Sanderxpander
I wasn't there, all I know is they used a big Mac with SSDs and RME based MADI.
I thought 192 was a lot, when would you ever record 700 stereo tracks at once??

Movie soundtracks. Lord of the Rings had something like 750 audio tracks. They used to use 3 PT systems all synced up because of the 250 track limit but now they can do it all on one machine because the limit is now 768 tracks.

Yeah I think things get pretty busy in a big movie soundtrack. 250 tracks each for music, dialogue and effects. There would rarely be everything playing at once, they like to put lots of things on their own tracks.
 
The effects tracks could get pretty busy. (large battle scenes for example) Lots of dialogue stuff too. And music, well could be lots of cues residing on many track just waiting their turn.
 
I agree for us mere mortals those sort of track numbers are a bit hard to comprehend. PT can handle it all though I believe. Some of the track counts get pretty large even on some larger music productions.
 
I thnk we have gone a bit mad these days with track numbers considering in the 60's they were doing it with just four.
 
When I studied my Jazz degree many years ago I was always very surprised how much sound just 3 or 4 musicians could make when they had to. Massive wall of sound coming from a very small number of people.
 
I try and keep track counts right down rather than just pile them up.

VigilantSound
Sanderxpanda: You say hits have been made on every DAW out there? It would be interesting to see a few examples..
 
I realize that a "hit" is subjective but I would consider anything that has went gold to be a hit or even winning an Grammy. I think audio for video games wouldn't count unless it had an actual music hit our sound track.
 
I know that Ricky Martin's living la Vito loco was said to be the first track mixed completely ITB in Pro Tools and become a "hit"
 
Ableton has skrillex who has won a Grammy.. (edit- auto spell doesn't like ableton)
 
I googled hits recorded with pro tools and also hits recorded in sonar but didn't find much.
 
Can anyone verify any "hits" made Sonar or any other DAW?
 )

 That's because Pro Tools is a mastering app. You're wrong if you think Skillrex spit their directly from Ableton to CD.  If you are under a major label, you produce your music in whatever DAW of choice and then it gets sent to the guys who get paid to master tracks and they are either using Nuendo or Pro Tools.
 
 

Hello all.
 
Oh Yah..some say...."We have to feed the cash Cows, who are making un-standard standards standard"...and play along with their offerings of "sacrifice" onto us to conform to Pay and Pray, for the time being....amen?..or change them un-standards saying "Industry standard" """Pro""" to sleeping sheep, and feed the grass with a few dandelions for the bitter truths posted on their forums!....opps another change some may need to have as backup plan X?....     LOL....As to be Professional...is to be in part Perfect at what it/they is/are suppose to do.
Now that is reliant on many Factors, and the users of it...and then some standard or measure used to judge it by, that should never change.
 
If it does not perform perfectly ...then it is not PERFECT, and thus cannot be PROFFESSIONAL.
if it does, then it is....and there is no wiggle room in that regard.
 
So where have there been issues?...OS, Hardware, Software, plug ins,...and all have this issue, if upon those issues it is built or reliant on each other for rendering out that product of Perfect in standards...as all things keep changing with one or the other or all involved in to make one work towards!
 
So where is the PROFFESSIONAL in PRO as in PERFECTNESS in being ?....there is none!...at this time line.
All have bugs, all have issues, all are in a state of change continually moving the shell around to make more dosh end up in the till!
 
And with that noted...the next update is coming always!...So where is the standard standards in that?
 
And as such it cannot be called PROFESSIONAL anything!...cause it is never PERFECT!...as yet to be announced by any of them claiming to be PRO...eh?
 
So feed which ever camp floats your boat...but remember always there will be holes to plug!...and cash to spend on fixing, updating, and eventually finishing what you wanted to do....in some form of almost if to a standard of...perfection!=measure of standard that does not change...as it should be perfect in someones IDEAL that should be taken for all, if it applies to all..in all for all...(and even that is changing)..MP3?....oh well..
 
