Helpful ReplyThe End of V-Vocal?

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backwoods
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/16 21:47:18 (permalink)
I wonder whatever became of the Vintage Channel guy.

It's something that has always worried me about niche companies- frequently only a couple of people, and only one person who knows what makes the product tick. What happens to the consumer when that main guy keels over or goes loco or whatever?

There are a lot of plugin companies I can imagine going the same way.
Ruben
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/16 23:02:26 (permalink)
SF_Green
 
Glad to see I'm not the only one who loved the VC-64.  Actually I liked all the Kjaerhus plugs I tried.  I have the Golden Modulator plus the free suite too.  Wish I had picked up more before he vanished!  Hope you are able to track him down sometime and get the VC-64 code.



 
I've not really delved into VC-64 although it is interesting, and of course Kjaerhus has a good reputation. But I've always wondered something about VC-64...
 
Why is it called VC-64 when it's only 32-bit? 

  
scook
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/16 23:11:42 (permalink)
64bit internal data path
RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 00:00:04 (permalink)
Tried Melodyne essential AGAIN for a while. I keep thinking I can do what i need with it and just keep getting disappointed. I learned to stretch notes in it but there are only tiny ruler lines up top and the boxes feature is practically useless. Back to V-vocal.
 
I have a feeling i would spend 600+ dollars (I could buy a new PC for that price) on the Editor version and still be just as disappointed and end up using v-vocal. No, I will wait till the program surpasses V-vocal in the basic editing features.
 
backwoods
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 00:31:49 (permalink)
Melodyne editor is less than half of $600 at audio deluxe. Where do you get you bizarre ideas from rexred?
Splat
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 00:39:07 (permalink)
If you spent more time learning and less complaining you could get somewhere:

Time Grid Overview: http://youtu.be/JtIbhSIH33c

There are also features around these 'boxes' that you haven't clearly come across yet, melodyne is a product you need to sit down and learn systematically, please don't expect the 'get it' by trial and error. If you do that you will get the basics but not great results because you would have only glossed over 10% of the features. I spent two days learning it myself. Groove 3 tutorials for instance last 4 hours, but I spent another 12 practicing.

If you don't have the time to learn it that's fine, but that's your issue if so.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/07/18 00:48:58

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RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 01:48:55 (permalink)
backwoods
Melodyne editor is less than half of $600 at audio deluxe. Where do you get you bizarre ideas from rexred?

Here is where I got that bizarre idea...
 
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/10684780321099078610?
 
$569 online

 
Not sure what the "studio bundle" is but... 
 
Read the details and it gives no extra info...
RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 02:08:27 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
If you spent more time learning and less complaining you could get somewhere:

Time Grid Overview: http://youtu.be/JtIbhSIH33c

There are also features around these 'boxes' that you haven't clearly come across yet, melodyne is a product you need to sit down and learn systematically, please don't expect the 'get it' by trial and error. If you do that you will get the basics but not great results because you would have only glossed over 10% of the features. I spent two days learning it myself. Groove 3 tutorials for instance last 4 hours, but I spent another 12 practicing.

If you don't have the time to learn it that's fine, but that's your issue if so.

If I spent less time watching videos that don't give me a solution...
 
What good are ruler lines up top when the blobs are halfway down the page? 
 
That was my criticism if you go back and actually read my last complaint, I saw the stubby littler ruler lines it takes about ten minutes to go through every drop down menu in Melodyne.... The ruler lines do not go vertically down the page so what good are they?
 
Neither do they go down the page in essential nor in the editor version...
 
It as useless as being a carpenter and leaving your tape measure at home...
 
I have spent much more than two days in Melodyne and I also spent over 6 hours in it the other night. The boxes are cumbersome and far from intuitive.
 
In v-vocal I don't need to "split notes" I can just move and sculpt them where I want them.
 
