backwoods
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 14:54:42
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Them's fighting words Brandon.
Lack of "Gapless" is very consp.icous in todays DAW market. You guys should really try and sort it out.
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stratman70
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 16:08:51
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jbow
So, SONAR may not be gapless and it does sound like something that would make working with SONAR a bit smoother, however, this isn't such a big deal in the overall scope of features a DAW brings. Do I want gapless audio? YES!!!! Does not having gapless audio now bother me? NO!!!!! Just one man's opinion
Make that two...
Julien
And me also.
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timidi
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 16:14:26
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LJB
Mind the gap. I do.
me too..
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whitealbum
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 16:20:55
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Hi Freddie, back to your "tweaks". Sadly, there is no improvement (change loop border, etc.) But this isn't so a big problem. What is bad now, if i switch between screensets, i get big gaps around one second, no audio, hold on. Any ideas are welcome!
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ba_midi
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 18:10:47
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bapu
That would change everything, eh Billy?
HAHA, so it would, Bapu, so it would :) Hmm, on second thought -- it may not change every thing - but it would change some thing :O :)
post edited by ba_midi - 2012/01/23 20:23:18
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ba_midi
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 18:18:07
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
This gets overstated in my opinion. Yes there are some specific areas where it can be better, but it's far from the lurching, stuttering behemoth it gets characterized as.
For instance, while I was working just recently I was playing a complete project back and wanted to do some tweaking. I switched over to ProChannel, inserted the Saturation Knob, dragged it to the beginning of the signal path, swapped out a compressor, turned them on, and then tweaked my settings. No gaps, glitches etc. This was at 1.5ms of latency. I can also do this with some synths and FX.
Now yes with some synths there is maybe a 1/2 sec audio drop while a synth is instantiated - and we'll try to better with this. But does it really destroy ones creative flow? Really? A 1/2 sec pause sucks out all the creative juices?
For live performance, yes it's a far more critical issue, but for composing and recording? The level of hyperbole about "gapless" is getting a but much IMO.
Now some may likely point to my comments as evidence that Cakewalk refuses to or is unable to improve SONAR in this regard. It's not the case. My comments are an attempt to put the while gapless conversation into perspective. To me the biggest gapping problem SONAR has is when moving loop points. But even then, it's not even close to something that would actually hinder my creativity.
WIth all due respect, I realize you and other Cake staffers will want to put the best spin you can on this, but the fact is that other DAWs simply handle things like inserting synths better and with no gapping. I agree that for live it's "more" critical, but to suggest that recording and composing needing gapless is "hyberbole" is --- well hyperbole LOL. Sometimes, depending on the project and already instantiated plugins, the gapping is quite a bit more than 1/2 sec. Frankly I'm used to Sonar's lack of gaplessness, so I deal with it. But other hosts simply do it better and have been doing it for a long time. I just want to keep the conversation balanced. I don't think it's wise to dismiss the talk of gaplessness as hyperbole. And I'm not one who feels it's a "showstopper" or "can't live without it" function. It is very much a feature/function I think would make a HUGE difference toward keeping a creative flow going, but I understand it's a tricky thing to implement in Sonar at this time. But - again -- I don't think it's hyperbole and I think it's not fair to dismiss the need for it, and it ends up dismissing the users who want to see it implemented (at least better than it is at the moment). I respect the position you're taking, Brandon, but it would be nice if you also respected our position as well, thank you.
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backwoods
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 20:15:33
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With submission bamidi: you just had to say "Gapless audio is not hyperbole" LOL
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ba_midi
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/23 20:24:41
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backwoods
With submission bamidi: you just had to say "Gapless audio is not hyperbole" LOL
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 02:51:23
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Ba Midi
I agree one hundred percent
Gapless is a necessity and cake are seriously missing out on what comes as standard with most DAWs. Reading the comments here by staff members and their total disregard of workflow functionality is steering me into another direction.
Very disappointed.
This is not high on their agenda and seems as if they are saying all is well with Sonar well, with not being trult gapless as other DAWs.
Yes it hinders workflow for many, for Audio guys it may not be a problem what with their stop start way of working,
Cake must also realise they are people who work to time scale (not myself) but at times I want to get around the issues that make Sonar less capable and therefore speed up my work. I do not want the DAW to be getting in the way. I would like to forget that I am working in a DAW or Sonar completely.
