MachineClaw
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 11:18:47
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EPIC-ness sold separately.
I would probably buy a Cakewalk Sonar X Pro Complete package that included ALL the ProChannel plugins, but I can wait for sales. I have bought Sonar X1 Pro, X2 Pro, X3 Pro but I have yet to buy any of the separate ProChannel plugins.
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200bpm
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 13:32:57
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I think the idea is that as DAWS have matured, there is less and less reason to upgrade. It may be that a subscription model will be the only way for them to guarantee steady income and buffer against market trends/seasons/etc. With cheap daws like Reaper, pricing a full featured daw is difficult. Thankfully sonar is ahead of the others in UI features, but the others will catch up eventually and there will be even less to differentiate them.
I LIKE the idea of using old hardware and software. I think it would be really cool if I was still using X3 in ten years time. ALthough if they introduce touch enhancements I would be enticed to upgrade.
i7 4790K @ 4.8/1.325v Gigabyte Z97X-ud3h, 16GB DDR3 2300, RME UFX, Sonar 3Xe
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TerraSin
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 13:52:22
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MachineClaw
EPIC-ness sold separately.
I would probably buy a Cakewalk Sonar X Pro Complete package that included ALL the ProChannel plugins, but I can wait for sales. I have bought Sonar X1 Pro, X2 Pro, X3 Pro but I have yet to buy any of the separate ProChannel plugins.
If the store were smart enough to detect which plugins you already own and adjust the price accordingly, I would be down for that. I don't want to pay for plugins I already own.
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:01:21
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I'm glad to see the sarcasm die down. It's no fun to try and suggest ideas or insert hopeful food for thought only to have it be merely regarded as humor. I appreciate the humor, but it certainly downplays a (hopefully) good point.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Splat 
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:08:57
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Sarcasm implies some implied negativity and I didn't see that myself quite the opposite. Mind you I haven't read the whole thread either... There are a lot of posts and a lot of opinions!!! (that seems healthy to me).
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Paul P
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:16:40
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200bpm
I think the idea is that as DAWS have matured, there is less and less reason to upgrade. It may be that a subscription model will be the only way for them to guarantee steady income and buffer against market trends/seasons/etc.
Everyone seems to be forgetting the new user. If I were Cakewalk, that's the only one I'd be thinking about.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:28:01
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:48:50
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Great point, indeed. And I think that was a point Waves conceded to. Although it was in the form of WUP, I'm betting they realized they were stalled somewhat to work on VST3 and 64-Bit plug-ins (for example), so they couldn't spend much time on generating new plug-ins to sell and keep the cash flow coming in. I believe that having a steady income is better and easier on the books than trying to predict the outcome of a next release.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/07 20:53:30
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Paul P
Everyone seems to be forgetting the new user.
I can promise you that Cakewalk is not forgetting the new user. Having SONAR X3 for $99 with unlimited tracks, inserts, buses, video support, etc. has picked up a LOT of new users. New users are where to grab market share, not trying to convince someone they should give up their multi-thousand dollar investment in Pro Tools (and investment in the learning curve) and switch to SONAR.
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vmw
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 00:40:09
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OK for a quick word about subscription software and my limited experience with it. I am on the monthly subscription with Adobe and an annual rate. If you want out before your 12 months is up you must payout the remaining monthly subscriptions. CC2014 is constantly updated with fixes (am I a paying beta tester?) along with annoying things like insisting my TRIAL time is expired, which requires a login to fix the problem. The annoyances with the sub model of Adobe are becoming less buggy, notwithstanding the improvements I have actual firsthand knowledge of people going back to CS6 and a lot of anecdotal info others are doing it also. The people I am talking about all use Adobe for work I am in it until September 2015, then I must make a decision on what to do.
Many new software programs have released new versions that in combination with other programs and plugins can replicate much of the Photoshop functions. So while some expensive software programs have moved to the sub model it appears that Adobe have opened the door to other companies who just have a perpetual one off licence price. Of course you still have to pay for upgrades.
This is the dilemma cake will have to face - that is, customers moving to other software without a sub model.
