RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 18:23:18
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Yesterday I made an entirely new song called "Let's Fly Away"and used V-vocal in some rather unconventional ways. I when into the cakewalk contend and found a drum beat Rex file I liked and threw that into the song with a few similar variations to jazz things up. Then I found some bass section in the content library. Unfortunately the sections I found and liked were either all centered around a one pitch riff. We all know a one pitch riff gets tiring after less than a minute. So I used the pitch correction tool and raised and lowered a few logical sections. Then I used the formant tool, even though it did not seem to need it, I raised and lowered the formant accordingly. I was reminded of the programs that use slices but what was nice about V-vocal is I use it so much I was really familiar with its interface so editing the loop sections were a breeze. After dickering with the pitch and raising and lowering the various sections I then hit the auto pitch just to see how i did and it shifted the edits i made ever so slightly. Then I bounced the edited v-vocal bass sections to track and I was able to chop them up and i use them where i wanted. I used three bass sections like this, one was in a different pitch altogether off by a half tone. I am sending along these tips because this forum has been good to me (though not always nice) and I have learned some VERY valuable things here from you all. One part of me says that these things I have learned are "trade secrets" but since others here share info with me freely I have chosen to be open sourced about the things I have learned and contribute. BTW I really liked the Roland video that was shared about the middle voice. The guy reminded me a little of Frankie Valley (someone I admire). I have other things I would like to talk about here but to keep true to the forum I will post them in another thread. My advice is don't try and use V-vocal and Melodyne in the same song. I have had bad results trying that. They don't agree with each other on my machine. Pick one or the other. You may have a different experience than i did but I got files corrupted and had to figure out exactly which one it was. This does not happen when I use V-vocal alone. Also having Melodyne clips in my project the waves would sometimes disappear in V-vocal. I have a fairly new ATI PCIe graphics card that I paid over $500 for so I doubt it is that. Once again I think it is Melodyne... All those fancy blobs come at a cost. (hehe)
post edited by RexRed - 2014/07/15 18:47:35
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John
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 18:29:10
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I can't wait for the end of this thread! Its clear V-Vocal is not going anywhere. It contenues to work and some say better then ever. No, it wont be shipped with new versions of Sonar but like so many abandoned plugins it is still viable and useful. When the time comes when it will no longer work something will have superseded it anyway.
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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 19:08:28
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RexRed
Then I found some bass section in the content library. Unfortunately the sections I found and liked were either all centered around a one pitch riff. We all know a one pitch riff gets tiring after less than a minute. The iZotope Radius transposition algorithm is what I usually use for transpositions. Also don't forget about Pitch markers. Also having Melodyne clips in my project the waves would sometimes disappear in V-vocal. I have a fairly new ATI PCIe graphics card that I paid over $500 for so I doubt it is that. Once again I think it is Melodyne... If you're into comping, make sure the Melodyne clip isn't muted.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 19:56:49
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dubdisciple
Craig...how does Vocalign compare with plural eyes?
One is a is a plug in and the other is a free standing program.
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Splat 
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 20:03:46
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Ruben
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 21:02:12
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RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/15 23:49:18
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This thread is still open...
If you do not want to participate in this thread please don't read it. Your attempts to close this thread are "off topic" and also "spam". If you do not like V-vocal then start your own Melodyne thread. Otherwise please respect those who would like to participate one way or another in this topic.
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 01:06:04
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mike_mccue
dubdisciple
Craig...how does Vocalign compare with plural eyes?
One is a is a plug in and the other is a free standing program.
thanks for that lovely dose of useless dickery
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 07:06:02
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The implications of the two different workflows seem perfectly obvious. Maybe this will help: Batch processing of sync sound versus the on the fly flexibility of ambiance matching while recording an ADR session. While both products match sync, one product is made explicitly for syncing Automated Dialog Replacement performances while the other product evolved from, and has a few advanced features for automating the replacement of, the very same audio recorded at the very same time on two different audio recording systems. A.k.a. Double System Sync Sound. edited grammar
post edited by mike_mccue - 2014/07/16 12:33:12
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Splat
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 10:54:46
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RexRed
I have been told "officially" that V-Vocal is done and Melodyne has replaced it.
I just wanted the powers that be to know I cannot make my music with Melodyne as it is. The way V-vocal stretches audio I could not imagine not having that feature.
I have read reviews online about how Melodyne tunes vocals better than v-vocal. Melodyne does NOT tune better than V-vocal.
Melodyne strips the life out of my vocals when I try and tune with it even on a modest setting. On some vocals Melodyne does okay but then I still have to bounce the clip to track and open it in V-vocal so why bother? I know all the tricks in V-vocal to making the pitch on my vocals perfect and Melodyne cannot even approach this level of quality with such ease.
