John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 15:50:37
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microapp
John
I pay what CW requires me to pay. I don't cheat them nor do I cheat myself. Further not everything I said applies to you or anyone really. It was me venting to some degree. I do know of people that do take advantage. Lets just leave it at that.
John, there are always people who will take advantage. Unfortunately, many of them are the movers and shakers of the economy (not intended for Cakewalk).
I wish that the people trying to get over on someone for $100 was our only problem.
We are in agreement.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 16:22:58
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I'm sure there are some people who choose to pay for the upgrade whether they have a specific need or not because they believe the value received over the next year will justify the cost. Couldn't agree more Craig.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 16:28:11
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microapp
Gibson Credit Downgrade
https://www.moodys.com/re...is-negative--PR_344915
http://www.musicrow.com/2...s-to-credit-downgrade/
"Gibson's Caa1 Corporate Family Rating considers its weak liquidity profile, soft credit metrics and the highly discretionary nature of its musical instrument and consumer electronics product lines. Demand for these products was dampened by the deterioration in discretionary consumer spending during the last few years and was exasperated by the poor consumer reception of its 2015 guitar models." But this cuts both ways. The reception to the 2016 guitars has been the complete opposite of last year; both Gibson USA and the Memphis division, the main engines for growth, are doing extraordinarily well and exceeding both Gibson's and retailers' expectations. If you don't believe me, go to any Gibson dealer and ask what's happening with the 2016 guitars. When you have a flop, the "highly discretionary nature" of musical instruments works against you. When you have a hit, it works in your favor.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 16:39:05
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As to previous comments, I don't get the sense anyone is trying to "screw" Cakewalk, they just want to spend the minimal amount necessary to get what they want. There's nothing wrong with that. The people who are not just trying, but actually are screwing Cakewalk, are the ones who use the software without paying.
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
People have very different needs and financial situations. For someone with a Schedule C who makes money from SONAR, the cost is deductible and therefore more affordable. For someone with a daughter in the hospital...the cost of any version of SONAR is probably prohibitive.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 17:07:07
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Anderton
As to previous comments, I don't get the sense anyone is trying to "screw" Cakewalk, they just want to spend the minimal amount necessary to get what they want. There's nothing wrong with that. The people who are not just trying, but actually are screwing Cakewalk, are the ones who use the software without paying.
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
People have very different needs and financial situations. For someone with a Schedule C who makes money from SONAR, the cost is deductible and therefore more affordable. For someone with a daughter in the hospital...the cost of any version of SONAR is probably prohibitive.
True for the most part. However I do know of users that don't pay for Sonar. Not many for sure but I've been here a long time and I get to know some things. Can we just leave it at that?
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mettelus
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 17:41:51
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For me, the crux of this situation has been mentioned briefly, but doesn't often get considered. Most people buy a product for "what it is" at the time of purchase, not for "what it might become." Only service industries can get away with such a strategy, but this would never fly in products - no one will buy a guitar without pickups or a car without tires because they "might come" in the next year. I happen to consider SONAR a product, and since "subscription" gets beaten down readily, others would confirm this.
The mindset of "product in hand" carries significant weight, and this was, in fact, the previous model. Folks knew what X3 had prior to purchase, then decided if they wanted it or not. For folks in a renewal situation they already have 100% at the time of purchase and are paying for the "future," which may or may not contain anything users have requested. A large portion of what users are requesting languishes while things users never requested suddenly pop out of the woodwork, yet there is a lot of lip-service to the community having input.
One thing that occurred to me recently (and what ultimately bothers me) is that SONAR is a host application first and foremost, and as such should be impeccable as a host (i.e., the things no VST can ever do for it). Functionality, usability, exception handling (big one), optimization, et al. should be the #1 priority above all else IMO. Everyone loves a good host.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 17:57:50
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mettelus
Everyone loves a good host.
Especially if there's an open bar 
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 22:57:23
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mettelus
One thing that occurred to me recently (and what ultimately bothers me) is that SONAR is a host application first and foremost, and as such should be impeccable as a host (i.e., the things no VST can ever do for it).