That is for the mind melding of Truth to be Truth about it...on PC or Mac based systems...at this time line always under change...and reliant on Gear/OS, that seems to be in a state of flux and change continually...and the consumers or cash givers...also having change being imposed by technologies changing choices availible.
 
Just saying....if the standards are based on un-standard standards, or constant change (no standards) ..then how can it claim to be perfect or professional if these factors are at its base line construct?
 
I Guess once they make it perfect...it should stay the same!= standard...cause there is nothing better than Perfect.
 
So...they may claim, and toot, and such in PRO meaning something...But if it is changing all the time (and we see it is)...then they are no better in regards to Perfect, if it remains to be updated, and upgraded continually with Issue with all of the variables in a state of change continually... towards hopefully a standard of perfection one day?..or never to keep the flow of cash comin in....I think is the underlying method of, in some circles.
 
And they all have them bugs in play....So, again what ever floats the boat to the other shore, ...is in some case Standardized by the consumer...not the industry.
 
It is the consumer who feeds the cash cow...marketing is the means/ploy to gain the herders  hand in supplying that food in certain directions of Cow feeding...
 
Asking which one is better?...only fuels that direction towards one or the others...or all.. depending on who wants to have fun taking sides in the debate, and who wants to pull out hair using.....
 
 
And I made nothing known that is not already known, but unsaid.
 
PT  and Sonar are ok to do what needs to be done, that can be done with them...and then there are others that do other things ..and some should consider having at hand, when the need arises, that those cannot do....
 
Mastering is with the plug ins!!, and a employed standard baseline used by Industry....some DAWs include mastering plug ins, some do not...some are better than others at employing and rendering a standard towards the industry's mark of...and so the wheel in sky keeps on turning...the one spinning the wheel is the one who is making the un-standard standards be, so more pay out of pocket to try to make that standard be a standard...But even that is changing....mp3?...well it is not moving towards hi fi or above...sort of took a turn backwards for a moment.
 
So where is this industry standard level of perfection in terms of MP3 being widely promoted by Apple, and technology in play back medium?..in terms of fidelity?...and what new standard is coming?
 
Even the industry could change...and where would PT put their claim in being?....again change is not a standard of Perfection...
 
So that whole notion of being the industry standard is a farce!
 
Sip.
Sir Les
 
 
 
 
 
 

Nowadays professional means audiophile, at least in forums that feature non professionals.
Marketing has sorted that one out :).
 
If anybody has iplayer (mainly UK) I suggest watching Sound City, it's probably been on a US network as well etc:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03sltyb
 
That's the real mentality to make music (get a skillset, tools are just tools)...

joden

cclarry
...................Actually, Cubase is in more Studios worldwide, but PT is the Standard here.
(Not going to argue that point - as many will want to).................
.

and you know this because??? No argument as I am not saying it isn't so, but where does this "fact" come from?

surely the fact that many studios run Macs? esp here in Europe Logic and Cubase are run in many studios. 

I think people tend to disconnect PRO from Professional in many discussions, but the truth is that Profession etymology dictates that a Professional has been formally trained for a publicly declared vocation. In other words, if the person is open for business and is highly trained or highly skilled, he's a Pro. So, in essence, what tools he uses are tools a Pro use, or a Pro tool. However, we tend to assign Pro to a product, only because it is assumed that if the Pro uses that product, he will use the most complete or "pro" version(s).
 
I've made a suggestion before that I believe Sonar X Professional should be developed to better compete with the likes of ProTools, taking out any frivolous features, but it would assume we need a Mac version to duly compete, along with some hardware integration. For now, Professionals will use Producer version of Sonar, and make some money at it. Some studios are building workstations loaded with different DAW's so that clients aren't locked into using ProTools. Knowing this last little tid-bit, one could say using Sonar could easily be used by Pro's if they see that the software is easier to use, and they can work faster--or that's simply the DAW they know.  

I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Sorry to help bring this thread so far off topic.

Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

 
Well I didn't stand on the corner of the street for too long ;)
 

Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Sorry all that is a corruption of what a profession or professional is. It is one that professes. One that has letters. How you decide if someone is a professional is why they are hired. Anyone that is hired for there lettered knowledge is a professional. Everyone else is in a trade. That includes musicians. Skills do not make a professional. A typist has skills but is not and never will be a professional. Basically it is if they are asked for advice.  Its their advice that makes a professional. A teacher a doctor a lawyer are professionals. Athletes are in either an advocation or a trade.  Priests are in an advocation. So are nuns.
 
What you list is the popular view and it is useless as a determination. Its saying anyone that is hired is a professional. We know that is untrue. That would make an unskilled laborer the same as a professor of history, equally professional. 

John

Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Sorry all that is a corruption of what a profession or professional is. It is one that professes. One that has letters. How you decide if someone is a professional is why they are hired. Anyone that is hired for there lettered knowledge is a professional. Everyone else is in a trade. That includes musicians. Skills do not make a professional. A typist has skills but is not and never will be a professional. Basically it is if they are asked for advice.  Its their advice that makes a professional. A teacher a doctor a lawyer are professionals. Athletes are in either an advocation or a trade.  Priests are in an advocation. So are nuns.
 
What you list is the popular view and it is useless as a determination. Its saying anyone that is hired is a professional. We know that is untrue. That would make an unskilled laborer the same as a professor of history, equally professional. 

 
What? A typist who types correctly, and consistently over time, in some manner of Standard (lingo, method, resolve) at some speed...becomes a professional typist....and Piano Player who studies music theory, employs the methods and laws correctly always...and plays and makes music becomes a musician, and over time, with no error found in that performance or performances done...is granted status of Professional Pianist....and with that knowledge of those trades under their belts, can pass on the knowledge to others...as teachers.
 
So I am not sure how a professional becomes one, if it is impossible to be one...by learning and persisting in perfecting that ...in regards to Professional being what they claim that word to be in terms of dictionary meaning..it is one who fully and confidently can do the trade of choice correctly and always done so, over every employment.
 
Now Fine Arts theory and mastery ~ PT and Avid, Cubase, Roland, and other name brands..ect... surely helped bring the industry to what it may be, and could be, and perhaps should be...but Like some have said, Avid closed their eyes, and made things exclusive to their methods to lock down the users to high costs, and problematic change....and sometimes closing the door on other ideas that may bare riper fruit...or better methods...or more stable platforms...to make a standard standard always a standard used..and measure...and fare...then the laws, and teaching can begin once mastered in those methods, tools and ideals which makes that one or many Professionals in terms of.
 
If standards are always changing, and things with in that state are also in a state of change, No one can claim to be Professional under that muse, as that statement would be false, as the known standards for that under Industry has not yet been defined as such...in standards used, or to be used, or in line to change for what can be....SO the teacher has to be taught...which makes that state weak in terms of his or her or the standard change to non professional, because there is always something lacking Perfection, or knowledge of...a standard method...if it has not reached its perfection, and stands as such always....it is not standard in so much as to say, it is used, but not always....and as this industry needs change to fuel its Fat cow method...change has to occur....and that is what is now being imposed...I see 4k video, needs a partner in audio fidelity....TV, Space technologies/ to broadcasting...it all has to change, to accommodate the new...and it is big business...it has nothing to do with standards or industry really, that is the guise they use to make the cow fatter,and the masses continue to buy the new technologies....and we feed which cow we chose to feed..and which camp we chose to chose...the industry that holds the most versatile tools, and employs many types, to suite many needs...will gain more cliental....and that is a fact of Professional methods one could use to gain those hard to find feeders, and accolades in becoming Professional in method and form.
 
So in some regard, I own part of Avid's claims...and from one point in time, it did not work, I bought their devices for M Power, and setup a nice PC...which their techs could not tame under windows xp or 7...I bought the PT 9 with claims it worked with all audio devices, also had issues, and soon after I bought 9, they released 10 for more cash grabbing...which I did not buy into because I saw 64bit OSes being more the go to Platform method of practice and practical direction for future proofing the Studio...As I already know about change, one must ready for it...that things change always is now historical noted truth...and accept it as such, and prepare for it....to buy in when I feel the time is right (more perfected in platform and function stability to do so) or enough people claim it is solid enough a platform to engage in...cause I was there with Atari, PC win 95...and that was a nightmare...but I tried...I was there with win 95 a,b,c and Cubase..with the implementation of usb 1.1...and that was not so workable for me...I was there for win 98, se, Xp, sp1....and now win 7 64bit and 32 bit, and a hole host of DAWs to play with...I like Sony products, but they are falling behind..perhaps following the industry standard?...perhaps only to make sure the platform is stable before coding for it?...could be a means to save money?
 