This doesn't happen much. Yes there is room for improvement and yes Sonar is a good DAW but lets face it, they're some great DAWs out there. In this race mediocre won't do!
So Sorry Brandon but what you have stated is not cutting the mustard here with many who have experienced other DAWs which are GAPLESS!
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Kreative
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 03:02:04
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Gapless is like having a four wheel drive, or a full set of teeth. I love my X1, but I also love my ARA and gapless DAW. I feel like I'm torn between two lovers. [But since I already paid for both, neither will be leaving me]
Windows 7 64 bit, Sony Vaio Laptop Q740, 8 GB, Sonar Producer X1d, Focusrite Scarlett 18i, Korg Pa500, M-audio 61 Radium Keystation. Using Omnisphere, Trilian, Komplete 8, Morphestra, Orchestral Essentials, Evolve, Orange Tree Guitars, Addictive Drums, BFD2, Melodyne Editor, Studio One 2, Ozone 5, FabFilter.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 03:43:22
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Flywheel
Ba Midi
I agree one hundred percent
Gapless is a necessity and cake are seriously missing out on what comes as standard with most DAWs. Reading the comments here by staff members and their total disregard of workflow functionality is steering me into another direction.
Very disappointed.
This is not high on their agenda and seems as if they are saying all is well with Sonar well, with not being trult gapless as other DAWs.
Yes it hinders workflow for many, for Audio guys it may not be a problem what with their stop start way of working,
Cake must also realise they are people who work to time scale (not myself) but at times I want to get around the issues that make Sonar less capable and therefore speed up my work. I do not want the DAW to be getting in the way. I would like to forget that I am working in a DAW or Sonar completely.
This doesn't happen much. Yes there is room for improvement and yes Sonar is a good DAW but lets face it, they're some great DAWs out there. In this race mediocre won't do!
So Sorry Brandon but what you have stated is not cutting the mustard here with many who have experienced other DAWs which are GAPLESS!
Oh now come on. I didn't disrespect or disregard anyone's workflow with what I said. "Total disregard for functionality?" Sheesh. As if I don't know what some of you mean or haven't "experienced gapless". This is exactly my point. IMO it's rather grossly overstated. That's my opinion - not some official stance of Cakewalk or indicative of future development. In fact, I was quite careful to say that my points were in no way meant to suggest that we don't understand or won't improve things. And yet...that's exactly what's being suggested. It shouldn't be disappointing. It's just my opinion. For me it's not so serious that it would actually personally stifle my creativity or make my music suffer. It's nice, sure, and in certain situations which I mentioned, yes necessary, but I don't believe it is the panacea of creativity it's sometimes characterized. Anyway, it's just a point of view. Some of you are forgetting we made Project5, which was virtually gapless - especially for the time. I get it. I'm just saying I think it gets put on a pedestal. Whether it's a"necessity" is a debatable point no? Perhaps there are scenarios where it is demonstrably so, of course. For me, tiny pauses when I'm instantiating only certain synths or latency introducing effects just doesn't really bug me. The worst for me would be changing loop points and screenset switching. I even mentioned the loop points in my previous post. You may feel it's crucial to your music making. That's ok. But lots of music has been made for many years without gapless DAWs. For me it's just a slight annoyance. I could lie and say otherwise but that would be no fun at all. 
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 03:44:15
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Gapless is like having a full set of teeth! Amazing statement  Kreative looks like if Cake refuse to provide this functionality.I will have to be torn between two lovers also! I totally sympathize with you Brandon but the heart sinks just a little when you made your first statement. I maybe on the mend with your future develoment statement. I really like my Sonar X1 but I hate feeling jealous :) So please fix my Sonah good boy with the sonah!
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 03:51:38
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Flywheel
Gapless is like having a full set of teeth!
Amazing statement
Kreative looks like if Cake refuse to provide this functionality.I will have to be torn between two lovers also!
I totally sympathize with you Brandon but the heart sinks just a little when you made your first statement. I maybe on the mend with your future develoment statement.
I really like my Sonar X1 but I hate feeling jealous :)
So please fix my Sonah good boy with the sonah!