Given this fact, I often think that the cost of Sonar is disproportionally small when compared to the cost of the plugins that are used inside it. Many plugin suites cost much more than the entire purchase price of Sonar. Seems a bit mad! Considering all that it is capable of, outside of personal financial hardship (which whilst unfortunate obviously has nothing to do with Cakewalk), I can't for the life of me understand how people can complain about the cost of Sonar.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 01:05:49
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tenfoot
I can't for the life of me understand how people can complain about the cost of Sonar.
They never had to buy reels of tape
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Snehankur
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 01:22:52
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Anderton
As to previous comments, I don't get the sense anyone is trying to "screw" Cakewalk, they just want to spend the minimal amount necessary to get what they want. There's nothing wrong with that. The people who are not just trying, but actually are screwing Cakewalk, are the ones who use the software without paying.
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
People have very different needs and financial situations. For someone with a Schedule C who makes money from SONAR, the cost is deductible and therefore more affordable. For someone with a daughter in the hospital...the cost of any version of SONAR is probably prohibitive.
Those who goes for torrent download they go by their habit - the price they intend to offer remains always $0. Cakewalk also can have a thought regarding other countries where currency conversion rate is high, need to make some analysis. Regards Snehankur
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RD9
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 02:22:07
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John
There is another reason I like this new model. I feel more involved in the ongoing programing of Sonar. Its as if I'm in there with the team deciding what feature will come next.
.....
Its all in the way one choose to look at things.
I think John makes an important point about why many users enjoy Sonar. The updates/upgrades are now an integral part of their workflow and they like it. In a recent unofficial poll on this Forum more than 2/3 of the respondents said they preferred the Monthly update approach to Quarterly or Yearly. With respect to the value for money; I agree with those above who suggested we take a look at the year as a whole since we are really paying for a year; I suspect that most users, myself included, would find that Cakewalk has given us our money's worth. In my case, however, I do not enjoy the monthly disruptions and would like my DAW to stay stagnant for a year (except for bug fixes) so I can get on with things. I am well aware of Craig's argument that we don't need to update but remember, if you don't update then 1) the Forum becomes less useful since most users will have moved on and 2) you can't get the bug fixes alone. For this reason, and for the improved MIDI editing capability (IMHO), I am slowly moving my work into Cubase. There are a lot of very good DAWs on the market and Sonar is one of them. It is then a matter of preference. Cheers
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 03:16:29
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Anderton
tenfoot
I can't for the life of me understand how people can complain about the cost of Sonar.
They never had to buy reels of tape
Haha - oh so very true!
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 05:41:39
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mettelus
For me, the crux of this situation has been mentioned briefly, but doesn't often get considered. Most people buy a product for "what it is" at the time of purchase, not for "what it might become." Only service industries can get away with such a strategy, but this would never fly in products - no one will buy a guitar without pickups or a car without tires because they "might come" in the next year. I happen to consider SONAR a product, and since "subscription" gets beaten down readily, others would confirm this.
Basically how I work also, what is there as new when I pay again decides - and started this thread because of it and to see if I was the odd one or if there is good feedback for Cakewalk how to proceed. I felt I was a bit like Scrooge McDuck - just waiting in the car for the parking meter to expire, since he paid for it. Looking at upgrade options when patchpoints came, and no alternative since I had four months paid updates still on Artist. So membership kept me from updating to Professional. So maybe some discount when you do overlapping upgrades or something like that is the psychology of the wallet. And when time to renew/upgrade - knowing patchpoints are there, the news had cooled off somehow. And looking for good enough notation all summer and fall, I had gone for another daw already. mettelus
One thing that occurred to me recently (and what ultimately bothers me) is that SONAR is a host application first and foremost, and as such should be impeccable as a host (i.e., the things no VST can ever do for it). Functionality, usability, exception handling (big one), optimization, et al. should be the #1 priority above all else IMO. Everyone loves a good host.
I would reason that way too, since I already have all plugins I need in the foreseeable future. The daw is a holder of clips and plugins - and assist in making edits to finalize result and workflow for doing that decides which daw is preferred. Since plugins are the tools for creating your sound more than anything - the daw can be replaced more easily if plugins are 3rd party and not stock plugins. So core daw features are important. But product line is rather sensible still, I find. Really good value entry point with Artist, with Professional all features almost without paying for too many plugins and libraries, and then Platinum for those that like as many plugins and libraries they can get. And to keep flagship Platinum members happy they have to release new plugin stuff all the time - which seems to be much appreciated too. But since my approach is headroom/freedom and flexibility having plugins 3rd party - I feel some resistance when more plugin stuff is added than core daw features. That said, 2015 was incredible still in daw improvements - mixrecall, upsampling and patchpoints biggies to me. So I keep one eye open to see what arrives in Sonar in future.