Piracy and subscriptions - if you trawl through many a forum you will find reverse engineered latest versions of Adobe products along with full instructions on how to remove the sub programmes. Thus it appears as fast as Adobe make code changes the reversers release an illegal version, my point being subscription does not stop piracy, it is speculatively the opposite - increase piracy.
All of the above regarding subscription software is largely speculative and any change by cake would assume they have researched the model and we will have to wait and see what is the outcome of their research.
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dcasey
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 00:57:21
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Hey Cakewalk/Tascam/Gibson - whoever might be reading this stuff; I've been a Cakewalk customer since Pro Audio, and at this point a gentle nudge would send me into the arms of another vendor. Cakewalk moving to a subscription model would be more like a punch in the nose, and if I'm going to bleed - I might as well bleed all over Studio One or Pro Tools (for all the wrong reasons).
That should give you a good indication of what I think about a Cakewalk subscription. No thanks.
DAW: i7920, 9GB, Win7 x64 / Presonus Firestudio Project (2), Firestudio Tube, Monitor Station, Faderport, Sceptre S8's/ Frontier Design Tranzport / M-Audio Midisport 4x4 / Roland GR-55, GI-20, VG-8 / Novation 25 SL MKII / Alesis 720 DSP / Sonar X3 PE / Vienna Ensemble Pro / Voxengo / iZotope / NI / IK / eieio VSTi Server 1: AMD FX-8350, 16GB, Win7 x64 / Komplete / Vienna Ensemble Pro VSTi Server 2: AMD A6-3670K, 16GB, Win 7 x64 / Echo Gina24 / Vienna Ensemble Pro www.soundcloud.com/dannycasey
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webbs hill studio
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 01:03:03
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a dumb question,maybe,but,my DAW is an internet virgin,never been there.
under a subscription model will I need to be online at any point or will I still be able to download updates etc on my laptop,ensure they are clean,then transfer to my DAW?
thanks
tony
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Tom Riggs
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 03:39:12
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@ webbs
No one outside of Cake knows and every thing here is pure speculation. Some CakeWalkers have chimed in to calm the waters but as you see that has done little good.
I am going to wait and see what happens before I make any decisions.
i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed My Music My YouTube
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200bpm
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 05:55:04
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If they want to get new users and protect the old, what they could do is offer the BASIC version of sonar as a sub model, and producer version as a traditional purchase. The sub model would be like a pay to play demo. Better than a demo because you can keep using it over 30 days and it won't be crippled.
This would make it real easy for new people to try it out but would provide an avenue for traditional buyers, people who are comitted to the program. If I could try cubase for $10/month I would. I have loaded most of the available demos and between being crippled and the fact that if I want to keep working in them it requires a cash outlay, they are not enticing.
They could also provide incentive for people to buy producer and offer discounts for people who have paid into subscriptions.
At first I thought sub sounded like a scary departure, but as long as they continue to provide traditional sales version, it could work out. I wouldnt want someone "renting" the producer version however.
I think the rent model would benefit a company whose software is better than their market share.
i7 4790K @ 4.8/1.325v Gigabyte Z97X-ud3h, 16GB DDR3 2300, RME UFX, Sonar 3Xe
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azslow3
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 08:25:01
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"For $50 per hour subscription all your faders in SONAR are at best positions any time, once the period is over, you are forced to do that yourself..."
"Tired to record crappy guitar played by your 10 years old daughter? For $10 per minute subscription you get 'Super Rec' button on all your tracks producing perfect sounds coming from Cakewalk Forum Hosts!"
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 11:27:55
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webbs hill studio
a dumb question,maybe,but,my DAW is an internet virgin,never been there.
under a subscription model will I need to be online at any point or will I still be able to download updates etc on my laptop,ensure they are clean,then transfer to my DAW?
thanks
tony
Nobody knows. I'm sure there will be offline methods. However the idea of 'offline' being best for a DAW in terms of reliability, or for that matter anything else is slowly proving to be out of date... Sadly if you dont have an internet connection you will be left behind eventually...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 11:54:24
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Paul P
200bpm
I think the idea is that as DAWS have matured, there is less and less reason to upgrade. It may be that a subscription model will be the only way for them to guarantee steady income and buffer against market trends/seasons/etc.