That's cool. Believe me, we want you to be happy using SONAR and have it do everything you want. Hell, even I personally want that. And rest assured it's entirely understood at the Cake. I guess I just hate for people to put so much emphasis on it that people who don't even think about it or need it start thinking that for some reason they can't make music without it.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Scott Lee
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 04:07:46
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Once you go gapless, its hard to go back.. Really, its a drag (and drop? lol)
Not to say you can't make music as Brandon Ryan put it, but utilitilzing the creative flow without restrictions is just inspiring. Again, its about piece of mind, resolving technical hurdles striving for better musical compositions and software performance. When it works, and its a smooth process, it allows us composers to focus less on the software, and more on getting the job done quickly.
Best,
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whitealbum
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE in SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 04:28:09
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by Brandon: "Anyway, it's just a point of view. Some of you are forgetting we made Project5, which was virtually gapless - especially for the time. I get it. I'm just saying I think it gets put on a pedestal. Whether it's a"necessity" is a debatable point no? Perhaps there are scenarios where it is demonstrably so, of course. For me, tiny pauses when I'm instantiating only certain synths or latency introducing effects just doesn't really bug me. The worst for me would be changing loop points and screenset switching. I even mentioned the loop points in my previous post." Hi brandon, beside X1 i use Cubase 6 and Samplitude ProX. My experience is, that both are nearly gapless but no gapless. For example, if i switch off Fabfilter Pro-L, you'll get in Cubase 6 and in ProX as well an audio gap! But, Cubase and ProX are more "near gapless". If you switch between Screensets or change the loop points, No single gap. And this is important for me (if i insert a snyth while i playback and there is a gap, that didn't disturb me). Sadly, i get audio gaps in X1 if i change Loop Points or switch between screensets. Meanwhile i found out why i got gaps by swithcing the screensets. If there are in the multidock some functions like loop manager or marker, then Sonar X1 needs one second or more. If the multidock is "clean", than its smooth. I think, here are improvements possible as you said The tweaks that Freddie mentioned don't improve anything on my machine. mmmhh.. whitealbum
post edited by whitealbum - 2012/01/24 04:43:06
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Freddie H
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 07:24:14
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whitealbum
Hi Freddie, back to your "tweaks". Sadly, there is no improvement (change loop border, etc.) But this isn't so a big problem. What is bad now, if i switch between screensets, i get big gaps around one second, no audio, hold on. Any ideas are welcome!
Hi all! Great that it help improved the performance for some of you. To make one thing straight. My TWEAK improvement are mostly improved and focus at: 1. LOOPING without drop outs. 2 Playback the song from top to end with no drop outs. 3. Recording without drop outs. 4. Recording in LOOP without drop outs. 5 Improved CLICK/Metronome. It will not fix drop outs or click/crackle audio: *Change LOOPpoints during Playback *Change Screensets during Playback *Insert Plugins during Playback * Insert VST Instrument during playback.
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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whitealbum
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 08:30:56
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Freddie H
whitealbum
Hi Freddie, back to your "tweaks". Sadly, there is no improvement (change loop border, etc.) But this isn't so a big problem. What is bad now, if i switch between screensets, i get big gaps around one second, no audio, hold on. Any ideas are welcome!
Hi all!
Great that it help improved the performance for some of you.
To make one thing straight. My TWEAK improvement are mostly improved and focus at:
1. LOOPING without drop outs.
2 Playback the song from top to end with no drop outs.
3. Recording without drop outs.
4. Recording in LOOP without drop outs.
5 Improved CLICK/Metronome.
It will not fix drop outs or click/crackle audio:
*Change LOOPpoints during Playback
*Change Screensets during Playback
*Insert Plugins during Playback
* Insert VST Instrument during playback.
Thanks for clarification! Your "first" 5 points work on my pc without doing any changes in the preferences ;-) Change Screensets during playback is also no problem, if the mutlidock is empty, with inspector on the left and browser on the right, no problems as well. BUT, if i dock loop manager or marker or something else on the multidock , there will be audio gaps between 1-2 seconds UMPHF! So, i'm waiting for improvements.
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 09:11:54
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I am sure those are improvements (named above) but I tend to think if you have the gapless licked, you almost have what you could class as a stable audio engine.
I think that is the point, more than, will somethings work now or won't they?