In V-Vocal I can surgically erase any edits made on a certain wave and go back to the original at any time "within the app" where is that in Melodyne? I had to undo an entire wave of edits because I was in a corner and could not get melodyne to "not" edit a particular note incorrectly.
dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 02:10:03 (permalink)
Not sure offhand what is included in the bundle too, but it seems odd you assumed that a bundle was the priced of one item without bothering to look up the price of the "non-bundle" version.  You specifically mentioned Editor, a single product and then used a price quote for a "bundle". It sounds like you were simply trying to exaggerate and consciously chose a higher price point to prove your point.  For the record, melodyne editor is usually about $349, but since you would be upgrading it would be more like $279.  Odds are you would find it on sale for even less.  I know they were offering Editor for $150 for SOnar users to upgrade at one point , which is a far cry from $600.
dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 02:12:29 (permalink)
I hope the team that created Vvcoal gets to see RexRed's post.  i am sure they will appreciate someone so fanatically devoted to their product.  I seriously think he should go to Roland's forum and post this stuff.  it may make their day
RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 02:19:28 (permalink)
Not trying to exaggerate anything, I made a mistake sorry.
 
*********
Did you check out Celemony's Capstan product?
 
Price: 
US$4,458
20 megabyte app
 
Cel your house, cel your kids, cel your wife to get the mony... :)
dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 02:36:56 (permalink)
not a big deal.  Text has an awful way of not properly conveying mood.  I was just giving you a hard time since you seem very passionate about this. 
Sanderxpander
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 08:21:10 (permalink)
You can undo any type of edit to any note by right clicking it and selecting reset parameter.
Splat
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 10:17:41 (permalink)
You gotta learn it from start to finish otherwise there will always be unanswered questions or you won't be getting adequate ROI. The product is deceptively simple. Ta.

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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 11:09:46 (permalink)
RexRed
Did you check out Celemony's Capstan product?
 
Price: 
US$4,458
20 megabyte app



Here's the equation...
 
Lots of money spent on R&D / extremely small user base = high cost per unit
 
For archiving companies that have priceless audio stored on tape that suffers from the problems Capstan addresses, they will be more than happy to pay that price because nothing else exists that will solve their problem. There aren't enough companies who need a product like that to amortize the R&D over a larger number of units sold.
 
Oh, and since I'm here...thanks to those who followed the links and commented favorably on my music. All done with Sonar and amp sims, of course ;-)

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
John T
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/18 15:06:44 (permalink)
The other thing about Capstan is that you can rent it for a few days instead of buying it, which is what I gather most of its users do.

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RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/19 20:17:20 (permalink)
Anderton
RexRed
Did you check out Celemony's Capstan product?
 
Price: 
US$4,458
20 megabyte app



Here's the equation...
 
Lots of money spent on R&D / extremely small user base = high cost per unit
 
For archiving companies that have priceless audio stored on tape that suffers from the problems Capstan addresses, they will be more than happy to pay that price because nothing else exists that will solve their problem. There aren't enough companies who need a product like that to amortize the R&D over a larger number of units sold.
 
Oh, and since I'm here...thanks to those who followed the links and commented favorably on my music. All done with Sonar and amp sims, of course ;-)




I still think Capstan is overpriced for a 20mb app but I do understand and concede your main points. I definitely don't think Melodyne editor is worth $349.00. I know of app developers who offer that much programming 20mb for free in the Android app store.
 
Even at 200 dollars I do not think melodyne is worth "me" buying due to the points I have brought up here already. I think 200 is a fair price for Melodyne editor.
 
And if Melodyne editor is such an industry standard with "millions of users" why has that not brought the price down to something reasonable? (If your equation is valid).
 
Capstan = limited users, melodyne = many users (According to Alex, millions) but still the Melodyne app is ridiculously priced at $350.00. Maybe it has been pirated too much, if that is the case I would be willing to rethink the pricing but not the overall usability of Melodyne. 350 bucks times a million? 350 million should be able to provide a more stable user friendly app.
 