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pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 06:14:11
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mettelus
Should retitle this thread "Why no VCAs in SONAR?" The OP and where it is truly focused are misleading. Nice original title, but this thread is VCAs.
respectfully disagree - the thread title matches the op, and the op repeatedly asked posters to stay on topic, but yet again the usual suspects have steered the thread off course, onto VCAs, even when the op is repeatedly pointing out the VCA thread on F&R forum (which is where it should be)... hosts especially are supposed to keep threads on topic!
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pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 06:44:19
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Anderton
microapp
Gibson Credit Downgrade
https://www.moodys.com/re...is-negative--PR_344915
http://www.musicrow.com/2...s-to-credit-downgrade/
"Gibson's Caa1 Corporate Family Rating considers its weak liquidity profile, soft credit metrics and the highly discretionary nature of its musical instrument and consumer electronics product lines. Demand for these products was dampened by the deterioration in discretionary consumer spending during the last few years and was exasperated by the poor consumer reception of its 2015 guitar models."
a slight misunderstanding there i think, which gives subtly different meaning. The statement is " highly discretionary nature of its musical instrument and consumer electronics product lines." so not just musical instruments. It was exacerbated ("made worse") by the poor performance of instruments and electronics, not caused by it. So your follow up comments about guitars are made irrelevant by that misunderstanding Gibson only just bought Philips consumer electronics 2 years ago, and it's failing already? And this is/was done by the guy brought in from Philips to oversee this, no wonder he's out already Ignoring the " weak liquidity" and " soft credit metrics" comment makes it seem you think the whole situation is caused solely by last year's guitar models, which seems a stretch as best. Do you honestly think that? I think getting into arguing the business side of things in a music forum might not be the best approach, and at the very least should be in the coffee house... aota is fwiw/imo, etc
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azslow3
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 09:04:03
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Anderton
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
What about that: "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I paid for, I'm just going to a torrent and get the stuff which is not calling home and say I am not legit user". That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar. THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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mettelus
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 09:54:48
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/04/30 11:16:00
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
A few ancillary comments, the first triggered by the above. - Field failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising. *If* I relied on any income or had clients relying on me to do things for them, the DEMO-mode issue would scare the crap out of me (gross understatement actually). The decision to make support more difficult just adds fuel to this fire. Of all the people to tick off, you hit one who is busting his ass to make SONAR better for free - congratulations.
- "Innovation" gets thrown around so much anymore that the word has lost meaning. For me it has fallen into the same bin as "gimmick;" but the extension of it (which is truly fearful in business) is "disruptive innovation," specifically those things that already exist or have existed for a long time. My personal favorite is Wii - technology that existed for decades - created to tap a market of gamers never tapped before (older and female). Highly successful and cheap as dirt, so cheap that they made profit on the simple sale of the initial unit, where all competition sold the unit as a loss and "hoped" to sell games to make up for it. From a SONAR perspective, tempo maps could have been introduced in X3, and been extended to "map track to master" similar to AS - syncing audio to MIDI is a thorn everyone deals with at some point, and the "innovation" has been there.
- Listening to the users. I had posted a video regarding listening/conversation earlier, and the real point to the entire video is "Most people listen to respond, they do not listen to understand." Unfortunately, when those listening to respond are also biased to that response, they will never understand... they assume what they didn't hear and cater their response accordingly; in essence, no "conversation" ever took place... as the video stated "You are just two people talking remotely related topics with each other." Simple advice, if a user tells you they want something, they will pay you for it... Astute advice, if a company listens and takes it one step further (i.e., exceed expectations), they create a fierecely loyal customer base that grows exponentially... by word of mouth.
There isn't anyone who offers feedback here in hopes to see Cakewalk fail!!! Yet the ones driving this train in that direction continue to attack these people who are investing their time in "hope" of being not only heard, but listened to. Once that resource goes "offline," surveys aren't going to cut it one iota.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 10:39:57
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azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!
Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.
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mettelus
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 10:59:08
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Anderton
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!
Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.
Unless I misconstrued Alexey's other post, this did occur in the April release. Only he can confirm such.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 11:23:30
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If there is going to be any kind of envelope linking at all I would really like it if it extended beyond just volume. E.g. when I need to automate a Sonitus delay or a Z3TA+ dual filter I always have to create two curves even though the delay L/R side or Z3TA+ filters are linked. I would really like a better way to do this and I don't think "traditional" VCA faders are the solution.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 11:28:34
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mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising. I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces. True story: Steinberg once had a copy protection system that involved random, periodic insertion of your distribution CD. At one Frankfurt show I was told by a Steinberg representative they were so afraid of needing to authorize the program during demos they all used Cubase cracks. During the early days of iLok, where it could wipe out your C: drive if you tried to install a new program while having out of date drivers (it happened to me), one computer builder would replace your legit Waves plug-ins with cracks if you provided proof you had purchased them. Do I hate having a program go dead during a workshop? Of course. However copy protection uses code and code can have bugs. I do think that if companies are going to make any aspect of a program bullet-proof, it should be ensuring that any protection scheme doesn’t inconvenience legitimate users. From a SONAR perspective, tempo maps could have been introduced in X3, and been extended to "map track to master" similar to AS - syncing audio to MIDI is a thorn everyone deals with at some point, and the "innovation" has been there. Are you sure about that? I think there had to be changes in ARA to make it possible, and both Cakewalk and PreSonus have worked closely with Celemony to extend ARA. I’m actually rather surprised they remain the only two companies to really jump on ARA. Listening to the users. I can assure you Cakewalk listens, but that doesn’t mean they have the ability, time, or resources to implement what people want. Many of the requests in this forum are things Cakewalk itself wants to implement but can’t at the present time for one reason or another. There isn't anyone who offers feedback here in hopes to see Cakewalk fail!!! Yet the ones driving this train in that direction continue to attack these people who are investing their time in "hope" of being not only heard, but listened to. Once that resource goes "offline," surveys aren't going to cut it one iota. I think the impatience comes with threads whose premise is “I’m not going to renew/I’m going to switch because SONAR doesn’t do something I want it to do.” There are plenty of DAWs out there. If you want a MIDI implementation with VST Expression, there’s Cubase. If you want an audio engine that won’t stop unless you drop your laptop on a concrete floor, there’s Ableton Live. If you want to be able to tell clients you use Pro Tools…there’s Pro Tools. But all DAW forums are filled with feature requests that will never be implemented. Unfortunately, you can't have it all, so you have to decide what comes closest to meeting your needs. It’s a competitive market. Cakewalk does what it can to compete with the resources it has, and they're working hard at reversing the downward spiral that existed for years before the company was purchased. However take the case of VCAs, since it was mentioned as something sufficiently important that it might cause someone to switch. I genuinely didn’t understand what VCAs did that was so important, but I wanted to know. After listening to what people said n this thread, it sure seemed to me it wasn’t that huge a deal, so it sure wouldn’t cause me to switch…but if someone absolutely needs VCA-style grouping, well, there are programs that do that. Or take the thread about “jumping ship” because SONAR lacked a particular integration that Studio One supposedly had. But dig deeper, and you’ll find that the touted integration doesn’t yet exist. By the time it becomes available to the public in SOP, I’d bet SONAR will have it too. So yes—listening is crucial, but when there are thousands of people talking at once, it’s also important to differentiate between the signal and the noise. A legitimate user having SONAR go into demo mode is not just signal, but a loud and serious one. On the other hand I think for a lot of people, talking about switching to another DAW because it offers VCA grouping is noise. But that’s just my opinion…and it may be noise. Or it may be signal.
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azslow3
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 12:11:26
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mettelus
Anderton
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!
Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.
Unless I misconstrued Alexey's other post, this did occur in the April release. Only he can confirm such.
Yes, the latest release. I have cooled down, took a break and I have recorded the video. But I am not going to take any single word back. Under no condition user friendly software should switch into DEMO mode in the middle of a session. It can crash, it can ask to restart, all that is ok. But not accuse the user to be a pirate! Anderton
mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising.
I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces.
