chckn8r1


Okay, but, maybe I'm being a bit daft here.  What instruments is the percussion track supposed to be mapped to?

I'm guessing that the bottom to are Bass Drum and Snare....

Hello, Dave "chckn8r1" - Well, how daft you are may be a topic for another discussion, but in the meantime I can point you to post #106 on this thread.  There's a lot of verbage here on this thread, and it's not to be expected that all of it can be read and/or digested.  Pulling out the salient bit from that post, in answer to your question:

"...Percussion (Tympani, Snare, Cymbals, Bass Drum)..."

Those are the percussion instruments in the file.  If you first play the file with the Cakewalk TTS-1 synth which is set up to demo that file, you can look in the PRV to see what each General MIDI instrument is being addressed.

EDIT:  OOps, had a wire crossed when I wrote the first version of this--Info now corrected.

The bottom two lines are Snare, and then the Bass Drum at the bottom.  Tympani is above those two, on several notes, Cymbal is the highest with all of it on on one note, making it clear that the left over notes are all Tympani.

Using anything but a GM module, at least some of those notes will need to be re-assigned to match the percussion mapping in the soft synth you're using.

The easiest way to re-assign the notes is to first click a note which is being used in the PRV's keyboard.  That highlights all of the notes in the file which are on that note.  Then drag the entire group up or down to where you need them.

Voila.

Randy B.

bitflipper
C3 is the bass drum
D3 is the snare
B4 is the cymbal
F3 through F4 are tympani
C5 and C#5 are tamtams

That helps a lot, however, I'm getting some mapping that doesn't quite match up on the Sonar file and the MIDI file that was uploaded.

The bass drum comes out as C2, but if I transpose everything up so that it maps to C3, then I get instruments on C3 (bass drum, I'm thinking), D3 (SD), F3, G3, A3, A#3, C4, D4, D#4 and B4:


Thanks again guys - looking forward to tomorrow!

Ah, just hook up Superior Drummer and be done with it. Get that big spacey Bonham vibe going and it'll sound just like John Williams.

Just kidding. But this is something I hadn't really thought about before jumping into this exercise: only entry-level general-purpose synths support the GM orchestral kit. Even the lowly TTS-1 does it, mapping effortlessly to the MIDI track. But the big-boy libs don't do that because they want 64 snare variations under their "snare" sample set.

Entry-level users ought to consider that when saving up for a big-ticket sample library: those high-end libs do entail more work, steeper learning curve, are more CPU-intensive and consume vastly more memory and disk. These are actually good arguments for a simpler, CPU-friendly library like Miroslav or Garrittan.

I could be wrong about those values...those were off the top of my head, since I wasn't near my DAW when I wrote that. I'll verify them when I get a chance...and which one is Crunch?

The percussion track loads a GM2 orchestral set.

The used pitches are sounding as follows in my Edirol GM2 module (top to bottom):

B4 Cymbal
D#4 Timpani 7 (highest)
D4 Timpani 6
C4 Timpani 5
A#3 Timpani 4
A3 Timpani 3
G3 Timpani 2
F3 Timpani 1 (lowest)
D3 Snare
C3 Bass Drum
 
The shared MIDI file is a bit odd, I must say.  Music starts at beat 2 of measure one, but it's pretty clear from the score it should start at a first beat (with a slight upbeat from several instruments). I had to shift everything 3 beats right, so the 1 in the score falls on the first beat of a measure. Also, there were two tempo messages (the GM setup messages are played at 76bpm, but before the music starts there is a tempo change to 112bpm. That tempo isn't changed during the song, so it's a bit odd that it doesn't just start with 112 in the first place.

Contributers that rely on the MIDI file should be aware that there are quite a bit of GM MIDI messages that most likely will need to be deleted for the use of non-GM libraries (The program changes, of course, but also CC7, CC10, CC91, CC93 and on some tracks CC11. There might be more that I didn't catch.).

Disclaimer: Please nobody misunderstand these remarks, they are just meant as observations to make it easier for others to start up with that MIDI file. Nothing earthshaking is wrong there, the GM messages are of course needed to make it sound right on a GM2 instrument and the time oddities can easily be fixed.


EDIT: I PMed rbowser with a link to a Reaper project file he might want to add to the material page. You can also find a link to the file in the thread ...wicked opened at Reaper forums http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=548878

This project has already taught me a few things.

- It's prompted me explore some libraries that have been sitting idle on my disk for months and even years. The brass samples that come bundled with Kontakt are really quite good, but I'd never used them before. The snare library, not so good.

- It's made me go and look up the meaning of "portato".

- It led to the discovery of the "Rev" slider, which somehow I'd never noticed before, and that it can control the reverb level in my outboard hardware synths. All this time I've been inserting CC events to do that.

And this week it's provided a handy platform for exploring my newly-acquired Miroslav Philharmonik library that just arrived yesterday.

NEW IMPROVED MIDI FILE!

