Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 09:53:58
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Several subscription possibilities have been proposed in this thread that 1) I would find superior to the Adobe model, and more importantly, 2) I would find superior to the current model of selling software.
Also brconflict's comments about support got me thinking. If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 10:53:50
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/11/10 12:07:35
Anderton
dcasey
Hey Cakewalk/Tascam/Gibson - whoever might be reading this stuff; I've been a Cakewalk customer since Pro Audio, and at this point a gentle nudge would send me into the arms of another vendor. Cakewalk moving to a subscription model would be more like a punch in the nose, and if I'm going to bleed - I might as well bleed all over Studio One or Pro Tools (for all the wrong reasons).
That should give you a good indication of what I think about a Cakewalk subscription. No thanks.
Why do some people automatically assume that if Cakewalk was going to do something like a subscription model, it would be the crappiest, most customer-hostile model possible? Remember, this is a company that steadfastly refuses to use intrusive copy protection methods like dongles. It's a little disappointing a small company that trusts its customers (and put out five rapid-fire, free updates to X3) doesn't get some trust back in return.
The software world is a tough place to carve out a piece of the pie. Cakewalk is the kind of company that understands the way to get a bigger slice of the pie is to...cook a better-tasting pie.
Yes, I agree. This speculation is based on nothing more than a survey question. We've always been customer focused and doing surveys is a way for us to ensure we are meeting the needs of customers. On a more positive note, the satisfaction level with customers using X3 was off the charts, which again shows we addressed many of the concerns with SONAR in the latest release. You can be assured we'll be doing the same for future releases. Our goal, as always, is to have happy customers.
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:06:31
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Anderton
If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
I like that idea. And it would be best to add features in the form of patches vs. total new installs. That way, the user doesn't have to re-download the entire Sonar sub-version.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:11:52
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brconflict
Anderton
If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
I like that idea. And it would be best to add features in the form of patches vs. total new installs. That way, the user doesn't have to re-download the entire Sonar sub-version.
Again, duly noted. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. They hint that perhaps the biggest problem with subscription software isn't the concept, but how companies are implementing it.
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Splat 
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:19:29
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Sounds good in theory. But the only feasible way to release 'one feature at a time' is to get rid of the backlog first. I've been involved in QA projects under the banner 'release often, release early' and it was a nightmare (but it is the norm!). The reality is that QA can only do so much with limited resources, and you rely on your customers finding at least 25% of the bugs or design problems whether they like it or not. That's why customers and QA always need to 'partner up' to progress..
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:32:34
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CakeAlexS
Sounds good in theory. But the only feasible way to release 'one feature at a time' is to get rid of the backlog first. I've been involved in QA projects under the banner 'release often, release early' and it was a nightmare (but it is the norm!). The reality is that QA can only do so much with limited resorces, and you rely on your customers finding at least 25% of the bugs whether they like it or not. That's why customers and QA always need to 'partner up' to progress..
I definitely like the thought of teaming up QA. What I always want to see is a way that users can suggest possible issues, and rather than having to navigate through a complex technical reporting process and uncontrolled testing that could ultimately result in not-duplicated or redundant, the QA team or Support could ask, "Do you see the issue when you do { this}?" to hone in on an issue to see if it's either related to another open issue, or if { this} makes the symptom go away. I never saw that in my experience. In the Telecomm/Data industry I grew up in, Engineering would ask those questions because they already know what the symptom *might* be related to, especially if something's changed in that area. Having that interface, even through an agent would allow unreported issues to flourish and be revealed where users otherwise would just have no incentive to report something odd. In my case, I became disenfranchised to the response (or lack thereof) to any potential bug reports I would submit. It only takes one or two reports to feel they are not really being reviewed. I know they are, but I had no way of knowing if I submitted one correctly, or if it was even useful.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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backwoods
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:37:40
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I wish Cakewalk would start a new, fresh DAW. Project 5 v3- all new code.
Veterans like Noel must be frustrated bumping against the flaws in the decades long design. "If I could do it all again- this is how I'd do it" :)
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 15:42:41
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backwoods
I wish Cakewalk would start a new, fresh DAW. Project 5 v3- all new code.
