for others a lot I would just install it for compatibility sake. "Yeah, I got ProTools"
 
EDIT:
Interestingly, my friend was asked the other day to engineer/record using Logic at a large venue concert hall here in Holland (Ahoy), where they ran a loop of 192 channels at 24 bit 96KHz (tv and radio and whatever could plugin using MADI at any point).
"Pro"Tools couldn't cope with it at all, just kept glitching and freezing, hence why they called him because their main engineer wasn't comfortable enough around Logic to risk running it himself.
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markyzno
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 05:33:36 (permalink)
As far as I can tell from experience, the only thing that PT 10 is better at than Sonar is reading OMF's and AAFs. Plus as the above Post suggests, its good for compatibility.

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CakeAlexS
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/24 17:04:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/01/24 18:22:46
Pro tools is just another tool like sonar. I like pro tools I wish I was using it more often. I like steak, but I also like chips and mushy peas. Occasionally chicken is nice.... Occasionally I get food poisoning....

Alex

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Sidroe
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 09:42:14 (permalink)
When I first started working in digital audio Pro Tools was KING! There are still times that someone off the street thinks that everything recorded in computers is called Pro Tools. You just had to have it to be legit.
Thankfully, those days are not completely gone but they are waning away. Word is getting around about these other tools out there. The first time I was trained on Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, I walked away saying to myself to watch out for that company. They really seemed to be on to something. Now I look at my own setups and I see Sonar 8.5 up to X3d. There have been some stumbling blocks here and there but I have always felt that Cake was on to the right thing.
Today, Pro Tools is not the necessity it used to be. I have not used Pro Tools in a long time and do not miss it.

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mettelus
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 09:59:03 (permalink)
I happened across this video a while ago where a user wrote into a guy and asked if he should switch from SONAR to PT. If you listen at 3:25 he makes a comment of having a friend in the Philippines who only uses SONAR and does "phenomenal work because he know the tool well." I think that is the ultimate point, especially when limited on time (as you say you are)... you can risk becoming "Jack of all trades, master of none." The comments to that video are also an interesting read.
 
Sidroe dropped a sage piece of advice to that effect a couple of months ago, which was basically "pick a DAW and learn it." They all are capable and have their own up/down sides. There is no substitute to dedicating the time to master the tools you have.
 
As a guitar player, I have seen (and stated) this numerous times... many new players buy an expensive guitar thinking they can "suddenly play" which is disheartening to see. The proficiency of the user counts orders of magnitude above any tool they are using.

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CJaysMusic
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 11:18:27 (permalink)
Look at it like this. There both Hammers. One hammer has an orange handle and the other hammer has a blue handle. Both can hammer nails the same exact way.
 
One will not record tracks better and one will not mix songs better. (Just select the hammer you like the best)
 
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CakeAlexS
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 11:53:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/01/25 19:29:34
Either way you will get hammered!

Alex

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konradh
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 16:58:55 (permalink)
Perhaps from the current version forward things will be better, but PT has a history of both hardware and file compatibility problems after new releases.

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#13
Vab
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 17:41:09 (permalink)
PT 11 = £549

Sonar X3 Producer & Melodyne Editor & Addictive Keys = £350 and loads of tutorial videos plus this forum.

That the only difference I see.

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gswitz
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 17:46:20 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
Either way you will get hammered!


Lol

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CakeAlexS
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 17:49:22 (permalink)
If Cake included a compressor, gate, limiter and reverb that looked as good and worked as well as the quadcurve, which had a pullout x/y graph, worked as vst3 and on pro channel, dumped all legacy plugins, revised and modernised the menus so it was slick, and got all its bugs fixed that would be enough to sell x4 in buckets IMHO.

Alex

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#16
cclarry
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 19:23:35 (permalink)
I've cloned several C drives without issue...

The major advantage to PT is it is in more Studio's, Pro and otherwise, then Sonar will ever be...
 
That being said...I hate it...the only reason it is considered the "Industry Standard" is that it got 
a foothold years ago, and has the HD option, which is hardware based, making it far more usable in a 
Studio environment.  Actually, Cubase is in more Studios worldwide, but PT is the Standard here.
(Not going to argue that point - as many will want to)

Now to brass tacks...if you're looking for an awesome workflow and user experience...X3 hands down.
That's MY opinion.  I use them all, and for me X3's workflow and interface are Tres Excelant!

The others will have some better features, but nothing that you really can't live without or replicate in
another way (except Cubase's VST Expression).  X3 doesn't have the best Score Editing either - by
far.


X3 also contains more instruments and plugins then any other program I know of, making it a 
great value.  It would have been better had they not put so much 3rd party content that they
had to raise the price (again IMHO) but if Cakes wants to shoot themselves in the foot, who
am I to stop them?