In the folder at Box with the Shootout materials, there's a newly edited MIDI file for those who can't use the .cwp file.  The bogus wrong tempo at the start is gone, and there's a full measure lead in, lining the tracks up properly on the time line.

The new MIDI file is labeled "Improved," so you can miss it:

ORCHESTRAL SHOOTOUT

Randy B.

Grem


OK. Have not posted but I have been lurking since the beginning.

I know some midi to get me by. But I have no where near the abilities to tackle this project. That was my reasoning at the start of this thread.

I have seen others in this thread that are learning from this experiment/project. So I have decided that I'll give it a go also!

So thanks Bit and Randy. Well done. When you can get people to think out of their comfort zone, you have really accomplished something!!!

Super, Grem - Be sure to use the .cwp file, since you're using Sonar 8.5.  Just open that up, hit play - You'll see that the TTS-1 which is already inserted for demo purposes will switch to the instruments the file calls for.

After that, insert the soft synth you want to use, and set its tracks up to match the instruments intended in the MIDI file.  Then get creative, do whatever data editing and mixing you want to do, just leave the notes and tempo as they are - One exception would be if you want to edit some of the percussion rolls which can be improved upon.

Look forward to your contribution!

Randy B.

Twigman



What notes should the Timpani be tuned to?
Is the key root on the lowest timpani or the highest or somewhere in between?
I've not DL'd the cwp so I don't even know what key the piece is in yet.

Hi, Twigman - Glad you're going to work on this.

The file starts in the key of Bb then switches to G.  I'm not sure what you mean by "...what notes should the Timpani be tuned to..." - There shouldn't be any tuning involved.  The timpani just plays the notes you'll find in the file.  Once you open the .cwp, things will be more clear.

Have fun with it!

Randy B.

Twigman


OK - I'm approaching this from a very low budget perspective with no money invested in expensive sound libraries....all I have at my disposal are Sonar7 instruments and Reason3 and Wusikstation!![I doubt I'd use any of my other VSTs - Battery3/and a few dance synths]  We'll see what it sounds like!! LOL
 
 
i had assumed that as the percussion track was playing 7 distinct timpani drums that they would be tuned seperately but if they are designed to just play the notes they're assigned to then that's fine.......

Hello again, Twigman - I think it's great that you'll be using something from Sonar, or Reason.  Keep in mind that the idea is to demo a soft synth, like in the .cwp file which demos the TTS-1.  You wouldn't want to put together a project that has a lot of different synths in it, because none of us would get a clear idea of what different soft synths we're listening to. 

So it's a "demo a soft synth" project, not a "show us your best effort" project.

Regarding the Tympani - You're thinking of the Real World instrument rather than its "virtual instrument" counterpart.  In real life this would call for probably 4 kettles, all with pedals for re-tuning during the performance.  But in synth land - the drums are already tuned to whatever you want, like any other instrument.

We shouldn't think of this MIDI file as being accurate though - The guy who sequenced the file didn't re-create exactly what really happens with tympani in the score - none of it is accurate in that way.  He undoubtedly assembled the sequence by ear.

Randy B.

rbowser



So it's a "demo a soft synth" project, not a "show us your best effort" project.

 
reason3 it'll be then :)

bitflipper


This project has already taught me a few things.

- It's prompted me explore some libraries that have been sitting idle on my disk for months and even years. The brass samples that come bundled with Kontakt are really quite good, but I'd never used them before.
 
 
 
 
Hey Bit...The kontact Orch Lib is really very good.   Try using the  "X" versions of instuments as they allow you to create great dynamics by using the mod-wheel.  Carefull with the Miroslov  library as some things (marimba?) are tuned using the European tuning....I think A=442 not 440 as in the US.
 

There are several weaknesses with the Miroslav library.  The one that bugs me the most is the strange synthy sound of the high strings.  One thing that you'll notice is that the online demos all have the strings tucked into the back of the mix, which hides this deficiency....and it's the opposite of what a real orchestra sounds like, i.e., the strings predominate.

I have some old "secret weapons" that I will never part with, including East-West's "The Ultimate Strings Collection" (Roland format) and Prime Sounds Session Strings.  Newer dosn't always mean better.

Johannes H


Interesting project you`ve started here.
I downloaded the cwp file and have played around with it.

If I get time to make a proper mix in the weekend I`ll join the party..........

Best, JH

Great, Johannes - But even if you don't get enough time this weekend to do a mix, that's no problem, because we want to keep this open as an on-going project, adding new contributions as they come up.  So just send yours in whenever you can!

Randy B.

Ok, found some useful info on page 5 of this thread, I now know why my timpani are silent. That file has multiple percussion instruments.But I would think my timpani would sound at the time it is umm. midized..lol.. like that word?   I am gonna have to make separate tracks for each instrument I think with the library I am using... back to the drawing board.

Ok.. you guys want to have a good laugh?... for grins I loaded up ez drummer on the percussion tracks... if you have that try it, it is umm different to say the least.