I expect that one day if Melodyne is developed it will one day come up to the level of V-vocal but I think it will take 5 years before that happens, if ever.
I don't know the politics of why that V-vocal has not been developed in so long and why it was replaced by an (i have to say it.) inferior product.
I suspect that people at Cakewalk development have just not spent much time in V-vocal (editing), if they had spent time editing in V-vocal, as I have perhaps easily over a thousand hours in the program, they would never have even for a moment considered not including it in Sonar X3 and all subsequent versions of Cakewalk.
I don't mean this as an insult, I absolutely LOVE Cakewalk Sonar X3 as I have been using Cakewalk since Cakewalk for DOS.
I will not be switching over to Melodyne in the near future and I think it is a real pity that by now V-vocal has not been developed to include the smart tools and smart grid areas of Sonar.
Melodyne does some cool things that V-vocal does not but V-Vocal is still a superior product. The things that Melodyne has over V-vocal I may never use but on a rare occasion but the things that V-vocal has over melodyne I use incessantly.
It would have been nice if Cakewalk's transient markers had been added to V-vocal and also Cakewalks quantize features.
I hate to say it but someone has really dropped the ball on V-vocal and now you are tethered to (I assume) a third party company Melodyne that has a less user friendly product with a clunky buggy interface. Yes V-vocal is buggy too but it still totally stands the test of time.
I tried Melodyne when it was a stand alone plugin and it was terrible then and it is still terrible now even with it more closely integrated into Cakewalk. It is ALSO buggier than V-vocal, I was waiting for Melodyne to corrupt my entire Cakewalk project file...
My music would totally suffer without V-vocal, V-vocal preserves my music's fidelity while offering powerful, accurate and a quick full range of easy to use editing tools.
V-vocal still gets my vote hands down. Whoever says it does not I would like to know why. They don't know what they are talking about, they are amateur editors. Melodyne is a fad at this point to me and nothing more. V-vocal is the real deal people. I don't say that with a lot of development Melodyne cannot come up to the level of V-Vocal but I don't have the time to wait when I already have a product that gives me the finished tracks that I need.
I would suggest Cakewalk developers reconsider NOT dumping V-vocal so fast. Bring V-vocal back and develop it, add Melodyne's extra features to V-vocal not the other way around. V-Vocal is a rock solid (a little buggy) foundation for wave editing.
RexRed
This thread is still open...
If you do not want to participate in this thread please don't read it. Your attempts to close this thread are "off topic" and also "spam". If you do not like V-vocal then start your own Melodyne thread. Otherwise please respect those who would like to participate one way or another in this topic.
Have a sense of humour... 
BTW I just read the original post and you mentioned the word "Melodyne" 18 times, so to deem it a pure VVocal thread is a little prone to exaggeration. I think you were the one comparing throughout so really it's very much on topic... If you are dishing this sort of stuff out please don't expect not to take it back. Cheers...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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stickman393
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 11:04:40
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I tried Melodyne and didn't like the workflow much.
I already had V-Vocal from earlier versions of SONAR, and rely on it, and understand how to use it effectively.
I've used it to tweak vocals, and monophonic bass lines, and in one case take an audio bass line and extrapolate MIDI notes. Worked great.
V-Vocal works great in X3.
You bet I have no interesting in listening to folks say "V-Vocal is dead", and telling me I should just accept it and use the inferior product that comes bundled with SONAR X3. (Do not compare V-Vocal (free, bundled) with the Melodyne Editor (you have to upgrade to it)).
I do feel sad that V-Vocal is basically only available to folks who already have it from earlier versions of SONAR... I hear R-Mix was pretty cool too, although I never used it.
If anything, this whole journey reminds us that you have to take the promo material for a new version with a big grain of salt. Bundled extras don't really matter. They might be fantastic, but there's no guarantee they'll be around in the next version. It's the built-in features that matter. *Cough* take lanes *cough*.
That said, I love V-Vocal. It allowed me to produce music and songs that would not have been possible for me to do at the time, without it.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 11:57:47
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I'll try this again.
It does not have to be an either or situation, between V-Vocal and Melodyne.
I happen to have retained V-Vocal, AND have Melodyne from X3 (did not do the upgrade though).
If someone is happy and productive using EITHER ONE OR BOTH, that is a great place to be, and what makes perfect sense for one person has no bearing whatsoever on what makes perfect DIFFERENT sense to another person.
So, this continued debate is just rehashing the same stuff over and over again, in my opinion.