Any way...All those wonderful toys...seem to work some what when one complies to certain rules of method and instructions to make it work.....follow the method, and it should work...if it does not work...well that is where the Murphy of my understanding becomes a professional recker of method....and a tool should be fabricated for that professional of mayham.
 
That said, in that, the professional methods used to make standards, or laws, or coded libraries, to make the software work with in a said environment "OS" needs it to be stable...and if it is in state of flux, no words can tell of it's merits as functioning in such a state of non perfection, as this becomes a unknown factor for Murphy to play on.
And this has to stop...I believe.
So Microsoft or someone else..Linux?...or Beos?...I have no clue who will, or when...but they will develop a OS Just for the Music Industry...So more Professional outcomes prevail with that method of accolades achieved rightfully in Standards met through solid methods. laws and priciples ,STANDARDS, which continue to be made for all by all who use the methods of fine arts and employ them properly, over many platforms that work, to the highest degree of..and even pushing new boundries.
 
SO someone who knows how to use all the tools, and then some, and even makes his own tools for those uncertain Problems of Murphy, which seem to be incorporated in,... so more cow feeding can be gained...should be accounted as more Professionals see the light, than the ones stuck in a rut trying to change standards to continue to sell a Dog to the cow feeders, and hold court with out vision of change now coming upon them to catch up to...should not hold court there in.
 
Which DAW is better?...PT VS SONAR?....I SAY they both have their merits and possibly their own Bugs...as being noted continually through out time with all DAWs and PC or MAC or other computer systems, that bases something on a untrue statement somewhere.....in the end, it will not work...and so some one has to correct that error or lie to make it stable...not build on it./,,,but I guess that is also a form of professional method that can be rewarding for a short period of time...if one wants to be futile in terms of supporting untruths and un-standards to gain wealth...soon the support or camps under it's wing, tend to fly elsewhere for more solid Performance, for less cost....as Truth should bring Perfection...Lies only bring ruin.
 
SO let the yes mean yes, and the no mean no..a word made known to mean what it says, stays that way.
 
 
And so the Question is posed..PT VS SONAR?...with the above statements made by me, I see a unstable future to pass through coming, until some genius comes up with a more robust answer to Computer Operational devices with OSes.
Or the ones now in play, solidify and correct the errors in the hardware, chipsets, code, firmware, or libraries being used in those computers....So the industry can flourish better for all who try taking up the DAW experience...which ever one, or as many, they chose to use, as long as they stay in that standard of truth circle, and provide a working product as claimed.....and there is nothing right or wrong with that...Yep... I bought PT 11, and then had to update it twice to make it work.
Reading in on the Avid forms, a lot of older hardware is being dropped...and plugs...and I guess a new direction is being formulated by Avid, and now Apple...will the industry be able to hold on while they make amendments to their code and product line, and certain industry methods of choice in PC or Mac?...or will someone else move in with a better product and support platform?...or has that already been happening?...is the industry really in charge of this industry, or is Avid?
 
Well...You play, you pay...you learn, you excel in knowledge.,,,open your eyes to see the lies and truths....perhaps knowledge in this helps one chose?...unless truth is a lie, and lies are truths...perhaps something to consider if standards are not.
 
 
 

It's really not: http://ahdictionary.com/w...ch.html?q=professional

This thread has took some odd turns. I've no idea what Les is on about either. I'm not sure he knows come to that.

A dictionary merely shows what the established meanings of a word within a language are. Sometimes it will indicate what the meaning used to be. You can call it a corruption and provide your "true" meaning but that's useless for communication.