PT 11 now has the AAX format for plugins, which everyone seems to be adapting to, making what
you currently use as VST's available to PT 11 users...

Bottom line....USE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU....try them...figure out what "feels right" for you
and buy it and learn it.

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#17
chuckebaby
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 20:05:20 (permalink)
I look at it this way, the time spent learning new feature on a new DAW can be spent learning more about sonar and the different features it provides that you don't know as much about.
sometimes I find something in sonar and I say OMG, I never realized I could do that.
its just another thing that I didn't realize was like a little gem hidden,
#18
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 20:23:17 (permalink)
I like much of Sonar's bundled stuff but I'm not sure you could say it comes with more than any other DAW. Perhaps if you count the dry number of fx plugins but many of those are really really out of date. They could be useful in a pinch but the quality of freely available VSTs is at least as good. If you count the number of "premium" or "currently relevant" VSTs, Sonar sure makes a decent effort, but Logic does at least as well, and I don't Cubase or Live are very far behind.

I like how Sonar makes deals with quality third party developers, but bundling the BlueTubes is undercut by not making them available outside of Sonar (same as with a bunch of other fx). I guess this isn't different from other DAWs but it COULD have been a real plus to Sonar and it's not, currently.
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joden
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 20:53:34 (permalink)
cclarry
...................Actually, Cubase is in more Studios worldwide, but PT is the Standard here.
(Not going to argue that point - as many will want to).................
.

and you know this because??? No argument as I am not saying it isn't so, but where does this "fact" come from?
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mudgel
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 21:12:19 (permalink)
Surly we'd have to understand that 3rd party plugins are licensed as per mutual agreements.

Let's face it, we don't often get a fully operational and complete plugin but we do get some. This time Addictive Drums and Melodyne Essential. All in all the value is exceptional. I think Sonar is the goods even without any 3rd part extras.

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John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 21:13:28 (permalink)
I've got PT 10 installed side by side with Sonar on my music computer. It's pretty good, you know. It's ProTools. You can do great stuff with it. I can't see how it's any better than any other major DAW though. I don't use it a lot.

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#22
mudgel
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 22:20:02 (permalink)
I got PT 9HD for compatibility, and because it was Fi ally released from its hardware dependence.

I've got to say that it's very deep in project management. With the HD version you also get Complete Toolbox 2. It sure is very comprehensive.

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#23
John T
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 22:27:07 (permalink)
joden
cclarry
...................Actually, Cubase is in more Studios worldwide, but PT is the Standard here.
(Not going to argue that point - as many will want to).................
.

and you know this because??? No argument as I am not saying it isn't so, but where does this "fact" come from?


Mm, yeah, hard data would be good. But it wouldn't surprise me. Certainly, in an area that I know well, in the games industry in Europe, Cubase is the absolute standard. Nobody ever even mentions ProTools in that context.

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#24
vladasyn
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/25 23:15:49 (permalink)
Thank you for your replies. Strangely- part of my post is missing- will have to re-write what I was saying:
 
I was asking if PrpTools is any better in recording sound quality. Many believe that not only hardware but software itself play a role in recording quality. And that this is why major releases sound better because they recorded with ProTools. Does it come with any "Tools" that actually more "Pro" than what we get with Sonar- such as Reverbs, compressors, EQs and so on? How about the workflow? I have been acused of being slow by my partner- he uses the keyboard shortcuts, I use graphical interface and the mouse for everything. He says- it takes me forever to do things in Sonar and I am not sure if it is me, my using of the mouse or Sonar workflow to blame. Certain things are frustrating in Sonar, such as no "Undo/Redo button. Also- to start recording we need to insert new track, then set MIDI or Audio Inputs/Outputs. In Logic, for example you can do it by double- clicking on the empty space- it inserts new track already wired. If you ever want to enter any number value in Sinar, such as the level of Resonance inside of the plugin and you type "345", suddenly whole Sonar view changes, plugins getting closed, and measures getting zooned out. It is frustrating. Have you tried to use plugins menu going up? You click on them 2 times, on 3rd time it does "Minimize" and resizes Sonar Windows and plugins menu closes. So I was wondering if Protools is better in that sense.
 
The problem with SSD is their price- for 500 Gb I would need to pay $400-500. And then if clone not working- it would be a problem. My plugins count in Sonar is 224 now- I am afraid- they would get confused with clone and not able to find their libraries or such. So I am not sure if I would go for cloning, also I may have to do it in the near future. Took me less than a year to fell 200 Gb of 250 Gb drive with just OS, Sonar and Soft Synths- not even libraries- have most of the libraries on another drive.
 
