I am gonna have to make separate tracks for each instrument I think with the library I am using

That's what most of us are having to do. If your synth has a GM orchestral percussion patch it should be able to handle the perc track as-is. Even then, I'd advise checking to see if your synth's GM perc patch offers a snare roll sample and move the pseudo-rolls up to it instead of using the machine-gun single snare hits in the MIDI file.

Most of the fancier samplers don't even offer a GM orchestral kit. Instead, they'll have a sample set called "Snares" and another separate set called "Tympani". This is where an intimate knowledge of your soft synth comes into play. It's often not a simple matter to translate percussion. Fortunately, our StarTrek file is very simple percussively so it shouldn't be too challenging.

for grins I loaded up ez drummer on the percussion tracks...

One of the first things I tried was hooking it up to Superior Drummer. That was fun. I think if you got some big room/reverb going it might sound like Bonham accompanying a symphony orchestra. Try routing the bass track to a heavy bass guitar patch run through a dirty amp sim. And while you're at it, have fun substituting each orchestral instrument with a Rapture patch that's kinda sorta similar-sounding. But don't send it to Randy - we're trying to stay focused on orchestration, hard though that may be.

rbowser


A FRIENDLY CHALLENGE -

There are some very active and knowledgeable members of this Forum who haven't yet responded to this neat thread Bitflipper started.  I know those members use Sonar, and have access to at least some soft synths that have orchestral patches in them.  SO---

I challenge these Forum members to take just a few hours away from their time on the Forum, and produce entries for this orchestral software comparison test. 

They shall remain nameless, but by initials, I challenge C., B., P. - and several others to simply set that posted .cwp file up in their Sonar, do a little editing, and let us hear some demos of the soft synths they use.  This is an invaluable resource being put together - but the larger the base of support, the more thorough and helpful the results will be.

Just do it - Take a little time off from the Forum, and produce something that will serve the Forum membership for a long time to come.

Randy B.

Just for the record, Randy, I did say I might struggle to find some time (though I want to); however, aside from Forum Time, I have been running around crazy getting ready to leave for vacation on Friday.  So for me at least, it's going to have to wait until I return.
 
I am definitely curious though :)
 
 

Yeh, what Randy said. Except it doesn't have to take hours. If you're using a sample library that you're already intimately familiar with, it should take less than an hour. After all, it's only a one-minute song with 16 tracks. And no vocals.

I know some folks are really going all out with this in order to show off their chops, and that's cool. I'm looking forward to being amazed. But it's not a job application. There is no prize, and we promise not to ridicule any submission. (OK, somebody might ridicule it, but you already know who those jerks are and surely expect no less from them. The rest of us just want to hear your favorite samples.)

And don't be intimidated just because orchestration isn't your thing. Even if you don't know how to spell MIDI, maybe now's the time to take that plunge! We're always here to help, and you can feel free to call Randy at home 24 hours a day.

Billy, we look forward to your contribution when you find time for it - Glad you want to do one.

Bitflipper - Yeah, what You said - Thanks for answering Planetearth's questions.  To underline - the .cwp is to be preferred for Sonar users, because it's all set up with a demo of how the file plays in the GM synth TSS-1.  The MIDI file was provided for people still using older versions of Sonar, and was "improved" because I was moving too fast and made an editing error in the first version.  But the .cwp file doesn't have that same error in it.

As I've said - the more the merrier on this.  I know that everyone who takes a listen to the submitted files is going to have a very enlightening time listening to the differences and drawing their own conclusions.

Randy B.

Matt


Great post, great idea, can't wait to hear the results.

(Have they been posted somewhere?  I sort of skimmed a couple pages I think...)

Without doing a lot of work, I was really excited to try this with my stock setup and template of sounds that I always use, just to see how it would sound.  But after I downloaded the MIDI file, I realized that I always write to the sample, and not the other way around.  I don't think there's a chance in hell I could come close to realistic with the brass, and as such, I just wouldn't take on a project like this.

I never write brass lines like this, because I don't believe they can be emulated successfully with samples.  But man I am excited to be proven wrong!  If I was asked to reproduce this track, I would probably just do a string-only rendition, or whatever I could find that would sound as close as possible to real instruments.  Write to the sample, instead of trying to make the sample sound real.