Veterans like Noel must be frustrated bumping against the flaws in the decades long design. "If I could do it all again- this is how I'd do it" :)
Maybe it might be easier with a Subscription model, where the current software can remain, meanwhile a whole new DAW could be developed under the same model, so that, if it fails, nobody is really out any purchase costs, and the duality in the two platforms could exist so people could try it out as it's being developed. This is much like the Minecraft way of developing. They released the platform to people with the disclaimer that "this is still under development". Assuming Sonar's current train is nearing a dead-end or something.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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bz2838
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 16:14:45
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Anderton
brconflict
Anderton
If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
I like that idea. And it would be best to add features in the form of patches vs. total new installs. That way, the user doesn't have to re-download the entire Sonar sub-version.
Again, duly noted. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. They hint that perhaps the biggest problem with subscription software isn't the concept, but how companies are implementing it.
Sorry guys, I disagree, when I put my money down, I want to own the license, I may want to cancel a subscription for some reason, and if I do, I still want to be able to use the software I paid for.
Purrrfect Audio: Intel i7 7700k (Kabylake), 32Gig DDR4/2133, Windows 10x64 Pro, USB RME Babyface, Sonar Platinum Current
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 16:29:48
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bz2838
Anderton
brconflict
Anderton
If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
I like that idea. And it would be best to add features in the form of patches vs. total new installs. That way, the user doesn't have to re-download the entire Sonar sub-version.
Again, duly noted. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. They hint that perhaps the biggest problem with subscription software isn't the concept, but how companies are implementing it.
Sorry guys, I disagree, when I put my money down, I want to own the license, I may want to cancel a subscription for some reason, and if I do, I still want to be able to use the software I paid for.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, could be there's still an option to do that, but you'd not get the latest updates when they are ready, you'd have to wait for the next full release.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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einstein36
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 17:21:45
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
Anderton
dcasey
Hey Cakewalk/Tascam/Gibson - whoever might be reading this stuff; I've been a Cakewalk customer since Pro Audio, and at this point a gentle nudge would send me into the arms of another vendor. Cakewalk moving to a subscription model would be more like a punch in the nose, and if I'm going to bleed - I might as well bleed all over Studio One or Pro Tools (for all the wrong reasons).
That should give you a good indication of what I think about a Cakewalk subscription. No thanks.
Why do some people automatically assume that if Cakewalk was going to do something like a subscription model, it would be the crappiest, most customer-hostile model possible? Remember, this is a company that steadfastly refuses to use intrusive copy protection methods like dongles. It's a little disappointing a small company that trusts its customers (and put out five rapid-fire, free updates to X3) doesn't get some trust back in return.
The software world is a tough place to carve out a piece of the pie. Cakewalk is the kind of company that understands the way to get a bigger slice of the pie is to...cook a better-tasting pie.
Yes, I agree. This speculation is based on nothing more than a survey question. We've always been customer focused and doing surveys is a way for us to ensure we are meeting the needs of customers. On a more positive note, the satisfaction level with customers using X3 was off the charts, which again shows we addressed many of the concerns with SONAR in the latest release. You can be assured we'll be doing the same for future releases. Our goal, as always, is to have happy customers.
So....to switch gears since it's in the title....:) here it is November already and just wondering when is the new Sonar release going to be released(or announced)? Is Cakewalk going to mention anything at the beginning of December?? Thanks guys..Looking forward to upgrading to the newest version:)
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 17:26:28
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 17:47:22
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bz2838
Anderton
brconflict
Anderton
If features were introduced sequentially, CW could concentrate on in-depth support of that particular feature and then move on to the next one when it's introduced. It seems this would make the learning curve flatter, users would have a more in-depth knowledge of each new feature as it appears, and support personnel could hone their skills on a particular feature without distractions.
I like that idea. And it would be best to add features in the form of patches vs. total new installs. That way, the user doesn't have to re-download the entire Sonar sub-version.
Again, duly noted. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. They hint that perhaps the biggest problem with subscription software isn't the concept, but how companies are implementing it.
Sorry guys, I disagree, when I put my money down, I want to own the license, I may want to cancel a subscription for some reason, and if I do, I still want to be able to use the software I paid for.