That means that CakeWalk is also just a "normal" commercial company, which tries to protect OWN property and easily sacrifice users experience for that. No, it is not worse then other. It is THE SAME as other. The point is about "special spirit and friendliness" of CakeWalk, discussed in this thread early. They HAD it. That is why I am here. But that time is over. Lets see facts: new online activation for Z3TA2 "update" (the first what hit me in that line, since was completely unexpected), "goodby" normal phone support, "Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 13:29:26
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azslow3
"goodby" normal phone support Support is a situation where there can be a cluster of calls when people aren't taken care of, or put on hold for an excessive period of time, and then long periods of time when no one calls. I really don't see the problem with the current phone support model; you still get free phone support, and because you choose a time to be called back you don't have to wait on hold. Seems like an improvement to me, but I don't use support so I don't know what the difference is between what it was and what it is. The ideal approach would be to have enough support people to answer everyone with 30 seconds, and Cakewalk could do that if they outsourced support (and they'd save money, too). However, I think the positive experience of being able to call at any time and get the phone answered quickly would be offset by the negative experience of outsourced support that wouldn't know much about the program and have to "escalate" to Cakewalk, causing further delay. "Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then. They don't want to be, and AFAIC "Demo Mode" in the middle of a session is unacceptable. It's troubling that they thought it was fixed in this update and it wasn't.
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azslow3
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 14:12:24
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Anderton
azslow3
"goodby" normal phone support
Support is a situation where there can be a cluster of calls when people aren't taken care of, or put on hold for an excessive period of time, and then long periods of time when no one calls. I really don't see the problem with the current phone support model; you still get free phone support, and because you choose a time to be called back you don't have to wait on hold. Seems like an improvement to me, but I don't use support so I don't know what the difference is between what it was and what it is.
I have used support only ones, but exactly for the case like in http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3407379I mean in case for some reason you can not see Platinum in your account, you can not schedule phone support. So, account questions (you can not login, you do not see the produce) and questions about money (you have paid for something, but it is "not there") have NO phone support now. I have mentioned that when the change was announced. For the case something does not work as expected, current model is may be better. But for the case "it does not work at all", which can be significantly more annoying, there is no support at all. They could make "real time" support for "accounts and sales question only", no specialists required, that is common practice. I remember the feeling when I could not login to see my registration number right after my "new" X1(or X2, X3... do not remember) installation. I have used this forum and I got help pretty quick. But many people do not use forums (and they can not send PM to CW in case you was not active in the forum before), e-mail support "speed" is well known, so what should they do in this new support schema?
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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ampfixer
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 14:27:46
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I don't like it when somebody changes the status quo to make their life better and spins it as a change to make your life better. Pretty easy to see through that nonsense.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 19:02:13
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azslow3
mettelus
Anderton
azslow3
That just has happened to me... DEMO MODE. I am not a "pro", so I was not on stage and I was not working with clients. I was recording a tutorial how to use Control Surfaces with Sonar.
THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. I have paid for Sonar upright, but they still "checking" me all the time. So the claim "if you pay for Sonar upright you can use it as long as you want" is NOT true! Sonar will continue to check and any time its buggy code think I am a "bad boy" it immediately pop-up with "Demo mode. Contact support.". THEY DO NOT TRUST ME. And after that, should I trust they deliver something useful "next year"? Should I think "they are nice"? "Support" them? Sorry, NO!
Yes, I agree that really sucks, and it has happened to more people than you. However to be fair it was a bug that was in the list of fixes for the April release so hopefully that's the end of it.
Unless I misconstrued Alexey's other post, this did occur in the April release. Only he can confirm such.
Yes, the latest release.
I have cooled down, took a break and I have recorded the video. But I am not going to take any single word back. Under no condition user friendly software should switch into DEMO mode in the middle of a session. It can crash, it can ask to restart, all that is ok. But not accuse the user to be a pirate!
Anderton
mettelusField failures are the #1 way for a company to give itself a black eye and create negative marketing that can never be "bought" back, specifically word-of-mouth advertising.
I agree completely. I've been bitten more than once, like not being able to locate a CD-ROM that needed to be inserted periodically…very bad if you’re in the middle of giving a workshop. Thankfully copy protection is becoming less intrusive but as long as people steal software, companies will try to figure out ways to prevent that. It’s sobering to see the sales figures for interfaces compared to the software people run on them. If people aren’t stealing software, then I guess there are just a lot of folks who like to collect hardware interfaces.