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 09:15:36
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I do hope that X1D will go some way to making it a bit more wo rk able.
A n d a bit less fr ust rat in g to u se.
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JClosed
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 09:36:31
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Oh man... All those years it was no problem at all, and now -out of the blue- Sonar is suddenly almost useless? Seems to me some people are just looking for a stick to beat... something-whatever it is... Sonar is in my opinion no stage-performing software like Live (although it is possible), but more mastering orientated. In that last case gapeless is not really needed (and some plug-ins like perfect space introduce so much latency gapeless is impossible or useless). Anyway - gapeless is nice but not having that is (again in my opinion) no showstopper.
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Muziekschuur at home
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 10:13:25
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It totally stopped me making my music. Till I hit the play button again offcourse...
Cakewalk Sonar Platinum Windows 7 32bit & 64bit (dualboot) Gigabyte mobo Intel dual quad 9650 & 4GB Ram RME DIGI9636 & Tascam DM24. M-audio Rbus & SI-24 Alesis Pro active 5.1 & Radford 90 transmissionline monitors. Roland RD-150 piano Edirol UM-880 & alesis fireport. Remote recording Alesis HD-24 & Phonic MRS 1-20. P.A. D&R Dayner 29-8-2 & behringer MX8000 (& racks) Rackpc Sonar Platinum with win10 AMD X6 1055T, 16GB Ram Dell inspiron 17R 6gb ram W10 two SSD's Sonar Plat.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 10:38:26
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Man, from reading this forum I wonder how the Beatles (or any great artist) made any music at all.
You know....with waiting for that tape to rewind and all....
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Freddie H
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 10:39:52
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whitealbum
Freddie H
whitealbum
Thanks for clarification!
Your "first" 5 points work on my pc without doing any changes in the preferences ;-)
Change Screensets during playback is also no problem, if the mutlidock is empty, with inspector on the left and browser on the right, no problems as well.
BUT, if i dock loop manager or marker or something else on the multidock , there will be audio gaps between 1-2 seconds UMPHF!
So, i'm waiting for improvements.
Are you using MULTI-Screen Monitors setup example 2 monitors? I have still sometimes glitch in audio changing ScreenSets if I have example Console View on Second Monitor. 
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 11:11:37
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 Inserting a synth while audio playback is in progress or insert a plugin during playback...SONAR may glitch! NO GAPLESS AUDIO!!!
I have used DAWs for over 20 years time and I have never had a situation that this were needed or wanted feature? Even if it was possible with SONAR I will never use it. It works perfectly well for me to STOP Playback and then insert an VST-Instrument or PLUGIN. (*Insert Plugins in FX:s bin still work in SONAR X1, if no latency compensation are used by the plugin)
Even IF It WAS "possible" to ADD VST-I or VST-PLUGINS it will not be in sync until you STOP the audio-engine and hit play again. It will always end up in wrong timecode even though you haven't notice any "sync droup" outs. As far as I know, "technically", no latency compensation system can work correctly under those surcomstances.  It is physically impossible to compensate TIME of the FUTURE that were in the PAST before the PAST? If you do that you get the Nobel prize. Einstein time and space!  As far as I know, it is not possible to compensate latency compensation "ON FLY" in Cubase, LOGIC, Samplitude, Pro Tools either, so why should it work in SONAR X1?
post edited by Freddie H - 2012/01/24 11:37:08
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 11:30:15
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I understand what everyone is saying it is not important.
Progress is not a problem. lets keep things the same infact why not go back to tape. I wonder if the boys at Roland would like that as an idea.
Infact why use desk tops lets go back to the IBM and BBC computers.
Hmmm no it's not important.
I need to make a request as I am having issues with sync and latency issues which I don't have with other software come to think of it. I hope X1D makes a difference.
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whitealbum
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 11:35:10
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Freddie H
whitealbum
Freddie H
whitealbum
Thanks for clarification!
Your "first" 5 points work on my pc without doing any changes in the preferences ;-)
Change Screensets during playback is also no problem, if the mutlidock is empty, with inspector on the left and browser on the right, no problems as well.
BUT, if i dock loop manager or marker or something else on the multidock , there will be audio gaps between 1-2 seconds UMPHF!
So, i'm waiting for improvements.