Another option to get ProTool on my system could be dual boot. If it has to be installed on the drive with OS, then- I can probably install Windows 8 on another drive, install PT and when I need it- go trough the BIOS and boot from that drive. I used to consider dual boot with Mac OS but my motherboard is not compatible. But I can try to find another SATA port for ProTools. Again- would it make my music any better or my workflow any faster? Thank you.
 
post edited by vladasyn - 2014/01/25 23:23:35

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#25
CakeAlexS
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/26 04:04:43 (permalink)
"Many believe that not only hardware but software itself play a role in recording quality."

When it comes to software absolute bollocks... :) What will help your sound quality with software is knowing how to use your software and I strongly recommend tutorals and videos such as groove3 for this. If you don't adopt the best technique to use a compressor or EQ or Gate, or your mic is placed differently, or your aren't spotting the obvious shortfalls (which takes training) then your mix will be different, probably not a "pro" sound. It ain't what you use it's the way that you use it, that's what gets results. Tools are tools.

BTW if you have 224 plugins I suggest you need to look at getting rid of some. Less is more. Time is best spent getting to know or understand a few select plugins really well. Start by seeing if you really need the 32 bit plugins.

Also knowledge goes a long way, there are various shortcuts to your frustrations, and these are best learnt with tutorials. Shortcut key are your friend, maybe you should also look into track templates.

It ain't the capabilities of your software it's your capabilities. I suggest pick one DAW and learn it inside out. Two DAWs are a waste of your time right now. Avoid collecting software,learn it and use it.

Cheers...
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/01/26 04:19:44

Alex

X3E Producer (64 bit),Win 7 Ultimate (64 bit),Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 (Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Dell Studio XPS 8100 (Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz / 12 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B. NI Maschine Studio + Komplete 9 Ultimate + Kontrol Z1. Addictive Keys, Izotope Nectar elements, Overloud Bundle, Geist. Acronis True Image 2014.
 
 
 
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#26
markyzno
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/26 05:35:32 (permalink)
vladasyn
Thank you for your replies. Strangely- part of my post is missing- will have to re-write what I was saying:
 
I was asking if PrpTools is any better in recording sound quality.
 
 Again- would it make my music any better or my workflow any faster? Thank you.
 




 
Nope, no difference.

If anything PT slows you down as SO SO Many of the cool functions needed are shortcuts and you need to learn them....a PT dedicated keyboard with all the shortcuts comes in handy for this.

Sonar Producer X1d, X2a, X3E 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 8.1 Standard 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > Korg Kaoss Pad > Emu E6400 Ultra > Yamaha Pro 1 > A whole bunch of softs as well but that would be too ridiculous to list
#27
Peter Morrison
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/26 05:52:59 (permalink)
I am using Pro Tools 11 along with Sonar X3. I started with Pro Tools 9 and upgraded, as I have with Sonar. I wouldn't put any DAW in a 50 Gb space, That's not enough head room for me. The difference with uprgading Pro Tools, you have to uninstall the version you are using before you can install the upgrade. That's no big deal. I am not really up to speed yet with Pro Tools and I am finding latency using Drumagog, but that's probably something I am doing wrong.
I have being using Sonar since the old Cakewalk 7 from way back when and upgrading/dating ever since. It's so easy to use and is my main DAW. 
I live in the UK and work with my musical partner in Canada and he uses Pro Tools. Since Pro Tools came to Windows, it's opened a lot of DAWS (Pardon the pun) doors.

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#28
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/26 06:32:23 (permalink)
There are possible differences in sound quality, e.g. summing isn't handled the same way by all DAWs, not all DAWs are sample accurate (Sonar is), etc.
All that is quite separate from whether the included fx are any good. Generally you'll want to expand on the included fx with your 3rd party favorites anyway.

However, the differences in sound between DAWs are so minute that it makes a far, far greater difference who is sitting behind the computer. Hits have been produced on every DAW available. So don't get ProTools on that account. I can see your colleague's point about being slow if you do everything with the mouse though. ProTools can be very quick if you're proficient with it but there is no reason to handicap yourself in Sonar by using just the mouse and GUI.

If I were you I would at the very least learn to use the shortcut keys for zooming, basic navigation, splitting clips, and hiding/showing dock, inspector and browsing. Even just using those will speed you up immensely.
#29
Jlien X
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Re: Sonar v/ Protools 2014/01/26 08:13:35 (permalink)
I want not-too-wide/narrow mixer channel strips like those in PT or DP.

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Audio/MIDI: Quad-Capture (interface), A-800PRO (keyboard controller)
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#30
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