That means that CakeWalk is also just a "normal" commercial company, which tries to protect OWN property and easily sacrifice users experience for that. No, it is not worse then other. It is THE SAME as other.
The point is about "special spirit and friendliness" of CakeWalk, discussed in this thread early. They HAD it. That is why I am here. But that time is over.
Lets see facts: new online activation for Z3TA2 "update" (the first what hit me in that line, since was completely unexpected), "goodby" normal phone support, "Demo mode" in the middle of a session. They want to be like Steinberg and iLock? Fine. But they can expect proportional reaction then.
Alexey, I had replied to your other post in the problem reports area. This thread is not a good place to put issues. Anyway, you are right this shouldn't happen. I had asked you in your other post what error codes if any you got as well as emailed you directly. I saw you posted you didn't recall the codes. Ok, I'd like to help but can't directly without some more info. Need to know what error codes if any appeared on that contact support toast. So if anyone else has gotten this, reply in the problem reports post. Otherwise, I've been investigating in the dark to try and find how it might have occurred while you had the project going. I ran for an hour and didn't get into calls that might fail to lead to this condition. Keith
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RD9
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 21:17:56
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ampfixer
I don't like it when somebody changes the status quo to make their life better and spins it as a change to make your life better. Pretty easy to see through that nonsense.
This is a very good way to describe a phenomenon that we encounter all too often in our daily lives and was my perception of the Monthly Updates; it has been noted by some of the members who program for a living that putting out small changes has some advantages to the programmers and it is clear that CW marketing favours this approach so they have something new to sell continuously, rather than once a year. However, I must also concede that the Monthly Update approach appeals to a number of users so it may be that CW perceived this as a benefit to users as well. It has zero appeal to me though.
post edited by RD9 - 2016/04/30 23:40:33
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/30 23:42:03
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RD9
It has zero appeal to me though.
Remember part of the reason for going to monthly updates is so there wouldn't be a "cutoff" on bug fixes and optimizations because CW had to start working on the next "big" release. I think most people have noticed the speed increase, it's nice not to have to wait for that kind of improvement. To me one advantage is not having to learn a bunch of stuff all at once. Also features like patch points, upsampling, the new "mastering" plug-ins, and Drum Replacer to name a few were immensely beneficial and put to use immediately in projects. I'm just as glad I didn't have to wait.
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BMOG
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/05/01 01:08:13
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Anderton
As to previous comments, I don't get the sense anyone is trying to "screw" Cakewalk, they just want to spend the minimal amount necessary to get what they want. There's nothing wrong with that. The people who are not just trying, but actually are screwing Cakewalk, are the ones who use the software without paying.
If someone said "Well since Cakewalk won't give me what I want at the price I want to pay, I'm just going to go to a torrent and get the stuff for free," that would be a very different matter altogether.
People have very different needs and financial situations. For someone with a Schedule C who makes money from SONAR, the cost is deductible and therefore more affordable. For someone with a daughter in the hospital...the cost of any version of SONAR is probably prohibitive.
SPOT ON!! +10
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BMOG
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/05/05 09:05:49
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Anderton There is, as long as you buy plug-ins from someone else. You can buy a linear phase multiband compressor from Waves for $149. Don't know what version of SONAR you have, but given that you can upgrade to SONAR Platinum from X3 Producer for $149 and that gets you the LP MB, LP EQ, and a years' worth of update, it seems like a better deal than going a la carte with a different manufacturer. Artist, Platinum, or Professional? There are different update costs for each. Artist to Professional is $99, renewing Platinum for another year is $149. Either way it's a better deal than buying a single plug-in a la carte. ******************************************************************************************** I think this is close to LP MB for $29, maybe CW should adopt Waves logic here every so often offer plugins individually for a price that brings in buyers. Selling alot of a product a little cheaper is better than selling fewer products at full price. Just thought I would share http://www.waves.com/plugins/c4-multiband-compressor?utm_source=wnletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=gui&utm_campaign=c4-multiband-compressor-sale#vocal-multiband-compression-with-C4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s3yU14xpJ8
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