What exactly are you disagreeing with? The exchange you quoted doesn't say anything about software expiring, only about the optimum way to deliver updates to software.
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bz2838
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 18:37:02
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As long as the software I paid for does not expire, then I would not have any objections.
Purrrfect Audio: Intel i7 7700k (Kabylake), 32Gig DDR4/2133, Windows 10x64 Pro, USB RME Babyface, Sonar Platinum Current
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 19:44:51
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brconflict
I definitely like the thought of teaming up QA. What I always want to see is a way that users can suggest possible issues, and rather than having to navigate through a complex technical reporting process and uncontrolled testing that could ultimately result in not-duplicated or redundant, the QA team or Support could ask, "Do you see the issue when you do {this}?" to hone in on an issue to see if it's either related to another open issue, or if {this} makes the symptom go away. I never saw that in my experience.
In the Telecomm/Data industry I grew up in, Engineering would ask those questions because they already know what the symptom *might* be related to, especially if something's changed in that area. Having that interface, even through an agent would allow unreported issues to flourish and be revealed where users otherwise would just have no incentive to report something odd. In my case, I became disenfranchised to the response (or lack thereof) to any potential bug reports I would submit. It only takes one or two reports to feel they are not really being reviewed. I know they are, but I had no way of knowing if I submitted one correctly, or if it was even useful.
"Do you see the issue when you do { this}?" to hone in on an issue to see if it's either related to another open issue, or if { this} makes the symptom go away. I never saw that in my experience." What you are asking here is for QA to do a technical support or troubleshooting role which is a different matter altogether. There seems to be a lot of confusion around this, QA is mainly concerned about reproducible issues and test cases otherwise they generally prefer to hand over to support (unless they can clearly see a real bug in front of them). The big reason why QA shys away from tech support and troubleshooting is trying to make best use of time, there is a lot to do like testing new products and builds, or testing actual reprodicible issues. If an issue is already reproducible then that can be passed straight onto the developers. The best way to see if an issue is reproducable or not (and I would add, find out if what you and I write is understandable to others) is to check it here in these forums or ring tech support. I do agree though that the problem report mechanism needs some review in terms of getting feedback. I'm still awaiting clarification myself. We have a problem reports forums however we haven't seen much of QA yet (I better not speculate as to why otherwise people might be thinking X4 is around the corner! :) ). From what I gather Cakewalk will be more proactive in the problem report forums in future.. After X4 is released I suspect they will be all over it.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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ampfixer
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:00:01
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Dealing with complaints and issues after a product release is not really QA. It is dealing with external non-conformance. During development, the identification of bad code or bugs would be internal non-conformance management.
QA in software development would describe the procedures and policies around making changes. How are proposed changes approved, implemented, verified and documented.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:08:36
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To be clear I'm refering to a 'QA team' rather than analyse the process itself. Others may refer to it as the software testing team or whatever. It is generally the job of QA to test submitted bug reports but leave the troubleshooting to support unless they can see milage (that of course is not their sole task). Employeees in small companies may wear multiple 'hats' and do support and QA (or non conformance as you say) of course. Ultimately it's getting developers to fix actual bugs and making best use of their time. Oh and making sure they behave! :)
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:15:18
(permalink)
As I posted earlier:
We use software that costs an initial amount. And then we can purchase a support "subscription" if we like.
When the support period ends the software does NOT turn into a pumpkin. But we do not get any updates.
Renewing the one-year support subscription provides immediate access to all recent updates.
Three issues: mostly not related
initial cost
how to pay
frequency of updates
The business dudes who use this software understand the differences, the implications, the internal costs and benefits. The hobbyist do not get it. Especially the way young.
I have to have a current license to install updates. The license confirmation is included in the initial installation.
And of course, an update will not install if the license is not current. How can this be wrong?
For a while users had to log in to get the updates. I see this as a realistic requirement.
Currently CW sells VERSION subscriptions. For X3 we got 6 versions of the software, over about 6 months. With support for at least a year (at this point). Non of the versions will stop working at midnight of the day the new version is released. Relax!