For 150 bucks more I can buy Cakewalk Producer with "30 years" of the world's finest programming under the hood, gigs of "industry standard" samples and loops, 27 total FX, and 12 instruments, each instrument represents the same amount (if not more) programming than went into creating Melodyne.
 
Maybe someday Melodyne will be worth what its current price is but I am not seeing its intrinsic value when V-vocal, a program that has not been developed "much" in many years still, to me, rivals Melodyne in its basic editing user experience.
 
I hope Melodyne editor is improved and can become reasonably priced 'til then for me, it is not a "buy".
 
In my filing cabinet I have my full version of Sonar X2 professional with V-vocal and my X3 upgrade files on a spare hard drive and online also. As long as X3 and Windows 7 works with existing CPU hardware I will be fine with V-vocal.. Plus I have a 200 dollar version of Windows 7 64bit Home Premium with my Sonar X3 installation files. I don't think V-vocal is going away or "dying" soon for me.
 
BTW I just updated my ATI driver with a new Catalyst release (beta) this month and V-vocal is 90% more stable for me now.
 
I will still keep trying subsequent versions of Melodyne and see if any of my gripes are fixed.
 
My major gripe right now is not being able to sculpt pitch (and formant which I use a lot) like I can in v-vocal and having to chop up notes. Having to pay a 350 dollar upgrade just for volume control is not worth it. Also no vertical grid lines is like working in the dark. V-Vocal at least has 1/4 note vertical grid lines for precise wave alignment...
 
The Melodyne "boxes" are just as clunky and cumbersome as the Melodyne interface. I like the blue background in v-vocal it is good for my tastes.
 
I do like the transient feature of Melodyne that V-vocal does not have but it is t still not a buying point for me. The harmony feature is nice too but I prefer to sing my own harmonies and even if I had that feature I would probably not use it.  
And splitting chords up with melodyne does not work very well anyway.
 
I do like the wave to midi feature but that comes with essential. I can see myself using that handy feature.
 
Having to close the Melodyne welcome box is a distraction and a hassle, in the olden days of computing that was called a "nag screen". Pay 350 bucks to get nagged each time you open a wave, not cool...
 
I will be watching Melodyne and when it does come up to my standards I will one day probably buy it.
My advice is stop adding new ridiculous features and start improve the existing features. 
 
You have added a harmony generator but no grid lines, point in fact The emperor has no clothes.
 
My friendly message to Cakewalk is please acquire V-vocal (at any cost) if Roland has no use for it anymore.
 
I don't think integrating Melodyne "too deeply" into Cakewalk is currently the best plan for offering pitch manipulation options...
 
Thanks Sander for the tip about undoing notes in Melodyne, unfortunately that also has been stripped and is only a function of the editor version.
Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/19 20:51:56 (permalink)
RexRed
I still think Capstan is overpriced for a 20mb app but I do understand and concede your main points. I definitely don't think Melodyne editor is worth $349.00. I know of app developers who offer that much programming 20mb for free in the Android app store.

 
The skill required for programming is not measured in megabytes. The Sonar X2 executable is 19.2 megabytes. Some would argue that it's actually much more difficult to create a program that is both highly functional and "lean" enough to be highly efficient.
 
And if Melodyne editor is such an industry standard with "millions of users" why has that not brought the price down to something reasonable? (If your equation is valid). 350 bucks times a million? 350 million should be able to provide a more stable user friendly app.

 
My equation is valid. $350MM values a tiny company in Southern Germany at almost twice all of Fender Corporation's global valuation, based on their withdrawn 2012 IPO. Enough said.
 
For 150 bucks more I can buy Cakewalk Producer with "30 years" of the world's finest programming under the hood, gigs of "industry standard" samples and loops, 27 total FX, and 12 instruments, each instrument represents the same amount (if not more) programming than went into creating Melodyne.