Everyone seems to be forgetting the new user. If I were Cakewalk, that's the only one I'd be thinking about.
See review and reactions about Reason 8. It was for the new user. Cakewalk always throws in 3rd party stuff for the new user.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 11:59:25
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MachineClaw
EPIC-ness sold separately.
I would probably buy a Cakewalk Sonar X Pro Complete package that included ALL the ProChannel plugins, but I can wait for sales. I have bought Sonar X1 Pro, X2 Pro, X3 Pro but I have yet to buy any of the separate ProChannel plugins.
Only if they are the Cakewalk ones. I'm not always a fan of 3rd party software that has an authorization process unlike Cakewalk's or not even similar to their licensing.
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bapu
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 16:46:47
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CakeAlexS
Sadly if you dont have an internet connection you will be left behind eventually...
THAT! It is 2014 after all. Mind you, it might not be mandatory to be online to run the sub software (assuming it comes to fruition in any shape described in this entire thread) daily but could be required to get updates. If I know Cake (and I'm no expert) they probably would devise a dual system. Online to install. Offline to operate. Online to get updates. Funny thing is, I NEVER read the survey question(s) to mean that cake WILL go that way. But if they did I still suspect that they would devise it such that the sub would be about the same as annual upgrade fee (regardless of what number$ they used in their example).
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 18:39:28
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I don't know why you people keep talking about a sub. It's not a sub, it's a hovercar (although the Producer version has a hovercraft with a few more features). If you want the hovercar to function as a sub, you'll need to put in a feature request...and Cakewalk will need to make the doors a lot more airtight than they are now.
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Jonbouy
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 19:37:10
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bapu
Funny thing is, I NEVER read the survey question(s)
Yet you ALWAYS answer them? 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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jb101
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 20:16:50
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Jonbouy
bapu
Funny thing is, I NEVER read the survey question(s)
Yet you ALWAYS answer them?
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bapu
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 20:37:28
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jb101
Jonbouy
bapu
Funny thing is, I NEVER read the survey question(s)
Yet you ALWAYS answer them?
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 21:35:38
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Subscriptions: there are dozens of variations
Each model works for some people / businesses
Commitment to a 1 or 2 year subscription with monthly payments is exactly the same as most phone contracts. This is not a reasonable comparison to a software subscription.
Memberties: purchase the program and purchase a 1 year support contract.
If we do not renew the support contract the program does NOT become a pumpkin.
If we renew the support contract we get another year of "free" updates and support tickets.
This is the model CW managers should create for all of CW products.
-----------------------
And: License transfer: A major way to increase market share and reputation.
CW should charge $25 for license transfer. This becomes TOTAL profit.
New user does NOT get free support.
The new user is now on the mailing list available for promotions.
The number of CW software users increases. Great marketing.
If the software has been used for an upgrade the transferred license does NOT qualify for upgrade pricing.
It the license has NOT been used for an upgrade it DOES qualify for upgrade pricing.
All of this is in compliance with current policies.
Nearly ALL the programming for tracking license transfers is in place. Minimal cost to CW for new programming.
Everybody wins here.
CW gets a new users
CW gets profit from previously sold products
More users means more word-of-mouth
More users means more future sales
Marketing: less cost for new users, the biggest cost of advertising.
Drucker told us nearly 40 years ago that a proprietary market is less of a market than when purchasers have choice.
Allowing users to transfer licenses will increase CW market share and reputation, and increase profit.
CW should be one of the first to do this.
Everybody wins.
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 21:44:52
(permalink)
Oh, yeah.
X4a will be released on December 1st.
Just in time for making all the marketers, shippers, retailers, be crazy for 20 days.
totally a ridiculous expectation
when will X3f be released?
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bapu
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/08 21:57:27
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YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
Everybody wins here.
CW gets a new users
CW gets profit from previously sold products
More users means more word-of-mouth
More users means more future sales
Marketing: less cost for new users, the biggest cost of advertising.