I think Sonar is way too inexpensive. AND:: Many of us will pay more to receive more attention.
I will happily pay more to help the CW dudes to no longer be caught in this cycle of yearly new-version-for-the-holidays insanity.
The best DAW on the planet is so cheap that many of the people who purchase it continue to complain about how they will no longer use CW products if the price structure is changed.
$150 A YEAR AND YOU ARE COMPLAINING????????????
BE GONE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You spend more on your computers, and electricity, car insurance, and gas, than you do on this software.
Don't want to pay a reasonable amount for a Maserati? BUY A FORD!!!!!!!!!
I get to play with noises about 6 hours per week. Sonar, Dimension Pro, Session drummer, Audio Snap, VVocal, Addictive drums, Zeta,.... cost me about 48 cents per hour.
ALLLLLL versions of Sonar are less than half what they should cost, especially for upgrades.
Increasing price will immediately change the general perception of the value of the product.
Will this reduce number of users? YES!!! Happily!
(Marketing 101: the cheaper the price the more support requests.)
$150 per year is essentially free. Get a clue! Buy a vowel!
Also: I favor a tiered pricing structure: use the software for business all day long, every day, pay more. Just like electric service. Use more, pay more.
Don't get me started.
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:20:38
(permalink)
bz2838
Sorry guys, I disagree, when I put my money down, I want to own the license, I may want to cancel a subscription for some reason, and if I do, I still want to be able to use the software I paid for.
A license is a non-exclusive, restricted, grant of use. No ownership involved. i figger most of us do not want to be riding in a pumpkin when the clock strikes 12. And I doubt the CW managers would ever make it so.
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:26:12
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"Will this reduce number of users? YES!!! Happily!"
" (Marketing 101: the cheaper the price the more support requests.)"
Hmm if that's the case might as well sell it to 100 people and charge them £250,000 :).
Remember we are dealing in an age where people expect either an app to be free or a few dollars at most, just like buying your music (no wonder the economy is screwed). There are the other terms "elasticity of demand", "scalability", "value for money". Reliability also a crucial factor for DAW software.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 20:31:37
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"Just like electric service. Use more, pay more."
I'm not sure what it's like in other countries but in the UK over the last decade it's been a case of use less pay more year after year! Of course they use doublespeak to try to make us think otherwise.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 21:35:31
(permalink)
CakeAlexS
"Will this reduce number of users? YES!!! Happily!"
" (Marketing 101: the cheaper the price the more support requests.)"
Hmm if that's the case might as well sell it to 100 people and charge them £250,000 :).
Remember we are dealing in an age where people expect either an app to be free or a few dollars at most, just like buying your music (no wonder the economy is screwed). There are the other terms "elasticity of demand", "scalability", "value for money". Reliability also a crucial factor for DAW software.
Yes. Raise prices, have fewer customers. Thousands of examples of all types of viable businesses at all the price points for all products and services. Why must CW play to the cheap seats because all the others are? Market share is not the goal. Profit is. My wife's business is considered the best dance studio in the area. And to continue to be so they charge more. And pay the teachers more. And the teachers are professional, and good, and continue to be so. My car guy's business has always charged more than others in the area. They have significant loyalty from customers and employees. The work is always good. Charge more, spend less on supporting fewer customers, pay more attention to product. I do not want CW to be the walmart of DAWs. I would prefer CW to be similar to Talbots. More expensive. More exclusive. More desirable. But, I am an old guy who has prolly read too many business magazines, and books, and attended too many seminars, to really have any idea about how organizations learn to be great. Great way to increase market share: Charge for license transfer: new customers without marketing expense. Total profit.
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 21:45:52
(permalink)
CakeAlexS
"Just like electric service. Use more, pay more."
I'm not sure what it's like in other countries but in the UK over the last decade it's been a case of use less pay more year after year! Of course they use doublespeak to try to make us think otherwise.
Nearly from the beginning all energy suppliers have been significantly tax subsidized. Both from direct government support and transfer of pollution costs to health care costs, and black/brown field remediation. Same for the auto industry, the most subsidized industry in human history. That prices are increasing during our lifetime, that we get to clean-up the mess from excessive use is directly related to prices being too low because of the subsidies and transferred pollution provided for and allowed by our parents and grandparents. But I still think those that use the software for primary income should pay more than those who do not.