I use both, and will continue to do so. Others will use V-Vocal only, while additional folks will use Melodyne only, and yet another group will use both like me, and then again there will be some folks that don't like either one, and will poke sticks at their vocalists until they get it right.
Whatever makes sense to YOU, is all that matters.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 12:26:02
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Rex..not one person in this thread said you must use melodyne. I think it is pretty much consensus that that there is no reason to stop using the one you prefer. Vvocal is dead in the sense that it no longer is offered and is highly unlikely to be offered.
post edited by dubdisciple - 2014/07/16 12:38:49
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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 12:31:33
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stickman393
You bet I have no interesting in listening to folks say "V-Vocal is dead" It's not "dead," it's discontinued and there is no evidence it will be developed further. However, Windows will be developed further. At some point - maybe next year, maybe next decade - those two will diverge sufficiently that V-Vocal may not work any more. I should just accept it and use the inferior product that comes bundled with SONAR X3. (Do not compare V-Vocal (free, bundled) with the Melodyne Editor (you have to upgrade to it). For users who have had reliability issues with V-Vocal, Melodyne (even the $99 version bundled with Sonar) is not seen as an inferior product. Some people also feel it sounds better. Inferiority or superiority is perceived through the lens of what a particular user wants. I do feel sad that V-Vocal is basically only available to folks who already have it from earlier versions of SONAR... It doesn't make much practical sense to license a legacy product that the manufacturer (Roland) no longer supports. However the ability for existing users who like V-Vocal to continue using it is a plus. Nothing has been inserted in Sonar's code to "break" V-Vocal and force users not to use it. If anything, this whole journey reminds us that you have to take the promo material for a new version with a big grain of salt. Bundled extras don't really matter. They might be fantastic, but there's no guarantee they'll be around in the next version. V-Vocal has been around for eight years, and it still works. It seems incongruous to say that "bundled extras don't really matter" if you've been getting usage out of V-Vocal for eight years, say you love it, and can still continue to use it. In terms of longevity, very few music software products have remained in the same basic state for eight years.
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 12:46:26
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Sonitus plugins have been around even longer, are unlikely be developed any more but are still useful
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 13:14:17
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bitflipper
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Nope, all fixes came from Japan.
Our move to ARA and Melodyne was done well before we left Roland. V-Vocal was already on it's way out. That's all I really know about the issue.
Thanks for that information. So Roland did own the code - not some third party - and just decided it wasn't worth pursuing. Seems like a waste of a good start.
Was the TTS-1 a similar scenario? By that, I mean developed in-house at Roland and never touched again? The datestamp on the DLL is 2010 and the internal version is 1.0.2, so it's had at least one fix release since it was first bundled with SONAR in 2004. But after 10 years it still can't handle 88.2.
Yup, similar scenario for the rest of the Roland Synths and FX.
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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 13:15:24
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dubdisciple
Sonitus plugins have been around even longer, are unlikely be developed any more but are still useful
Actually that's a different situation, because Cakewalk owns them and I believe has done some updates over the years for compatibility (although not to the GUI, so the changes aren't visible). I asked Cakewalk if I could rely on Sonitus plug-ins existing in Sonar for the foreseeable future, and they said yes. Not that you asked, but the VC-64 is yet another situation. Cakewalk has tried hard to track down Kjaerhus in order to update the VC-64, which people love (myself included). However the Kjaerhus website is down, and despite efforts to find him, he's disappeared and no one has any idea what happened to him. Without obtaining rights to modify the code or purchase it outright, from a legal standpoint Cakewalk can't do anything about the VC-64.
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 13:18:06
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Craig..good point. They are very different situations.
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Keni
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 13:36:20
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BlixYZ
I should have mentioned that i upgraded to editor almost immediately. If memory serves me correctly, however, the biggest difference is the ability to do polyphonic work.
Melodyne corrects as subtly as you like, and more transparently than vvocal (because of the phasing issues). Although melodyne is less flexible in several ways, it's designed the way it is to corrrect in thee most realistic and transparent way possible. This it does well. The one area that vvocal beats it is in it's ability to draw straight lines and do crazy, radical changes. both do timing adjustments equally well. vvocal "could been a contender" if it's phasing issue was resolved. also it was a constant source of instability on my system(s).