Maybe I missed the part in your logic where the "old" user stays on board. Yes CW get a new user but also loses a user. For $25. That is not a win-win in my book. If I were CW I'd let the user who no longer needs the SW to fade into the sunset. I'd go after new users ALL THE TIME....... oh wait, that's what they do now, right?
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thomasabarnes
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/09 21:40:14
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"If I were CW I'd let the user who no longer needs the SW to fade into the sunset. I'd go after new users ALL THE TIME....... oh wait, that's what they do now, right?"
LMBO Bapu, you're someting else!
 "It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant. SONAR Platinum X64 (jBridge), Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit, Core i7 990X Extreme Edition Processor 3.46 GHz 6 Cores, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, Crucial Ballistix 24GB 1333MHz DDR3 @1333 MHz, TASCAM UH-7000, Behringer X-Touch, EVGA GTX 980TI Superclocked 6GB, 1TB Samsung EVO 850 SSD, 150GB, 320GB, 1TB 7200rpm HDDs
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 01:09:02
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dcasey
Hey Cakewalk/Tascam/Gibson - whoever might be reading this stuff; I've been a Cakewalk customer since Pro Audio, and at this point a gentle nudge would send me into the arms of another vendor. Cakewalk moving to a subscription model would be more like a punch in the nose, and if I'm going to bleed - I might as well bleed all over Studio One or Pro Tools (for all the wrong reasons).
That should give you a good indication of what I think about a Cakewalk subscription. No thanks.
Why do some people automatically assume that if Cakewalk was going to do something like a subscription model, it would be the crappiest, most customer-hostile model possible? Remember, this is a company that steadfastly refuses to use intrusive copy protection methods like dongles. It's a little disappointing a small company that trusts its customers (and put out five rapid-fire, free updates to X3) doesn't get some trust back in return. The software world is a tough place to carve out a piece of the pie. Cakewalk is the kind of company that understands the way to get a bigger slice of the pie is to...cook a better-tasting pie.
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Bflat5
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 02:04:01
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TomHelvey
brconflict
If the subscriber buys a year's activation, it would run, say $99/yr, $149/2yrs, $199/3yrs. Month-to-month would be, say $19.99/mo. ($479.76 for 24 mos.) You can see that compared to a one-time $399 for Producer, these look attractive. Sure, the long-term users would receive a discount, but you could attract many more occasional users to offset that discount, awarding the long-term users the higher appreciation.
btw, $12.99/mo. for Xn Studio and $9.99/mo. for basic Xn.
The software is downloaded and installed, but requires Internet access to validate subscription.
I've been a Cakewalk user for more than a decade and upgraded regularly whenever new versions came out. If Cakewalk moved to a subscription model, that's the last they'd ever hear from me. I refuse to use any DAW that doesn't provide a perpetual license model. Dongles are annoying enough, having software call home to see if it's still licensed is even worse. Subscription licensing is probably the single worst thing Cakewalk could possibly do and would most likely cause them to lose the majority of their loyal customers.
Exactly! I can see that being useful for people who want to try it out first, but not as the only way to use it. If that's what happens I too will move on to another DAW.
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/11/10 09:11:38
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I'll have to add a couple of points to the subscription argument. One, it's less of a burden than having to buy a $40 iLok or dongle, which most people detest. Other DAW's require that. Two, if a subscription model would perhaps extend support hours to 10PM Central at night and open on weekends. Or better, 24x7 support (you only need 1-2 late night agents), subscription would be nice. I've rarely, if ever had access to Tech Support during the day.
My apologies for suggesting this while Support people watch. But the truth is, I only gain access to my DAW after hours, since I have a day job in another industry. Having after hours phone or chat support would help me out of sticky situations on the spot. I'd also like to add the importance of WebEx. A Subscription model could help cover the expenses of these things.
For those newcomers, mentioned above, many of them are after-hours engineers or entrepreneurs. 24x7 WebEx support would reduce the amount of trolling and blasting on this forum by those same people who are not quite savvy in Sonar just yet. Add WebEx training resources for "Show me how to...", that's something else subscription prices can cover, perhaps. RTFM works in the Linux world, but this IS a business, with customers, right? Value-add.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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