 
But Cakewalk's older IP has been amortized over many years, many purchasers, and many versions...besides, how do you know that something like Session Drummer or RXP required programming chops equal to Melodyne? Although I'm very happy you recognize the effort that goes into creating the components that make up Cakewalk's entire package (not everyone does), programming polyphonic pitch detection is not trivial. Companies have tried for years without success, and when Melodyne was first introduced with polyphonic capabilities, several pundits thought it would never reach the market because what they were attempting was "impossible."
 
 My major gripe right now is not being able to sculpt pitch (and formant which I use a lot) like I can in v-vocal and having to chop up notes.

 
I can't imagine wanting to change formant midway through a note, although of course there are many possible use cases. With V-Vocal, I always used the formant pencil tool to make a change for an entire note. Ditto pitch, so doing either in Melodyne is not a stretch for me.
 
'
Having to close the Melodyne welcome box is a distraction and a hassle, in the olden days of computing that was called a "nag screen". Pay 350 bucks to get nagged each time you open a wave, not cool...
 

 
Uncheck "show welcome screen at startup" (or whatever it says - I unchecked it so I'm not sure exactly what it says).
 
You have added a harmony generator but no grid lines, point in fact The emperor has no clothes.

 
You can snap to a grid, but I always turn it off and adjust by ear anyway. I did the same with V-Vocal.
 
My friendly message to Cakewalk is please acquire V-vocal (at any cost) if Roland has no use for it anymore.

 
It's not just the cost of purchase, it's the cost of updating, maintenance, support, and (presumably) conversion to 64-bit operation. By the time those things are out of the way, Melodyne will probably be on version 12, you would have bought it, and you wouldn't care about V-Vocal any more. 
 
I don't think integrating Melodyne "too deeply" into Cakewalk is currently the best plan for offering pitch manipulation options...

 
The ARA protocol has more applications than pitch correction. Most companies recognize the value of this protocol and I suspect that Sonar and Studio One Pro being the only DAWs that support ARA will end (much) sooner rather than later.
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
dubdisciple
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/19 20:53:29 (permalink)
I can't see a small company like cakewalk buying a product that was never deemed marketable enough to sale on a wide scale. If Cakewalk ditches Melodyne I think it is reasonable to assume it would be for a program that is newer or in more common use like Autotune. Especially since the demand seems to so far come from one person. I doubt groovesynth or rmix return to Sonar either in updated versions although I kind of like rmix.
Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/19 21:14:52 (permalink)
And please don't get me wrong..if you adore V-Vocal, that's fine with me. I'm just trying to correct misinformation so people can make decisions based on the reality of the program and the company that produces it, not speculation or a lack of understanding of particular aspects of the program. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
mettelus
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/20 06:18:57 (permalink)
One thing with Melodyne that bothered me is that successive upgrades end up costing more than buying the higher product outright (based on their web page). This was a couple months ago, so not sure if the same; but an upgrade to Studio from Editor was only like $100 off the regular Studio price. That price structure just left me scratching my head and closing the page.

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Sanderxpander
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/20 06:22:35 (permalink)
It sucks having to adjust to a new UI if you were comfortable with the old one, no matter which programs or interfaces you're switching. I recognize that. Personally I'm happier with Melodyne than V-Vocal so I lucked out, I guess. The Melodyne interface, to me, is much more musically relevant - it looks almost like a piano roll so I instantly understand which note is where and what to do with it. This includes rhythmic changes. It's just a lot easier for me to work because I go in thinking "that A is a little flat" or "the F is a little early", and in Melodyne it's instantly visualised. In V-Vocal I always had to spend some time figuring out what was what. So on a very basic musical level I connect with Melodyne much more, even disregarding which buttons to click. I can imagine this is different depending on everyone's musical background.