Are you using MULTI-Screen Monitors setup example 2 monitors? I have still sometimes glitch in audio changing ScreenSets if I have example Console View on Second Monitor.
Yes, i'm using multi-screen Monitors, one screenset is track view left and console view right. The same here, sometimes there's a little glitch (first i didn't here it), but without your tweaks. I'll try the tweaks again. maybe... btw: I test this behaviour also in Cubase 6, absolutely no glitches if i switch the screensets or change the loop points, but a big gap if i switch on the Fabfilter Pro-L as i stated before, but this is logical, because of the PDC, and this not a big problem.
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Freddie H
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 11:36:38
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Flywheel
I understand what everyone is saying it is not important.
Progress is not a problem. lets keep things the same infact why not go back to tape. I wonder if the boys at Roland would like that as an idea.
Infact why use desk tops lets go back to the IBM and BBC computers.
Hmmm no it's not important.
I need to make a request as I am having issues with sync and latency issues which I don't have with other software come to think of it. I hope X1D makes a difference.
Of course I agree on the timing and sync need to be approved in SONAR X1 but it's good to have in mind what are physically possible
post edited by Freddie H - 2012/01/24 11:43:48
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 11:42:50
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whitealbum
Freddie H
whitealbum
Freddie H
whitealbum
Thanks for clarification!
Your "first" 5 points work on my pc without doing any changes in the preferences ;-)
Change Screensets during playback is also no problem, if the mutlidock is empty, with inspector on the left and browser on the right, no problems as well.
BUT, if i dock loop manager or marker or something else on the multidock , there will be audio gaps between 1-2 seconds UMPHF!
So, i'm waiting for improvements.
Are you using MULTI-Screen Monitors setup example 2 monitors? I have still sometimes glitch in audio changing ScreenSets if I have example Console View on Second Monitor.
Yes, i'm using multi-screen Monitors, one screenset is track view left and console view right. The same here, sometimes there's a little glitch (first i didn't here it), but without your tweaks. I'll try the tweaks again. maybe...
btw: I test this behaviour also in Cubase 6, absolutely no glitches if i switch the screensets or change the loop points, but a big gap if i switch on the Fabfilter Pro-L as i stated before, but this is logical, because of the PDC, and this not a big problem.
Great! I have "POPs/clicks" changing Screensets here too. The TWEAK doesn't fix that. Yes agree with Cubase, I like that Cakewalk-team aim on fixing that in SONAR too so that work perfectly with out dropouts, glitch/clicks noise. That had been very helpful and useful indeed.
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Flywheel
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 12:05:13
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I thought I was the only one Freddie [:D)
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Re:Tip of the day! How you get GAPLESS-AUDIO-ENGINE with SONAR X1!
2012/01/24 12:17:58
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Freddie H
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Freddie H
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Freddie H
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Thanks for clarification!
Your "first" 5 points work on my pc without doing any changes in the preferences ;-)
Change Screensets during playback is also no problem, if the mutlidock is empty, with inspector on the left and browser on the right, no problems as well.
BUT, if i dock loop manager or marker or something else on the multidock , there will be audio gaps between 1-2 seconds UMPHF!
So, i'm waiting for improvements.
Are you using MULTI-Screen Monitors setup example 2 monitors? I have still sometimes glitch in audio changing ScreenSets if I have example Console View on Second Monitor.
Yes, i'm using multi-screen Monitors, one screenset is track view left and console view right. The same here, sometimes there's a little glitch (first i didn't here it), but without your tweaks. I'll try the tweaks again. maybe...
btw: I test this behaviour also in Cubase 6, absolutely no glitches if i switch the screensets or change the loop points, but a big gap if i switch on the Fabfilter Pro-L as i stated before, but this is logical, because of the PDC, and this not a big problem.
Great!
I have "POPs/clicks" changing Screensets here too. The TWEAK doesn't fix that.
Yes agree with Cubase, I like that Cakewalk-team aim on fixing that in SONAR too so that work perfectly with out dropouts, glitch/clicks noise. That had been very helpful and useful indeed.
You're welcome Meanwhile i found that out, it doesn't fix that. If Cakewalk will fix the clicks-behaviour with switching screensets and loop points , for me it will be alright. On the other hand i understand users who wants to need complete gapless because of live using. Maybe its better for them to use another DAW
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