Hi, Matt - What an interesting post you've written.  "Write to the sample"---I've never heard that before.  I guess you mean that when you write music, you're somehow limiting yourself to what you think the limitations of your sample patches are--?  - If so, I would say that would be extremely limiting. 

The idea of using synths/samplers is to record any kind of music that exists - with the understanding that of course the results aren't going to be Just Like a group of live musicians playing the same score.  But when I put together projects, if I limited myself in any way, thinking, "Well, live players could pull this off, but samples won't, so I'll re-write my idea"---then I'm sure I wouldn't produce half of what I do. 

I advise you to think out of your particular box.  The brass lines in this piece aren't anything out of the ordinary - Samples or synths can pull them off just fine, if you'll agree to letting them do that.  In other words - I'm advising you to take back your rejection of the idea, --go ahead and cook up a version of this.  I think you'll be surprised at how far you can let yourself out of your box if you'll allow that to happen!

Randy B.

I always write to the sample

I know exactly what you're talking about, Matt. You browse through your libraries, and whatever sound you fall on tells you what it wants to play. I've started songs with one concept in mind and ended up with something entirely different, just because midway I pulled up a new sample that insisted on another direction.

Writing music to a preordained specification is a lot harder. I have tremendous respect for guys who can come up with, say, circus music on demand. Or compose to some vague direction, like to "convey tension but sound like a 1980's disco". Yeh, there are guys who do that for a living. Some of them hang out here.

But you don't have to be one of those guys to participate in this exercise. Think of it as an opportunity to explore your libraries in new ways. You will probably come away from it feeling like you have some new tools in your kit.

planetearth


I've already found that EWQL's "Piccolo Flute" doesn't play the last note of the Piccolo track. Apparently, the good folks at EWQL believe that's outside the piccolo's true range.

The top note on a piccolo should be C (four (?) octaves above middle C). There is however a Db piccolo which is half a tone higher. I have not had chance to look at the files yet. What note does not play.

Bitflipper, you really did start not only a great event/challenge, but also a great thread.

Matt, thanks for your new post.  I understand better what you mean now - You set the file up with a sound library and felt the results when you pushed Play were awful.  Very likely it didn't sound so great, because it's virtually impossible to just push Play and ever have satisfactory results. 

"...I'm not much of a 'tweaker' and I don't spend a lot of time trying to reproduce live music..."  I understand, and that's the issue.  The only way you can make orchestral instruments and actual music arrangements come to life is with 10 Tons of tweaking.  That's the nature of the beast.

Hope you still submit something so we can at least get some idea of what the software you chose sounds like.

Some of us write music which is specifically intended for a particular group of instruments - a string quartet, a woodwind quintet, a full orchestra.  We have to rely on software instruments to give us an idea of what the composition sounds like - hence the need for using a library or a combination of libraries to emulate what a live group of musicians would sound like.  In that writing scenario, the music itself comes first, then there are limited choices for instruments to play it.  I'm writing a piano concerto - I have to be satisfied that one of my soft pianos is going to be able to play it.

"...Back to the subject at hand: great topic.  When do we get to hear the submissions??..."

As early as this weekend.  We wanted there to be a nice bundle of MP3s to put online, and we're getting there.

Planetearth -"...I've already found that EWQL's "Piccolo Flute" doesn't play the last note of the Piccolo track. Apparently, the good folks at EWQL believe that's outside the piccolo's true range.

If this MIDI file was made from the actual score, then I'm more inclined to believe Jerry Goldsmith knew what he was doing, and EWQL just wanted to get out of sampling a few extra notes..."

This MIDI file was put together "by ear," not from the original score.  There are many places where it's not like Goldsmith's original work, and there are even some wrong notes.  I'm not positive if the piccolo goes higher than it should - but there is the Db piccolo as Glyn points out.  THe instrument I used reached the highest note, so I was OK.  But when I have a sample that isn't going low or high enough, I pitch shift the audio.

Guitarman - "...my orchestra software does not have percussion ensemble or the percussion grouped together, that was why I was not getting a sound I guess. Although logically speaking you would think the timpani would sound since I had that patch loaded. I will be working on this over the weekend to make the separate tracks..."

Right, as we've said, separating out the various instruments from that percussion track is what most people will have to do, it's what I did, and Bitflipper did also.  It's not too hard - in the PRV click one of the piano notes.  All of the notes in the entire file have been selected.  Copy and paste into your new track.  It only takes a few minutes to split the notes out that way.