As for the upgrade price, again, Celemony has been offering the upgrade to Editor to all Sonar users for 150 so far. First it was a standing offer with a set ending date but everyone who asked about it after buying Sonar got it for that price. I was one of the first people to buy the upgrade and they actually refunded me 150 because I paid the full 300, jumping on it about three hours before they started offering the upgrade deal. So I don't see why you or anyone else should pay 350, let alone 600. Also, as far as I know, the first versions of Melodyne, when it really was a niche product and the only in its class, were more like 1500.
RexRed
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/20 14:23:41 (permalink)
Anderton
And please don't get me wrong..if you adore V-Vocal, that's fine with me. I'm just trying to correct misinformation so people can make decisions based on the reality of the program and the company that produces it, not speculation or a lack of understanding of particular aspects of the program. 


If I have misinformation in my understanding of this issue please correct me, I am here to learn and not just spout off misconceptions. Your input is much appreciated.
 
Thanks for the tip on bypassing the welcome screen, I can shut it off in essential too. Not sure why I did not notice it but again thanks.
post edited by RexRed - 2014/07/20 15:25:58
Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/20 14:35:12 (permalink)
RexRed
Anderton
And please don't get me wrong..if you adore V-Vocal, that's fine with me. I'm just trying to correct misinformation so people can make decisions based on the reality of the program and the company that produces it, not speculation or a lack of understanding of particular aspects of the program. 


If I have misinformation in my understanding of this issue please correct me, I am here to learn and not just spout off misconceptions. Your input is much appreciated.




No problem. People should know about things like being able to turn off the welcome screen. They also need to understand the scope and size of the music industry, which is tiny and therefore places significant constraints on companies.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
azslow3
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/20 15:11:10 (permalink)
RexRed
Price: 
US$4,458
20 megabyte app
 
Cel your house, cel your kids, cel your wife to get the mony... :)

The size of my plug-in is 70 kB at the moment.
The source code - ~14000 lines of hand written code.
You can multiply...
 
Reading this thread, I have remembered very old Russian joke. Originally mentioned nationality replaced by X. Pushkin and Dostoevskij are famous Russian writers, just in case...:
 
Yang man from X comes to literature hi school, he wants to learn there:
Teacher : "What do you know about Pushkin?"
Man: "Who is that?"
Teacher : "Hmm... Which books of Dostoevskij you know?"
Man: "Common, I am not a reader, I am  WRITER!"

 

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Skarda
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/21 09:47:21 (permalink)
All I can say is "THE PENCIL TOOL"  Vvocal is my go to tool. Melodyne's issues of artifacts is only the same not better than vvocal. 
1) Vvocal has the pencil to. Great to draw out over dips on unskilled singers. Melodyne does not
2) Vvocal stretches & moves articulation like a champ. Melodyne is average at this.
3) Vvocal has the vibrato tool. great for unskilled singer. To add or calm down vibrato. Melodyne does not.
4) Vvocal is much more simple and intuitive
    I have X3 pro but only use X2 as even in X3, Cake did something weird with Vvocal. It's been a while now but if i recall, it does not save the original track when you bounce Vvocal. Yes there are work arounds, but very annoying to have to make dup track first. Also seems less stable in X3. I will not be upgrading anymore unless Vvocal is included in future versions to work the same as X2. I have always upgraded since version 4 as I enjoy the "latest greatest" but lets face it folks, there's been no improvements to the quality of sound if you simply record the old fashion way using only microphones. It already works great. Everything else is whistles and bells. (which I also enjoy some of those now and then)
 
Some mentioned above about amateur use. Well I hate to break it to them. Most home recorders are amateur. That critique is a bit and pompous. Here's a few reasons people love vocal correction
 - Me (whom is skilled) and likes to record family projects with unskilled singers of nieces, nephews, brother sister etc.
 - The great guitar guitar player, bass player, rhythm player, that need to use his own poor or ave vocals because that's all they've got, but else wise has a great project.
 - The skilled singer that barely need it but want to add that extra shine.
When I was a professional marathon runner in the 80s, I worked in a running shoe store. Guess who was buying 99% of the shoes. You got it, recreational joggers and walkers. (whom I loved to work with). So that's what most shoe companies cater to.  Without the amateurs, Cakewalk or other companies would not exist. 
 