I think this is part of the issue... I too continue to use VV... But from what I understand, it's because I can't upgrade Melodyne to editor version and some of the features I need to accomplish the level of work I get from VV only come with that..... Not just the polyphony, but there are more adjustments available in editor than in the light version packaged with Sonar... As others have mentioned, VV is a Roland product and they are famous for coming up with great ideas and quickly abandoning them... Look at their synth lines! So while I too remain a VV user, I look forward to the day I can upgrade to editor and discover for myself if it can do what I get from VV... As others have informed me... So I think we also have to remember here that VV is a complete version and Melodyne is only a light version! Keni
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SF_Green
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 16:22:11
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Anderton
dubdisciple
Sonitus plugins have been around even longer, are unlikely be developed any more but are still useful
Actually that's a different situation, because Cakewalk owns them and I believe has done some updates over the years for compatibility (although not to the GUI, so the changes aren't visible). I asked Cakewalk if I could rely on Sonitus plug-ins existing in Sonar for the foreseeable future, and they said yes.
Not that you asked, but the VC-64 is yet another situation. Cakewalk has tried hard to track down Kjaerhus in order to update the VC-64, which people love (myself included). However the Kjaerhus website is down, and despite efforts to find him, he's disappeared and no one has any idea what happened to him. Without obtaining rights to modify the code or purchase it outright, from a legal standpoint Cakewalk can't do anything about the VC-64.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who loved the VC-64. Actually I liked all the Kjaerhus plugs I tried. I have the Golden Modulator plus the free suite too. Wish I had picked up more before he vanished! Hope you are able to track him down sometime and get the VC-64 code.
AMD FX-8370, Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3, Win7x64 SP1, 16Gb CorsairDDR3-1600, GeForce GTX 950 (390.65), SSD 525Gb (OS), SATA 3 & 1.5Tb, MOTU microlite, RME FireFace 800 (D 3.124, fw 2.77), UAD-2Q, Adam A7X, A-800 PRO, CC121 Cubase Pro 10.0.5, SonarPt- 2017.10 (x64), Reason10.2, Live 10.0.5 Suite, Wavelab Elements 9.5.40, Komplete10Ult, POD Farm2.5, Omnisphere2.5, BFD3, Alesis QS7.1, Arturia BeatStep Pro, POD HD500, Alesis ControlPad, ARP Omni, many things with strings. GrSltz My Studio
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 17:22:02
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☄ Helpfulby SF_Green 2014/07/16 17:21:16
there should be a crowd source funded project to track him down
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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 17:37:03
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We and other people have tried, without success.
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 18:03:51
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Anderton
We and other people have tried, without success.
Has anyone hired a PI? Just seems so bizarre
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RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 18:09:33
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I really like the way X3 hides the wave behind a melodyne or VV wave. Before if you opened the take lane you would get two waves and also the wave behind it could end up unmuted and I had doubling effects that I did not know where it was coming from.
And Melodyne editor costs nearly a couple hundred dollars more than Cakewalk??? Is there not something totally arrogant about that price?
I think that price alone should be a prime reason why VV's creators should add a bit of competition in the market...
Just saying...
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robert_e_bone
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 18:19:51
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I found his ancestry - parents and siblings, and tried looking for any sibling posts where he appeared, but he is a ghost. I wish Google could process something like: SELECT Address, Phone, from Earth.humanity WHERE Name = "Torgen Kjaerhus" and Associated_Domains USED TO INCLUDE " http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/" Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 18:47:32
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RexRed And Melodyne editor costs nearly a couple hundred dollars more than Cakewalk??? Is there not something totally arrogant about that price? I think that price alone should be a prime reason why VV's creators should add a bit of competition in the market... Well I hate to be a downer, but this industry is tiny - which makes it difficult to amortize significant R&D efforts over a large number of units. There are exceptions like Cakewalk that sell to a broad audience and have multiple products, but it's tough for small companies selling niche products to survive. Companies don't want to charge more than they have to, because the lower the price, the more units they'll sell...up to a certain point. The reality is there are only so many people in the world who wake up saying "What I really need is polyphonic pitch correction software" or pitch correction software in general, and many of them have already bought into Auto-Tune. I'd be willing to bet that someone at Roland looked at the cost of maintaining and updating V-Vocal, projected the returns, and decided it would be a losing proposition. And based on what I know of this industry, if that's the case I'd say they would be correct in their assessment.
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dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 19:10:29
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Rexred...um..there is competition in the market..Melodyne and Autontune are just leading at the moment, but there are others. Izotope makes a couple products. So does Waves.
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Splat
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 19:14:51
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I have just seen Montey Python live. The dead parrot sketch is alive and well :)
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 20:06:32
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@Alex - FABULOUS - wish I could have seen it - fortunately they will someday have to settle another law suit and will work out some sort of cable TV offering for the show.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Splat
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Re: The End of V-Vocal?
2014/07/16 20:16:07
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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