Looking forward to receiving more submissions!

Randy B.

Planetearth -"...I've already found that EWQL's "Piccolo Flute" doesn't play the last note of the Piccolo track. Apparently, the good folks at EWQL believe that's outside the piccolo's true range.

If this MIDI file was made from the actual score, then I'm more inclined to believe Jerry Goldsmith knew what he was doing, and EWQL just wanted to get out of sampling a few extra notes..."

rbowser - This MIDI file was put together "by ear," not from the original score.  There are many places where it's not like Goldsmith's original work, and there are even some wrong notes.  I'm not positive if the piccolo goes higher than it should - but there is the Db piccolo as Glyn points out.  THe instrument I used reached the highest note, so I was OK.  But when I have a sample that isn't going low or high enough, I pitch shift the audio.



I am giving it a try with EWQL also. It's actually the low end of the register of the flute (correction - piccolo) at the end of the piece that doesn't sound. I fudged a little and moved the final note up in pitch a bit.

I just dloaded the file and started looking at the score.  I'm now embaressed that I have never played with the TTS-1 before.
This is a great learning experience and i hope I can contribute something. 

Thanks for doing this

planetearth


Glyn, I''m not at the machine now, but I believe the last note is a G. It's about 5 steps below the last note EWQL's Symphonic Orchestra Piccolo Flute offers.

That sounds about right. The lowest note on a piccalo is C.  I would try the EW Flute. I suspect it was sequenced for a GM synth, and their piccalos will go all the way down to C0
 

bitflipper

I always write to the sample

I know exactly what you're talking about, Matt. You browse through your libraries, and whatever sound you fall on tells you what it wants to play. I've started songs with one concept in mind and ended up with something entirely different, just because midway I pulled up a new sample that insisted on another direction.

Writing music to a preordained specification is a lot harder. I have tremendous respect for guys who can come up with, say, circus music on demand. Or compose to some vague direction, like to "convey tension but sound like a 1980's disco". Yeh, there are guys who do that for a living. Some of them hang out here.

But you don't have to be one of those guys to participate in this exercise. Think of it as an opportunity to explore your libraries in new ways. You will probably come away from it feeling like you have some new tools in your kit.

Due to lack of experience in using samples, I've fallen into or actually only been using this "circus" method. I suppose it's a lot to do with just listening to the various sounds of all the libraries I just purchased and see/hear the quality of each instrument sample. I'm also very interested in this exercise, but with my limited knowledge of using samples and not really knowing how to "tweak" them.....my input most likely will be of very little use to the experiment. I haven't really researched on finding info on "how to manipulate" samples (I always thought it's more of a trial & error), but I'll download this file & at the very least use at as a personal experimental project. This is a great thread Bit & Randy!! (Any advice is greatly appreciated)
 

Is this your version of Subtractive Synthesis?

I'd call it "Subtractive Editing".

(Mesh)with my limited knowledge of using samples and not really knowing how to "tweak" them...my input most likely will be of very little use to the experiment.

Don't assume that. You might be surprised what novice users are able to contribute!

As a software developer, I value the input of new users very highly because they are able to see things that experienced users don't. Every new user is a potential source of unexpected insight, and you only get to exploit that perspective for a short time so I always encourage their feedback.

We're trying to evaluate sample libraries here, not your skill level. If you find that a particular library is especially easy to grasp from the get-go, that would indeed be valuable information to share! And if the converse were true, and you found yourself going in circles vainly trying to make a cello sound like a cello, other prospective users would want to know about that, too.

I suspect it was sequenced for a GM synth, and their piccalos will go all the way down to C0

I'd hate to have to lift a piccolo that's big enough to produce a C0 note--it would probably have to be 12 feet long!

Note sure if editing/expanding libraries is getting past the intent of this thread though!

Losguy, I believe that would be beyond the scope of this exercise, but I agree with your methods, and have used with other samples and for other issues. I think in this case, it's just an issue of the "wrong" note in the score, if a real piccolo doesn't go that low. That said, I now know how to stretch a sample playback area in Kontakt 4.1!

I'd hate to have to lift a piccolo that's big enough to produce a C0 note--it would probably have to be 12 feet long!

That's funny!

Actually, it would be just shy of 11 feet long.