Back to  Melodyne. It's simply not as intuitive and lacks the tools that Vvocal has. Also keep in mind that Melodyne, being a 3rd party company will likely be gone in the future. And even though Vvocal is by Roland many years ago. It was written and packaged for Cake and Cake sort of adopted it as it's own product. So I will be surprised to see it go away...             
I VOTE FOR V-VOCAL...
 
robert_e_bone
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/21 10:12:47 (permalink)
I think the consensus of folks is that whatever tool you wish to use is fine, and it isn't a competition.
 
If you like V-Vocal, have a blast with it.
 
If you like Melodyne, have a blast with it.
 
If you use both, have a blast with both of them.
 
If you use neither, congratulations on perfect pitch, and have a blast using neither of them.
 
Bob Bone
 

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Anderton
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/21 10:38:56 (permalink)
Skarda
1) Vvocal has the pencil to. Great to draw out over dips on unskilled singers. Melodyne does not
3) Vvocal has the vibrato tool. great for unskilled singer. To add or calm down vibrato. Melodyne does not.

 
I'm also a fan of the pencil tool, but FYI, the Editor version has the "pitch drift" tool for (1) and "pitch modulation" tool for (3). However, it can't create "LFO-type" vibrato. For that, it's necessary to insert a vibrato processor into the track and use automation to control the amount. 
 
I have X3 pro but only use X2 as even in X3, Cake did something weird with Vvocal. It's been a while now but if i recall, it does not save the original track when you bounce Vvocal.

 
The original track is always retained until you bounce the V-Vocai or Melodyne clip to itself. What V-Vocal did was create an automatic "safety" copy, which it no longer does.
 
Also seems less stable in X3.

 
For most people it's been more stable, but there do seem to be use cases where V-Vocal "does not play well with others." It seems like maybe this relates to mixes of 32- and 64-bit plugs, or using V-Vocal in Take Lanes mixed with Melodyne. In any event, V-Vocal has had stability issues in general and that's true of operating it within X3 as well.
 
Some mentioned above about amateur use. Well I hate to break it to them. Most home recorders are amateur.



Anyone who thinks professionals don't use pitch correction hasn't been to a recording studio in the past several years. It is used extensively in all forms of music, so I don't see any reason why amateurs shouldn't be able to take advantage of the same tools as well.

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codamedia
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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/21 18:29:04 (permalink)
Skarda
Also keep in mind that Melodyne, being a 3rd party company will likely be gone in the future. It was written and packaged for Cake and Cake sort of adopted it as it's own product. So I will be surprised to see it go away...  

V-Vocal has been forgotten for Roland for many years already. Cakewalk has absolutely no control of it, and no say in the matter. V-Vocal is the "XP" of pitch correction... it may still work, but it's already on borrowed time. 
 
I'm not taking sides on the two products (I refuse to argue over this)... I'm simply stating that if you are looking for a solid future in pitch correction - you may want to re-evaluate your thoughts

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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Re: The End of V-Vocal? 2014/07/21 19:18:11 (permalink)
codamedia
Skarda
Also keep in mind that Melodyne, being a 3rd party company will likely be gone in the future. It was written and packaged for Cake and Cake sort of adopted it as it's own product. So I will be surprised to see it go away...  

V-Vocal has been forgotten for Roland for many years already. Cakewalk has absolutely no control of it, and no say in the matter. V-Vocal is the "XP" of pitch correction... it may still work, but it's already on borrowed time. 
 
I'm not taking sides on the two products (I refuse to argue over this)... I'm simply stating that if you are looking for a solid future in pitch correction - you may want to re-evaluate your thoughts


I think sums up what most have been saying. There has been little talk against Vvocal. Just statement of fact that Cakewalk does not own it and is not likely to buy the code.
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