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 21:48:23
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Hmm become pro tools I think is what you are saying, they might already have a market share :). My view would be "be different" and find the gap in the market (I already feel Sonar fills it but it of course could always be better). There is a LOT of competiton however.
I know there are plenty more ways to be scalable (inc support), and sorry I disagree, number of customers does not necessarily mean more support nowadays with technology (there is a curve)/and I actually prefer Sonar to Pro Tools in most instances.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 22:00:00
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YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
CakeAlexS
"Just like electric service. Use more, pay more."
I'm not sure what it's like in other countries but in the UK over the last decade it's been a case of use less pay more year after year! Of course they use doublespeak to try to make us think otherwise.
Nearly from the beginning all energy suppliers have been significantly tax subsidized. Both from direct government support and transfer of pollution costs to health care costs, and black/brown field remediation. Same for the auto industry, the most subsidized industry in human history. That prices are increasing during our lifetime, that we get to clean-up the mess from excessive use is directly related to prices being too low because of the subsidies and transferred pollution provided for and allowed by our parents and grandparents.
But I still think those that use the software for primary income should pay more than those who do not.
Yup generally all makes sense until you get to look at their profit margins offset against their investment and tax breaks. Smoke and mirrors sadly! Also lack of competition and price fixing where there is. Anyway I digress :) Back to topic sorry..
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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azslow3
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/11 05:31:04
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Updates for subscribers only have small problem... Bug fixes should be release for everyone since the (broken) functionality is in the initial advertizement/price. With such model, it is 2 versions parallel support: bug fixes for the old one and the main line. We could observe that CW is not releasing updates for previous version (have not seen X2u update after X3 release), so such approach requires significant work flow change.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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bz2838
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/11 09:59:55
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YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
bz2838
Sorry guys, I disagree, when I put my money down, I want to own the license, I may want to cancel a subscription for some reason, and if I do, I still want to be able to use the software I paid for.
A license is a non-exclusive, restricted, grant of use. No ownership involved.
i figger most of us do not want to be riding in a pumpkin when the clock strikes 12.
And I doubt the CW managers would ever make it so.
A certain amount of ownership is involved when I buy a license (non-exclusive, restricted, grant of use, as you put it), but the license for that particular version does not expire, as in the case of Waves, Ni, Arteries, and most software vendors, where you can SELL these licenses to a third party under the agreed conditions. So under these conditions, I consider that I do own these licenses.
Purrrfect Audio: Intel i7 7700k (Kabylake), 32Gig DDR4/2133, Windows 10x64 Pro, USB RME Babyface, Sonar Platinum Current
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/11 10:06:21
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Well just to be all legal about it, you don't own the intellectual property, but you have a license to use it.
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bz2838
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/11 10:28:49
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Anderton
Well just to be all legal about it, you don't own the intellectual property, but you have a license to use it.
I never said or thought I owned the intellectual property, but I do believe I own the License to use the property, to use and dispose of it as I see fit under the agreed conditions. I'm not trying to split hairs here, but if I buy an annual subscription to adobe Photoshop Cloud and other similar subscriptions, when my subscription ends, so do my rights of use, that's what I'm referring to. If the license does not expire, such as with Waves, NI, and others, I have no objection to buying into that if I can live with the terms and conditions of the licensing agreement.
Purrrfect Audio: Intel i7 7700k (Kabylake), 32Gig DDR4/2133, Windows 10x64 Pro, USB RME Babyface, Sonar Platinum Current
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bapu
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/23 14:44:34
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I sometimes wonder how many actual programmers (and yes I include Noel in on this, even though he's the CTO, IIRC) and QA people there are.
Probably doesn't really matter but if every poster of a "request/bug/problem" knew that there was a rather small pool of programmer vs. 100 programmers would they be more sensitive the list of known "bugs"?
I posit this because I assume it is a small pool of programmers and therefore even though I think my biggest aggravation/frustration/distaste is drum maps... I can see that they simply would not be higher priority than a hover car for the next release.
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